City Council - Government Operations Committee Hearing on Docket #1432

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For the record, my name is Gabriella Coletta Zapata, District 1 City Councilor, and I'm the chair of the Boston City Council Committee on Government Operations. Today is October 28, 2025, and the exact time is 2.09. This hearing is being recorded. It is also being livestreamed at boston.gov forward slash shitty dash council dash tv and broadcast on Xfinity channel 8, RCN channel 82, and Fios channel 964. Written comments may be sent to the committee email at ccc.go at boston.gov and will be made part of the record and available to all Councillors. Public testimony will be taken in the middle of this hearing and at the end of this hearing, or excuse me, at the beginning, middle, and end. Individuals will be called on in the order in which they signed up and will have two minutes to testify. If you are interested in testifying in person, please be sure to add your name to the sign-up sheet near the entrance of the chamber. If you are looking to testify virtually, please email our central staff liaison, Megan, at meagan.c-o-r-u-g-e-d-o at Boston.gov for the link. and your name will be added. Today's hearing is on docket 1432, an ordinance regarding the safety and efficacy of commercial autonomous vehicle operations relative to workers, emergency first responders, and residents in the City of Boston. This matter was sponsored by Councilors Henry Santana, Aaron Murphy, and Ed Flynn and was referred to the committee on August 6, 2025. Today, I'm joined by my colleagues in order of arrival, Councilor Henry Santana, Councilor Louijeune, Councilor Flynn, Councilor Murphy, Pepén, and Councillor Fitzgerald. I'm going to go to the lead and co-sponsors for any opening remarks, and then we'll go through the agenda and welcome our first panel. Councillor Santana, you have the floor.

Good afternoon. Thank you, Chair, and good afternoon to my colleagues. Good afternoon to everyone here in the chamber. I really love seeing the chamber full of our unions, of our workers here in the city of Boston, and proud to have you here. I am here to speak in support of the ordinance I introduced alongside Councillor Murphy and Councillor Flynn to study the real-world impacts of autonomous vehicles before they operate commercially here in Boston. This ordinance is not about opposing innovation. It's about ensuring that innovation serves our city rather than putting our workers and their families at risk. Tens of thousands of workers across Massachusetts turn a key to earn a living. While rideshare and taxi drivers may be the first to lose their jobs, allowing commercial robotaxis could create a slippery slope that puts countless other transportation workers at risk of displacement. These are more than just labour costs to be cut. They are parents paying rent, neighbours buying local, and taxpayers supporting local economies. This ordinance calls for a public study of autonomous vehicles impacts on jobs, local businesses, traffic, and public safety. It also establishes an advisory board made up of labor leaders, small business owners, city officials, and transportation experts. These are the voices that Boston knows best. These are the people who keep our city moving every day. Boston refuses to be a testing ground for unproven technology still learning how to navigate our streets, Our winters and our community safely. These people who live and work here are not tools for experimentation in the name of profits. We must ask the hard questions before letting driverless cars onto our streets. Who truly benefits? And who pays the price? How will local jobs be affected? What are the implications for public safety, small businesses, and our city's economy? Boston has always led with careful, thoughtful decision making. We innovate responsibly. This ordinance is in line with our values. It ensures commercial robotaxis are introduced after careful study with the people of Boston at the table, not at our expense. I urge the Council to support this ordinance, to put workers, safety, and local businesses first, and to make sure Boston is a model for responsible innovation. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor Santana. Councillor Murphy?

Thank you thank you chair for hosting this meeting but more importantly thank you to everyone who's filled the chamber today I was with you all about an hour ago outside on City Hall Plaza at the rally and especially to the app drivers themselves, but the unions who are standing behind them. Just to name a few, I know there's more, but Teamsters, Local 25, 32BJ, the App Drivers Union, Machinists Union, IBEW 2222, all of us coming together to make sure that we are sticking up for the men and women who need to make sure that your voices are heard. Your message is clear. Boston workers, families and first responders deserve a seat at the table before driverless technology changes our streets and our livelihoods. This ordinance is about balance. It's about ensuring innovation doesn't come at the expense of jobs, safety, or accountability. Right now, autonomous vehicles are being tested and deployed in cities across the country, often without proper oversight, public input or understanding of the local impacts. We've already seen reports from other states of collisions, confusions for first responders, and job losses in communities that can least afford them. In Boston, we're taking a different approach. We're saying before any company puts autonomous vehicles on our streets for commercial use, the people of Boston deserve answers. We need to understand how will this affect the thousands of rideshare and delivery drivers who depend on this work. How will our small businesses that support these drivers be impacted? And how will our emergency responders, our police, fire, EMS, safety interact with these vehicles in high pressure situations? This ordinance creates a framework rooted in accountability, transparency, and worker protection. It requires a public independent study, not a corporate promise, before any driverless operation can begin. It creates a labor and small business impact advisory board that includes voices from the worker empowerment cabinet, transportation officials, public safety departments, and of course, and always should be, organized labor at the table. Most importantly, it requires that no autonomous vehicle operates in Boston without a human safety operator behind the wheel. because public safety is not negotiable. Boston has always been a leader in innovation, but we've also been a city that stands up for our working people, and this hearing is about making sure we remain both. So looking forward to this hearing and thank you again for being here. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Murphy.

Councillor Flynn.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to you, Madam Chair, and to Councillor Santana to Councilor Murphy for working on this proposal, ensuring the voices of working men and women are heard and respected. I'd like to start off by saying this hearing is about making sure innovation doesn't negatively impact workers, steamroll workers, jeopardize public safety, undermine our local economy. We need to be asking what this impact will have on the residents of Boston. Before I begin, like Councilor Murphy and Council Santana, I do want to recognize the organized labor that's here, community partners, Community Labor United, Greater Boston Labor Council, and so many unions. I also want to acknowledge advocates for persons with disabilities that are here as well, and also want to recognize and thank constituents many from the Chinatown community including the Chinese Progressive Association that's also here. Rideshare drivers who are trying to unionize and make up 40,000 workers in Boston spoke recently on pouring their savings into vehicles purchased only to be threatened by AVs. Union leaders rejected their skilled, hardworking drivers being replaced by these autonomous vehicles. Rightfully so. The National Highway Safety Transportation Administration reported that Waymo, the current leader of Autonomous Vehicles was involved in 200 crashes between 2021-2024. 31 resulted in injuries. This past May, Mayo's technology field, as they recalled, about 1,200 vehicles Safety is a critical part of this discussion. Boston is one of the oldest cities in the country. Narrow streets, one-ways, alleys, and they lack a traditional grid and many more. Our streets are also congested now with the recent addition of Mopeds, autonomous vehicles have in my place, don't have a place in the city of Boston. I'm very concerned about the impact it has on public safety, pedestrian safety, and I don't like to see jobs being taken away from skilled workers that are trying to support their families. Thank you Madam Chair.

Thank you, Councillor Flynn. I just want to note that we've been joined by Councillor Breadon and Councillor Mejia. Who came first? I'm sorry. Breadon and then Mejia. Okay, great. And just a reminder, we love enthusiasm and we love participation in local democracy. Pursuant to council rules, there will be no demonstration of approval or disapproval or signs. So thank you so much for your understanding. We appreciate you. Again, thank you so much for being here. I do want to recognize that we received a letter from the administration. They were invited here and they sent this letter. So I would like to read it into the record and then welcome our first panel for their testimony. Thank you for inviting us to the hearing held by the Government Operations Committee on Docket 1432, an ordinance regarding the safety and efficacy of commercial autonomous vehicle operations. relative to workers, emergency first responders, and residents in the city of Boston, and inviting residents, labor unions, advocates, and technology companies to be a part of this important conversation. As members of the administration testified at a hearing on July 24, 2025 for Docket 1141, in order for a hearing to evaluate autonomous vehicle operations in Boston, we submit this summary of previous statements. and look forward to reviewing testimony from the public. Chief of Streets Yasha Franklin-Hodge testified about the safety of Waymo technology as well as the potential disruption it could bring. Chief Franklin Hodge specifically raised concerns about Waymo's ability to navigate first responders on Boston streets, construction zones, wintery conditions, and the need for Waymo to prove its capabilities in the context of our city streets. He also discussed questions around Waymo's ability to serve all Bostonians, particularly those with disabilities. Senior Labor Advisor Lou Mandarini testified about the administration's concerns that Waymo's operations could undercut rideshare drivers working for services like Uber and Lyft. In particular, Senior Advisor Mandarini flagged that the First in the Nation collective bargaining rights that rideshare drivers won in 2024 ballot initiative. As a city, we must continue to stand up for our residents' rights. Shinpei Sei, Chief Research and Data Officer, testified about the research and data from Waymo's introduction in other American cities and our desire to be able to closely evaluate the impact of their operations here in Boston. The full administration testimony can be viewed on YouTube. We look forward to continued collaboration with the City Council, residents, and stakeholders on this issue. Sincerely, Claire Kelly. Director of Intergovernmental Relations. Now we're going to transition to hear testimony from drivers. So I would love to have Mike Ortiz from the Teamsters, Victoria Acosta, App Drivers Union, Abby O'Brien from the Teamsters, Al Potter from the After Hours Union, Jack Meyer from the Teamsters, Juan Felipe from the App Drivers Union come up and take some seats here. So we will hear testimony from them. This is the testimony slash panel hybrid. And then immediately following that, We'll hear from their union representatives, where my colleagues will have the opportunity to ask their representatives questions. We'll go to public testimony because the list is long, and then we'll go to the autonomous vehicle panel, and then again for public testimony. Please welcome to the chambers. Thank you, thank you. Just as they're coming down to the floor, just a reminder, pursuant to Council rules, no demonstration of approval, disapproval, or signs. Thank you so much for understanding, and my amazing colleague, Councilor-at-Large Henry Santana, will translate into Spanish.

Buenas tardes. Lo que el aconsejal dijo es que los letreros que tenemos, apreciamos que ustedes estén aquí, pero los letreros no se pueden enseñar. Entonces, si lo pueden bajar, por favor, con respeto, pero muchas gracias por estar aquí.

Thank you, thank you, Councilor Santana. And we've also been joined by Vice Chair Weber. Okay, seeing that you're first on my list, we'll go to Mike Ortiz from the Teamsters and then Victoria from the Amtrak Association. You have the floor, thank you.

Good afternoon. My name is Mike Ortiz. I am a Teamster Waste Driver at Republic Services. Last summer, as many of you remember, my coworkers and I went on strike. After two months, we won that strike and secured massive wage increases. This had made it easier for me to pay for rent, buy groceries, and support my family. But now Teamsters, face a different threat, driverless vehicles. Big tech companies that are pushing this won't stop until they've automated every driving job in the state. Right now Waymo is coming for our brothers and our sisters in the app driver union. Pretty soon big techs will come for delivering freight, sanitation, and everything else. This isn't about innovation. This is about who gets to have to put food on their tables and roof over their heads. I've been a professional driver for 20 years. This is all I ever known. I poured everything into it to provide for my family. What happens if my job disappears? What happens to the workers in their 40s and 50s who can't find another job with the same pay and benefits? What happens to the neighborhoods that rely on union jobs to survive? When you replace people with machines, you just don't cut a job. You cut healthcare, pensions, mortgages, tuitions, toys for children for the holidays, Republic Services thought nothing of spending tens of millions of dollars to fight their own workers when they went on strike. They wouldn't think nothing of eliminating our jobs altogether. So to the members of this body who supported us during our strike, I am eternally grateful. I am asking for your support once again. Protect every driver who's working hard and support their families. Vote in favor of the ordinance. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Please, no approval. Please, no signs of approval or disapproval. Please, thank you. Victoria and then Abby.

Good afternoon.

My name is Victoria Costa, and I am a proud member of the UpDrivers Union.

Les pido que consideren las consecuencias de permitir que los taxis robot circulen por nuestras calles. Tenemos que pensar más allá de la innovación y la estadística de la seguridad. Debemos considerar cómo estas máquinas amenazan la estabilidad de los trabajadores de nuestras familias y de las comunidades a las que pertenecemos.

I'm asking you to consider the consequences of allowing robotaxis onto our streets. We have to think beyond innovation and safety statics. We need to consider how these machines treat the stability of workers, our families, and the communities that we are part of.

Cuando los conductores perdemos ingreso, toda la economía local lo sufre. Las gasolineras, los lavadores de autos, los restaurantes nocturnos, la cafetería y las bodegas. Nosotros dependemos de ellos y ellos dependen de nosotros. Gastamos nuestro dinero en nuestro vecindario y un carro robot no comprará café, no dejará propina y no apoyará los pequeños negocios de nuestra comunidad.

When drivers lose income, our whole local economy suffers. Gas stations, car washes, late night restaurants, coffee shops, and corner stores. We depend on them and they depend on us. We spend money in our neighborhoods. A robot car does not buy coffee. It doesn't tip. It doesn't support small businesses.

Pero no se trata solo de la economía, se trata de las personas que cada día servimos a nuestros vecinos, a veces los pasajeros, especialmente los mayores. Nos dicen que somos las únicas personas con las que han hablado todo el día. I've seen people cry in my backseat, and I've listened to them, and I've comforted them, and I've made sure that they get home safely. The robots Pueden ser eficientes pero nunca entenderán lo significativo que es para la gente.

But it's not just about economy. It's about people every day. We serve our neighbors. Sometimes passengers, especially older passengers, tell us we're the only people they'll speak to all day. I have people break down in my backseat and I listen, comfort them, and make sure they go home safely. Robot may not be efficient, but they cannot understand and appreciate what we mean to the people.

Si dejamos entrar a los taxis robot, aunque sea un poco, corremos el riesgo de perder lo que hace que nuestra ciudad funcione y lo que nos mantiene conectado. Tengo una familia que mantener y desde que escuché que Whitman podría llegar a Boston, me preocupa. ¿Qué haré si pierdo mis ingresos?

If we give robotaxis even a small opening, we risk losing what make our city run and keep us connected. I have a family to support. Even since I heard about Waymo coming to Boston, I stress over what happened if I lose my income.

Pero lo que me da esperanza es nuestra solidaridad. Conductores, Camioneros, Bomberos, Choferes de autobuses unidos para proteger nuestros trabajos y nuestra ciudad. Estoy orgullosa de mi sindicato. y agradecida por nuestro movimiento laboral y esperanzada de que la ciudad haga lo correcto y se ponga de nuestro lado. Gracias.

Thank you, Abby. Excuse me, Victoria. We'll now go to Abby and then Alfred. Oh, I'm sorry. Please, go ahead.

I apologize.

It's okay.

Good afternoon. My name is Abigail O'Brien, and I'm a paramedic at Armstrong Ambulance.

Would you mind? I'm so sorry. That was my bad. Can we just make sure that she translates for Victoria? It's okay. It's okay.

Apologies.

But the only thing that have give me hope is how we have united. Drivers struck fighters. Truckers, Fighters, and Bus Drivers to raise our voice and protect our jobs and city. Give Me Hope is our solidarity. Drivers, truckers, firefighters, and bus drivers standing together to protect our jobs and our city. I'm proud of standing with my union, grateful for our labor movement, and hopeful that the city will do the right thing and stand with us. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Go ahead, Abby. Actually before you start, I know that there's a lot of people here. If we can please keep the entrances clear for folks that need accommodations, I would appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Go ahead, Abby. Thank you. My name is Abigail O'Brien and I'm a paramedic at Armstrong Ambulance and a proud member of the Teamsters Local 25. I've worked in emergency medical services for about four and a half years and I regularly transport patients to Boston hospitals, which are some of the best in the world. From the time someone calls 911, we aim to get on scene in six minutes and we're often there much sooner. My patients are people suffering from heart attacks, seizures, strokes, choking, or overdoses. They may only have one or two minutes before they stop breathing or their heart stops beating. Even a 15 or 30 second delay can mean the difference between life and death. When we respond with lights and sirens, drivers make quick, common sense decisions to pull out of the way. You've probably done this, pulling into an intersection or up past a parked car. Sliding into the opposite lane or driving forward on a narrow one-way street to let an ambulance pass by. It's common sense, but autonomous vehicles don't have common sense. We know this because in other cities they've caused accidents and delayed first responders. Snow makes everything harder for both us and other drivers on the road. Making way for an ambulance in a blizzard requires human judgment, not algorithms. Earlier this week, when Waymo's product lead for weather was asked if vehicles would be ready for winter operations, his first response was, ha ha, good question. For Waymo to even be testing in Boston when their cars can't handle winter weather is ridiculous. If autonomous vehicles block us, freeze in place, or don't know how to yield to emergency vehicles, they could delay our lifesaving measures and kill people. This isn't theoretical. It is what I face every day. Keep trained human operators behind the wheel. Lives depend on it. Thank you.

Thank you, Abby. Alfred, Jack, and then Juan.

Yes, good afternoon, counselors and my brothers and sisters in labor. Buenas tardes, consejeros y hermanos y hermanas del grupo de trabajo. My name is Alfred Potter. I've been a rideshare driver in Boston for 11 years and I'm a member of the App Drivers Union. Let me start with how proud I am of Boston. Under the leadership of Mayor Wu and his council, we're standing up to Trump's administration's attacks on immigrant communities, but we need to stand up on every front. Permítame decirles primero que orgulloso me siento de Boston y bajo el mandato de la alcaldesa Wu y este consejo nos paramos ante los asuntos de Trump sobre sus ataques en las comunidades inmigrantes. The tech CEOs who bankrolled the second term are the same ones who want to come to our city to test imperfect technology. make their money and run away with the bag. Not here. Not in our city. Our jobs, our communities, and the safety of our streets are too important. Los. Executive Officers of Technology who have taken all the money in this second period want to come here to test imperfect technology, make their money and go with it. Not here. Robotaxis don't just threaten our livelihoods, they threaten to erode the human care, connection, and insight that no robot can replicate. Robotaxis not only threaten our lives, they threaten to corrode human care, connection, and the vision that robots cannot replicate. Recently I navigated the maze of Mass General to pick up a 90-year-old man with a walker and his wife. In the middle of the ride, he had to relieve himself. I overheard their conversation, pulled over, and helped him to a discreet place on the side of the road. He got home with dignity and in his wife's words, no one else would have done that. to pick up a 90-year-old man with a walker and his wife. In the middle of the trip, he had to go to the bathroom and I heard his conversation. I stopped on the road and he was able to do his job. That's what real drivers do. We adapt, we protect, we care. A pre-programmed car won't do any of that. I'm not against innovation. But innovation should lift people up, not leave them behind. Robotaxis don't pay taxes. They don't raise families here. They don't make moral judgments when someone's in trouble. This isn't about public safety only. It's about profits. Profits that won't get reinvested into our communities, but instead routed straight to Silicon Valley executives. Robotaxis don't pay taxes. They don't have their families here. They don't raise their families here. They don't make moral judgments when someone has problems. This is not just about road safety or public safety. It's about the profits, profits that will not be reinvested in our communities, but taken directly to the executives of Silicon Valley. We can't take local people out of the equation. So I urge you, slow this down. Ask who it really serves. because it's not drivers or transportation workers who make our city move and it's not people who rely on us every day. Thank you very much. Muchas gracias.

Thank you.

Good afternoon. My name is Jack Mayer. I've been a Teamster for 31 years, and I work for UPS as a package car driver. I'm here today because I'm deeply concerned about the safety and livelihood of our communities if Waymo is allowed to operate in Boston. I've driven the same delivery routes for years, and there's simply no substitute for a human behind the wheel. Every day I use my judgment to scan for dangers. I know that if a ball rolls into the street, a small child isn't far behind. No robot taxi can match the split-second decisions a human being makes. It's not just about navigation either. A few days ago, while on my route, I spotted a man collapsed on the ground. He was unconscious and unresponsive, and it became clear that he had overdosed. I stayed with him, flagged down a homeowner who called 911. When the first responders arrived, they administered Narcan. Had I not seen him and acted quickly, he may not have survived. To me, a person, to Waymu, an obstacle to avoid. I also have real relationships with the people on my route. They trust that I'll drive carefully through their neighborhoods and look out for their kids. The sense of responsibility and community isn't something you can program into a robot. Waymo is starting with passengers, but it's only a matter of time before big tech companies come from jobs like mine. Waymo competitor Zoox is owned by Amazon, and it has a prototype for driverless package delivery vehicles. This will be devastating to thousands of delivery drivers in the Boston area just like me. People who pay taxes, send their kids to public schools, and play critical roles in the fabric of our communities. Introducing driverless vehicle here is a risk to public safety Thank you. Thank you. And Juan.

Would you mind providing a microphone for him?

Thank you, sir. Good afternoon, councilors, staff, fellow union members, and fellow drivers. My name is Juan Felipe and I am a proud member of the Ab Driver Unions. Waymo and all the driverless cars are a real hazard to our streets, to our jobs, and to our communities. Other cities have been caught off guard by robotaxis. In San Francisco, Waymo grabbed nearly 30% of the drive share market in just 20 months. A Waymo was recently pulled over after making an illegal return, but police were stumped to find no driver to ticket. We need to consider who pays the price for that. Boston has a chance to be proactive, to hit the brakes and ask the hard questions before it's too late. We have to do something, and we will do something. We won't let them take our jobs so easily. The ADU is the first ready-share driver's union in the country, and we are not alone in this fight. The whole labor movement is standing with us, because if robots Take our job today, tomorrow it could be the thousand more who turn the key for a living with their livelihoods in the line. We are not against technology. Technologies is how we can make a living. Uber and Lyft created new jobs, a new way of working, and while some were skeptical of the technology, we adapted. So the opportunity and survive the change. But driverless cars like Waymo are different. They don't create opportunities for our neighbors. They erase it. I recently drove a professor who told me, there is power in science. It might not be a bad idea. And I told him, well, maybe. But our city is not prepared to have thousands of drivers out of work. Each driver has a family to feed. We are part of an ecosystem from the barber shop to the bodega that depends on us. He paused and said, I never thought of it. I never thought that way. I never thought about the human impact. Boston has an advantage. We have seen what happened elsewhere. Now we have the responsibility to protect our city, our jobs, and our neighbors. Let's be an example. Thank you.

Thank you so much. I just want to thank all of you for taking the time to be here, for your advocacy, and for telling us your story. We felt like it was important to start with the driver's perspective. I can speak for myself and maybe all of us when I say that we appreciate all the contributions of workers and unions in our city. So I just want to thank our union brothers and sisters for being here today and thank you all so much for your testimony. Appreciate you. And now we're going to transition to your union representatives. So we'll call on Autumn Weintraub from SEIU 32BJ to come down. Steve South from the Teamsters, Local 25. Mike Vardabedian from the Machinist Union, Fabrizio da Silva from the UFCW 1445. I believe this person is here. Mr. Salmontero from the App Drivers Union. Abdiaziz. Okay, and we have Jack, you're taking Fabrizio's spot. Yeah. Okay. Jack Kensley, right?

Close enough.

Okay. What is it?

Kenslaw.

Kenslaw, okay. Thank you.

Sounds good. Thanks.

Thank you so much for being here.

Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for holding this hearing today on this very important ordinance. And hello to our fellow drivers and union members from across Boston. My name is Autumn Weintraub, and I am here with the App Drivers Union, which is a joint union formed by the International Association of Machinists and 32BJ-SEIU. and we're representing thousands of rideshare drivers, app drivers across the state for the first time in history are on the cusp of winning their union. Today you'll hear and have heard from a panel of essential workers whose jobs are in the crosshair of big tech companies looking to bring robotaxis to Boston. Everyday workers that you've heard from and thousands more that are represented by the unions in this room, make sure that our elderly students and parents get to where they need to be. They deliver our packages. and they keep our shelves stocked. They are the ones that keep Boston moving and have kept Boston moving. Some are in debt because of their investment in their vehicles, thinking that being part of the industry would change their lives for the better, feed their families, be able to make a good living. Drivers are proud to serve our city and today we're all fighting to make sure that they don't lose their jobs, have lower wages, or have to compete with robots. We're not against innovation by any means, but we need innovation and technology that doesn't create a dystopian society that leaves nothing. We need innovation that benefits workers and our communities and preserves the jobs and dignity of workers. Not innovation that benefits billionaires and leaves everyone else behind to figure out what to do and how to take care of their families and communities. That's why we support the ordinance led by Councillor Henry Santana and supported by the majority of the Council. The ordinance is a rational first step. It calls for a public study on how autonomous vehicles could impact Boston's jobs, safety, and economy. It creates an advisory board with drivers, union leaders, small businesses, and city officials to help guide what should happen and what decisions should be made. Right now, the introduction of robo-taxis raises more questions than answers. Are the promised conveniences worth upending thousands of local jobs and lives along with it? What will it cost us as a city, as a society, What happens to the small businesses, the car washes, the restaurants, the gas stations, the repair shops that serve human drivers? What will it cost our city to build infrastructure for them? Are we ready to put the bill for new social services needed for thousands of unemployed? Our goal is clear. Ask the right questions and put appropriate guardrails in place so tech advancement works for everyone and leaves no one behind. This ordinance ensures that the future of transportation in Boston is built with workers, not at our expense. It's a thoughtful, balanced approach that allows us to study, plan, and protect before we leap. On behalf of the app drivers union, I urge the council to support this ordinance and stand with the working people who keep Boston moving. Let's make sure that innovation lifts up our city instead of driving working families out of it. Thank you.

Thank you. Steve?

Thank you very much, Councilor, and thank you for all of the City Councilors that are attending here today. We appreciate it. My name is Steven South, and I'm the Secretary-Treasurer of Teamsters Local 25. I'm honored to be here today with other community groups and many of the different unions in the area. I started my career at UPS 32 years ago as a package car driver. And now I'm lucky enough to negotiate contracts on behalf of over 13,000 men and women in the Boston area. and these 13,000 plus workers have good middle class jobs with good wages and health care and retirement. Unfortunately, our way of life is under attack by Waymo and other big tech companies. Waymo and other companies that are putting driverless cars and trucks on our roadways like to describe themselves as people who are working towards a utopian future and nothing could be further from the truth. This company is steamrolling into cities across the country without concern for the policy makers, residents, and workers. Big corporate tech companies are doing this because they stand to make an incredible amount of money if they eliminate driving jobs for working class people. Men and women who are proud members of Local 25, like the ones that you already heard of. We see the writing on the wall. We know that driverless car and truck companies are salivating at the thought of getting rid of the workers because they'll make an enormous amount of profits. In addition to the current concerns about job loss, there are serious safety issues involving automation. Waymo has said that their cars are safer than humans. Nothing could be further from the truth. If Waymos are so safe, Why has the company had to recall over 1,500 vehicles? Why was it placed under investigation by the federal government? Why have Waymos collided with other vehicles, wet concrete, and even a dog? There are hundreds of documented crashes in cities like Phoenix, Houston, and San Francisco.

Thank you.

Our roads in Massachusetts are over 400 years old, and we have harsher, more extreme weather conditions than any of those other cities that I mentioned. Can you imagine having AVs driving in the middle of a blizzard or an ice storm? How about a heat wave? The problems that we experience will be ten times worse than what we've already seen and what we've seen as horrible. This is because so much of being safe on the road is common sense and split-second decision making. Driverless cars and trucks are nowhere close to having the same capabilities as a trained human operator, and they probably never will be. That is why our elected officials need to send a clear message that Massachusetts is not a playground for Silicon Valley and we will not be steamrolled by big tech. And I just want to end by saying this. I see the executives from Waymo here today, and I know why they're here, and we all know why they're here. and they're here because and I'll ask that anyone that works for rideshare or drives a vehicle as part of their job to please stand up. Please stand up. Everybody that's rideshare, union members, or someone who drives a vehicle, stand up. Now, this is an exercise to show you that if these executives can eliminate them, they make more billions and maybe trillions for them and their shareholders and their executives and big teams. Tech. Thank you.

All right. We'll go to Jack, please. Please respect council rules. Thank you. We have Jack and then Abdiaziz. I apologize if I said your name wrong. Go ahead, Jack.

Thank you, Chair Zapata, the rest of the council. So as you've heard from a lot of the people today, our concerns around the Waymo cars really fall along two tracks. There's taking money, and many more. They come in with all their seed money from the big fancy investors. They offer really cheap rides operating at a loss in order to build up their market share. and then once they've driven all the other competition out, once all these ride share drivers have turned to other methods of making money because it's not sustainable anymore and Waymo's the only option, they're gonna hike the prices up and so on. The safety concerns, you know, they'll probably get up here and talk about all the studies they've done comparing it to other statistics for regular drivers. They'll pretend like it's Comparing it to professional drivers like a lot of the people that you see in this room when really they're comparing it to just the overall traffic data across the country so they have a tiny sample size focused on individual cities, individual neighborhoods of cities where they know they're not going to run into issues and then they're comparing it to random people driving drunk, driving distracted on the highways. who don't hold themselves to the same standard that professional drivers do, who don't have disciplined procedures with their companies or a rating system like the apps have that effectively filter out people who aren't good at driving, who aren't dedicated to their job. and they'll pretend that those drunk drivers and distracted drivers stand in for the professional drivers that they're trying to replace and say that their cars are more safe than professional drivers. It's dishonest. So my union, UFCW, we represent a lot of retail workers, customer service workers, concessions workers at arenas. Our members could talk all day about the promises of new technology that comes in that are supposed to be seamless, not present any issues, and then the reality of the situation that's much different. Thank you for joining us. and so on and so forth. Sometimes we've seen assault on our members and it's bad. It leads to a lot of lost revenue for the state and some precarious situations for our members. I don't want to undermine that. When you compare that to someone being stuck in a driverless car on the highway that all of a sudden malfunctions and they're locked inside and they're helpless while they're just sitting there and they don't know what's going to happen next. It's a scary thought, and I think this technology is still very new. There's no way of knowing all the different ways that it can go wrong, and we've seen that in a lot of instances it has gone wrong. and there's just no accountability and no way for people to get out of it when the worst case does happen. So I think being slow, being deliberate, making sure that we study this issue and understand all of the impacts first is definitely the right way to go. Thank you.

Thank you. Next, we'll go to Abdi Aziz and then Mike.

Good afternoon. My name is Abdazi Samantha. I'm an active white-shirt driver and Boston resident. If you bring thousands of these cars here, you are not just putting drivers out of work, you are hurting the car washes, the coffee shops, the small businesses that depend on us. You are creating traffic chaos and taking food off people's table. Boston is over 400 years old. You need humans behind the wheel. Someone who knows the shortcuts, the worries. The weather. I have been doing this 20 years and it's still stressful. No cameras or sensors can do what I do every day. San Francisco, Phoenix, Austin, let them have Waymo. But we do not want it in town. So I ask the council, with your neighbors, your voters, the workers, you rely on seated here today. Which side are you on? Please support our ordinance. Support Boston workers. Protect our communities. and I'm proud to present the Abt Drivers Union and I join my brothers and sisters in labor. I have been driving in Boston for 20 years Nine years in taxi and 11 years in Uber. When the rideshare apps first came around, most of the taxi guys did not want to hear about it. But I said, if you can't beat them, join them. I signed them up, I bought my own car, and I believed in new industry. I saw the potential, the opportunity. But soon, I also saw how fast these tech companies move and how the people doing the work can get left behind. Many taxi drivers learned the hard way. Back then, we are not organized. We didn't have the union to fight for us. We all saw the devastating consequences. Drivers lost their livelihoods, their medallions, their homes, and never want to see that happen again. That is why I'm helping building the app drivers union and why the labor movement is united in front of you. So we have a chance to protect our jobs and to make sure we are not bulldozed by big tech. Waymo is eyeing Boston as their next market. They want to come here. to refine their technology and expand their profit with no regard for who they leave behind. and I understand it is business, it is capitalism, but not in my city at the expense of our jobs. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. First, I'd like to thank Councilor Murphy and Councilor Santana for bringing this ordinance up and the rest of City Council. for being here and allowing me to speak here today. I'm proud to be standing here with my sisters and brothers, United in Labor and the community groups that are supporting this ordinance. My name is Mike Vatabidi, and I'm the Assistant Directing Business Representative for the Machinist Union District 15, also a proud representative of the App Drivers Union. Silicon Valley executives want to make Boston their next laboratory for robotaxis. We urge the Council to hit the brakes on driverless cars until we fully understand what's at stake for local jobs, communities, and public safety. We've seen what happens when these tech companies move fast and break things. Working people are often left to clean up the mess and deal with the consequences. Innovation should serve the public good, but right now it looks like innovation designed to boost corporate profits. And let's be clear, this fight is not a question about progress. It's about question of power. Out-of-state tech companies don't get to call shots in our city. This is a union town. Boston working people should decide how technology shapes our lives and our work. Thousands of rideshare drivers serve the city day in and day out. These are not labour costs to be eliminated. Rideshare drivers have just won the right to unionize and fight for better wages and conditions. Rolling out driverless cars now threatens to erase that progress before it even begins. Even Uber Uber's own CEOs admit robo-taxis threaten to displace human drivers, calling it a big, big social question. We're calling on the city of Boston to address that question now before it's too late. We're urging the city councils to support the proposed ordinance a common sense approach that takes stock of the economic safety and community risks before opening the doors to autonomous vehicles that could have devastating consequences for workers Their families, the city we all love. We must fight to make sure the future of innovation is decided by the people who keep this city and our state moving, not the corporations looking to make a quick buck. Thank you very much.

Thank you so much, Mike, and thank you all for your testimony. I'll now go to questions from my colleagues. Everybody will get six minutes, and then we'll go to public testimony and then the other panel. So I'll pass it to Councilor Santana for any questions you may have. You have the floor.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to this panel for being here and for representing your members to the best of your ability. I want to thank all our drivers who are here. I'm just thinking of like, You form a union, you are working every single day, and right now you have to advocate on your behalf to keep your jobs. I have a lot of respect, but I know that these are hours that you all can be working right now too, right, to put food on the table. So I just really appreciate you all being here and being together. Rideshare drivers in Massachusetts just recently won the right to unionize and collectively bargain to improve their pay and job protections. This represents a major step forward in creating a more stable and equitable gig Thank you. Thank you. Any of you all can answer.

If I could. Absolutely, there's no question about that. By reducing the workforce, by using driverless cars, eliminating jobs, even if it didn't eliminate all the jobs, which I think eventually it would, and we're talking somewhere up to Potentially 75,000 app drivers and their families here. But even if it didn't eliminate all the jobs, it would absolutely weaken bargaining power for sure.

Absolutely. Many of these members are low income, are immigrant communities, people who are, again, just getting by. I really appreciate that. putting their services at a loss, and then being able to, once they drive out that market, being able to increase that. Can you just elaborate more on that? Because I think that's exactly what's happening here, and I think people need to hear that.

Yeah, I mean, it's just kind of the classic model that Silicon Valley companies like to operate on. They have some big, exciting new idea. They get a lot of... People that give them seed money so they can operate for years on end without having to make any actual revenue like you'd think any business would have to do. and they do that explicitly to try to undermine all of their competitors to capture as much of the market share as they can so that they can get rid of all the other options. and then once they've worked at it enough and captured the market share, then they're basically free to do whatever they want. I mean we did see that with some of these other companies like Uber and Lyft but the good thing there is that at least you know as as they're increasing the prices it means that some of their drivers are being better compensated and especially now that they've unionized it means that they'll be able to and many more. and so on.

I support this panel. I support our unions. I support our workers. So I don't have any more questions. But I'll say, I really urge my council colleagues to really think intentionally here. People who, again, who contribute so much to our city. You heard about being able to support our local businesses, to support our coffee shops, our car washes. Robots are not going to do that. And we need to stand here in the city of Boston to make sure that robots are not replacing jobs. So I really appreciate, you know, again, Madam Chair, you convening us here today. I'm going to continue to fight for our union members, for our workers, for our immigrant families here in the city of Boston who are just trying to make it by and have a job. And it's unfortunate that we have to spend this type of energy and time to make sure that's the case. Again, thank you, Madam Chair. No further questions.

Thank you, Councilor Santana, for your leadership. We'll go to the other lead sponsor and then the other co-sponsor, Councilor Flynn, but first, Councilor Murphy at the floor.

Thank you. Thank you for your testimony and uplifting the concerns. I have a couple of questions. I know you touched on it, but if we could just get on the record some specific answers. What specific impacts have we already seen from automation or reduced human oversight in this industry? And tied to that, If you could give some specifics so we're clear on how would the introduction of autonomous commercial vehicles here in Boston affect our members' livelihoods. I know we talked about work.

Murphy and thank you for all of your support and for putting forward this ordinance. We don't represent specifically rideshare at Local 25, but we do represent a lot of industries that have been seriously affected by automation. And we think about things like trash pickup, where You know you used to have a driver and two we call them shakers on the back putting the barrels empty in the barrels now they have the the arm that and many more. Pick orders or sort packages and load trucks, now it's all done by automation robots and automatic conveyor belts and other things, which have eliminated thousands of jobs. But I just, I think the urgency with automating commercial vehicles like Waymo and many of the other companies In testing phases is we're talking hundreds of thousands of jobs in Massachusetts. You're talking billions of dollars that are being pumped into the economy from the workers that are spending money in their communities where we all work and live. It is critically important that we really take a hard look at all of this for the safety, for the... You heard... A couple of the workers talking about human interaction with our most vulnerable in the communities that this is their only interactions that they have during the week is with their delivery people with their you know we represent about 700 employees at the ride which is operated by the MBTA and it's to transport injured or disabled residents to their doctor's appointments to the grocery stores. I mean, our members help these residents in and out of their house, help them carry groceries. I mean, these are the things that we're looking at. But automation has crushed thousands of jobs in Massachusetts already, just with us and the other unions. and now we're talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs and listen Waymo's one company but it's opening the door and once one comes in, obviously there's hundreds of other companies in Massachusetts that are literally salivating at the thought of automating and getting rid of the human workers to maximize their profits.

Thank you. If I could add to that. So first of all, I couldn't agree more with my brother in labor here. The machinist union has lost a lot of members to automation. We understand that there's progress. Usually to help be more efficient, safety, so on. What we're talking about is literally elimination of an entire workforce. Okay, you put robot cars out in the street. Talking about for app drivers alone, about 75,000 working families are now going to have to find another means to put food on their family's plates, put a roof over their head, etc. But it really is about, we're not resisting progress. This is about literally eliminating a workforce so that and many more. For lack of a better term, hitting the gas pedal and moving faster. So I couldn't agree more that it's just the beginning. It's the tip of the iceberg. But this is literally talking about eliminating an entire workforce. And then let's also talk about the safety and the human aspect of this. Coming as a former mechanic, 18 years at the Transit Authority, and knowing a thing or two about these things, the road salt, the icy conditions and everything like that that will affect these cars will make unsafe conditions and I for one I don't want my family on the road with an experiment so that corporations can make more and more profit and put people out of work.

Just to your question on what we've learned about other cities so far is, and I think this is something that the advisory committee and the ordinance would study is, you know, The initial reports are that wages not only are people being displaced, but the few drivers that are still left, wages are deteriorating. So those are the preliminary studies that we're seeing from other places and we're happy to share those with council and I think part of that that should be part of the study.

Thank you.

Is my time up?

Eight seconds? No, I'll wait. Thank you. I'll wait for the next round. But thank you for always sticking up for the city.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor Flynn.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and proud to join Councillor Santana, Councillor Murphy as an original co-sponsor, and thank you to the panelists for the important work you are doing. I just wanted to follow up on a couple of comments as it relates to other cities that have enacted this type of autonomous vehicles that are now taking jobs away from What impact has that had on safety, on the local economy, on the workers themselves? Do you have any studies at all about that? What other cities or towns across the country are dealing with as it relates to their workforce?

I think my colleague started to touch on that a little bit, if you could, Autumn.

Sure, and thank you for your question. Yes, so the way that we are, it's all preliminary, but the preliminary studies around from other cities are that wages are declining in those cities. That there's not only a loss of jobs, but the few jobs that remain are in competition And so you have less rides, you have less work, and so there are less wages. So those are preliminary studies. They're recently released, and I think we would learn from that. in the study that the City of Boston does as part of this ordinance.

Thank you. I know I've listened to one person testify. He was a Teamster driver, I believe. He was talking about seeing someone probably going through an overdose and he stopped his truck or his car while he was doing his job and was able to help, probably save a life. I guess that story resonated with me, especially because that driver, that person, is part of the community. And they're our neighbors. They're our youth sports coaches. They're part of the PTA program. They're involved in after school programs and they're contributing to the economy. They deserve a little bit of respect and I just want to acknowledge the workers themselves for not only the important work that they are doing in terms of providing a critical service to residents Thank you very much. and I want to acknowledge the workers and how hard they work, how professional they are, and how Serious, they take their job, they're professional, and we want to keep them working, and we don't want to see these jobs eliminated because we know how critical they are to Boston's economy. but also to the fabric of our neighborhoods as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Councillor Flynn. Councillor Louijeune.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and I want to thank my colleagues for introducing this ordinance. I want to thank all of The union members who are here and present advise us as the Boston City Council on how best to move forward in a way that is centering the safety of our city and the importance of the jobs that we do here in the city of Boston. Thank all of our union members for the important work that you do here in the city. I think someone framed it well as there being two issues here, issues of safety in our city and taking money and jobs away from our communities. I also think on the previous panel, Juan talked about how other communities were caught off guard and how important it is for us to be proactive in the introduction of these vehicles to our city. So I'm wondering if anybody could, I always appreciate a comparative lens. If anyone else can talk to more like what are the detriments that we're seeing in other cities that didn't take a proactive approach? And then the second question, I believe it was highlighted either by this panel or a prior panel. When Waymo car was pulled over, they didn't know who to ticket. Is there any more insight as to actually what happened or what are the protocols or what is the thinking happening there? Would love further insight on either of those questions.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilor. I believe a lot of the information from these tech companies is private, so a lot of times it's hard for us to quantify Some of the things that you're asking for but I do want to point out a couple things and I know that This city council in Boston fights hard for workers and for justice. And just to give you a couple statistics, right now in the United States, the bottom 50% of the country, economically, have 2.8% of the wealth, the bottom 50%. The top 10% Wealth-wise have 66% of the wealth, about two-thirds. That is so disproportionate. And if you look at companies like Waymo and other big tech companies to eliminate hundreds of thousands of jobs in Massachusetts or millions nationwide, What's it going to do to that already disproportionate wealth? It's going to make the divide further. And obviously, all of the workers in this room and in this state are in the bottom 50%. It's going to make the divide even further. The rich get richer. The poor get poorer. Eliminate the middle class, all in the name of corporate profits. So I just wanted to point that out. Thank you.

I don't know if, again, my partner in labor here, I don't know that we have the information on tickets and things like that, but I think it's, Thank you. Thank you. That's real testimony. They've experienced helping people in medical emergencies, walking people to the door, helping people get into vehicles that maybe They're difficult getting in and so on. And then add in the factors of just The conditions around here, there's already hundreds of examples of these vehicles getting into accidents across the country. Do a quick Google search and find that stuff out. But add in the extra difficult The conditions around Boston with the smaller roads, difficult navigating, but then add snow, ice, road salt, caked on vehicles. How many times you have to wash your vehicle every winter to get some of their road sale off and that affects The functions of these vehicles. I mean, heck, they were going to do a demonstration of the statehouse one day and they couldn't do it because it was too hot. It was too, it was too, the conditions were too hot to drive the vehicles as what they said to the news. So I think that there's a lot of concerns about the safety, but then also the impact on the economy and the workers and their families that rely on these jobs.

Thank you for that. Yeah, so many of our streets, some of our streets were made for horse and buggy, not to talk about what it would look like for someone, a robot trying to navigate through those streets. Also private ways, something that we talk about a lot here, present obstacles. And I just wanted to mention the cleavages, the wealth cleavages. I just wanted to highlight how important that is when we're talking about protecting and making sure we're advocating for our workers, so many of whom are seeing are facing really difficult choices this week, along with SNAP benefits being cut. We know so many of our working residents are people who are also not making enough to even be able to feed their families without the assistance from SNAP. I think it's really important that we be proactive here to make sure number one that we are doing it in the safety of our cities but for the safety of our residents but also someone on the panel also made a comment about How these corporations compete, especially when they're able to get money from venture capital, label to all these investments. They enter the market at a very, very low rate, be able to weed out competitors. And that causes really big problems when it comes to the creation of monopolies, when it comes to unfair advantages or really giving workers, making workers feel like they have no other choice. So I do think it's really important that we get in here on ground zero to try to be as proactive as possible. I have to leave for a funeral, but I look forward. If there's anyone who has information about ticketing or any of that information, Look forward to reviewing the record to see how we can be proactive in all senses when it comes to safety and when it comes to our workers. Thank you, and thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Councilor Louijeune. Councilor Pepén.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, everyone. Councilor Pepén here. Just very thankful for everyone for being here. I think everyone has said it. When we see the Chamber this packed, that means that they're fighting for something that we truly believe in. You know, being able to be outside with you and listen to the voices of the people that may be impacted by this really does make a difference. So for me, Being able to look at how this will impact the livelihoods of our workers here in the city of Boston, that's the first thing that I always think about, is how is a policy that we vote on going to impact our workers and the people? And unfortunately, I mean, I know where I stand on this, but I will love, I just, I'm getting a sense also that a lot of my colleagues too, we want to make sure we protect our workforce here. y para en español solamente quiere decir gracias a todos ustedes por sacrificar su tiempo por estar aquí entiendo que That's probably costing you money because you could be working right now, but I really appreciate you being here today, advocating for what you believe. In this time right now, especially what we're going through, federal government, et cetera, these are moments where we should be stepping up for our working class families, not taking steps to take away opportunities for them. And I know that. I read in the news about four days ago that Senator Paul Feeney from the Attleboro area, Massachusetts State Senator, he's looking also how do we do the self-checkout regulations at grocery stores that stop in shops or in other grocery stores. Realizing that, I think one of you said it, once we open up the doors for one thing to come into Massachusetts, that's going to open up the floodgates for everything. Right now, your jobs are at risk, but who knows who else's job is at risk. So we have to look at things carefully. To be honest with you, I don't have a question for you. I don't. I think my colleagues asked a lot of the questions that I had. I've done my homework here. I also just live it. I have family members that will probably lose a job if this were to be passed. I've heard success stories of a neighbor of mine that was in a wheelchair, and she lives by herself, and she used... I forget what app driver was, whatever. But it was a gentleman that helped her get out of the car and be able to get her back on her chair. So these are real-life experiences. There's people behind the wheels helping people do their day-to-day lives. So I'm just thankful for everyone's advocacy here. Thank you so much for just taking time. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, Councilor Pepén, Councilor Fitzgerald, and then Breadon.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Technology really is a double-edged sword. There are ways it can be used so well, and we will need it to advance many different things in this world. However, when placed in the wrong atmosphere, it can really do more damage. I think of social media as my first thing as a parent with kids. But when we become more dependent on technology, we are inclined to place more value on technology. And in doing so, inherently, we are placing less value on people. And that is a philosophy I just can't get myself over the hump on, right? And I think the stories that you all told today Even the anecdotal ones about people and what we can do more than technology could ever do. People need people. Like my friend, Councilor Pepén here, I don't really have a question. I am open to understanding more from the other side, of course. Look forward to the next panel and hearing them out. This is a new frontier and we always have to weigh both sides carefully. But that philosophical hurdle for me will be difficult to get over. And so I applaud you all for showing up in force and making your voices heard. But like many of you, I'll cede my time back so you all can get back to work. I appreciate it. Thank you, Chair. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor Fitzgerald, Councillor Breadon, and then Mejia. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you all for being here this evening, this afternoon. It's so good to see so many folks here. Again, I don't have many questions, but listening to all of your testimony this afternoon, a couple of things that come to mind really is how... How secure is the technology in terms of, because we hear of cyber attacks impacting every aspect of our lives, impacting hospitals, impacting airports, impacting You name it. I don't know, you folks have probably been studying this and I appreciate that there's a certain There is strength in having human-operated vehicles that can respond to changing situations in a moment and make an on-the-spot in that time and space decision to keep yourself and your Passengers Safe. I heard the point about the weather conditions. The other thing that really grabs me this afternoon listening to you all is that you provide a human service. I'm a physical therapist by background and I've talked to many older residents in the neighborhood who say it's really increasingly difficult to get around and they've given up their cars. And if they have mobility issues, they really do rely on the goodness and the kindness of their Uber drivers and their Lyft drivers or their taxi drivers to give them that extra little hand to get in and out of the car, to get them to the front door. to see that they're safe going into their homes. And I think technology will definitely not replace you drivers. So I will cede my time, but also I want to thank you for your advocacy because I think you're flagging up a very, very serious issue. The loss of economic Vitality in your communities, because all the money that you make you spend in your neighbourhoods. And then also that loss of human connection with the people that you serve on a day-to-day basis. and then also the other issue is just really thinking about safety and the funky roadways and weather conditions that we have in, I was going to say Alston Brighton, but all across the city of Boston. It's not your regular grid system that, you know, Thank you for your advocacy. I look forward to continuing to hear more about your work in this space and how you Really trying to preserve a way of life and a quality of life for our neighborhoods and for our communities. So thank you all for your time this afternoon.

Thank you, Chair. And I'm going to save a lot of my time for the executives that I'd like to I have more questions for because everybody here already knows where I stand. I'm still in shock that I have to even have this conversation that here we are in this day and age trying to defend Thank you for joining us. fight against the big cats. But then they're going to keep climbing up that ladder. And so why this is so important in this moment right now is what Boston does and how we show up will send a ripple effect across the country. because everybody looks to Boston as a leader. And while they've managed to get this done in other little spaces and places, try it in Boston. That's what they're looking for. And that's why you showing up the way that you are here in this space Holding us accountable and making sure we do right by the people that we serve is why I'm really excited to be here with you all today. I want to thank you, Councilor Pepén, because at the end of the day, I don't think we're still here fighting. for our work and our rights. That's embarrassing because first they start attacking us who are the poorest, but after that they continue to bite. And it's very important that we have here Dejándole demostrar que la ciudad de Boston no va a dejar que nadie entre aquí y le quite el ingreso de la gente de nosotros. Wait, wait, wait, no clapping, no clapping, I want no problems. Please, no clapping. Can I get fired up? I'm sorry. I'm not going to apologize, but I just do. I'm so... I cannot believe that I'm having this conversation right now, but here we are. We're gonna have it. And it is like trickle-down harm that we're looking at because you all talked about the fact that It's not just the drivers, it's the small businesses that are going to be impacted. This is going to be the next global pandemic. When we look at COVID and the impact that it has on the workforce and our economy, this could be the next thing that impacts our economy. And I think it's really important for us to get this right. So there was something that was said earlier. It was about a... I think it was you. You talked about... An incident that you were able to observe, I'm not sure who it was, but somebody here on the panel talked about something that only a driver that was not a robot could actually see and respond to. So this morning on my way to work, I shared with Councilor Flynn that I was driving here into work and in front of me was a couple, or at least it looked like it was a couple, at least from my vantage point, and they were beating each other up, literally hitting one another. and they pulled over to the side of the road and me being the busybody that I am, I pulled over to the side of the road too just to make sure they were okay. So I pulled up to them And I noticed that the person looked younger, and I asked them to, were they okay? And I did an inquiry, right? Who am I? But I was worried that this person was being abused. The person said, oh, it's my wife. It did not look like they were their wife. So anyways, all of this to say is that because I was the driver behind that vehicle, I was able to do something. I was able to stop and check in and make sure that that other car was okay. I don't think That would be the case if Waymo, well actually no, a robot, let me just call it what it is again, a robot was driving. The robot would be focused on their lane and getting to where they need to be and they would not, Be worried about what's happening in and around their area. And that, when we're talking about safety, yes, I understand safety is a concern, but the number one concern for me is humanity. Humanity. And I think that innovation is great, but it should never come at the cost of our humanity or our livelihood. And our ability to see and do something, not just say something. And I think that a robot would not get out of their car. They wouldn't even, they can't even walk. I mean, they're like stuck in some little thing. I don't know, I've seen them. They look weird and they look kind of scary too, but... Anyways, they would not do anything because you know what, they're not invested in human Behavior. They're not invested in humans. So it's us against machines. And I don't know if y'all saw that movie Total Recall, or that was scary, or some of y'all are older, because I see y'all laughing. or if you even saw the movie, I know, that's right, y'all, Total Recall, or that movie with, what's his name, Will Smith and the Little White Robots, I don't know what that was, what? There's so many examples that I never thought that I would be inside the chamber talking about what could potentially be happening because it is happening. and if we don't get ahead of it, it will happen. And while I do appreciate the ordinance that we can provide some guardrail, I think the real conversation should be how do we get to a no, period. That would be what I would like for us to talk about because we already missed the boat with the supermarkets. And so my time is up and that's all I gotta say. Thank you.

Thank you, Councilor Mejia. Please respect council rules. Help me out as chair, please. I don't want to be the bad guy. No more applause. Thank you. Appreciate the enthusiasm. All right, we'll go to Councilor Weber, and then we'll go to the first sheet of public testimony that was handed to me.

Thank you. Okay, thank you, Chair. Thank you to the panel. Before I was elected a city councilor, I spent 18 years representing workers with one sort of guiding principle, people before profit, and I'm not about to change up that now. So I just, I don't know, just a couple things. For this, you know, for Waymo, I'm still not sure, you know, what the problem is that we're trying to solve, and I think you kind of got to it, you know, the problem is the Human Drivers and as being a source of labor that you have to pay. and deal with and negotiate contracts with. But just in terms of safety, do you have data on the safety of your drivers per mile, how that compares to, Nonprofessional Drivers, or anything because I just, you know, in terms of like how to push back against this notion that somehow, you know, our city isn't, you know, our streets aren't safe because people are driving these cars. I don't know. Anything? I'm looking at you, Autumn.

We can, I think we'd be happy to provide data as part of the study here, but I think the main thing is that You know, the swath of, huge swath of drivers as you've seen, and I think everybody's kind of, you know, hearing from each other, is that, you know, drivers are incredibly hardworking, Thank you. Thank you. Everyone else. And their likelihood depends on it. If there's one wrong move, people risk getting deactivated. It's a huge, huge problem in the industry. If a passenger thinks that you don't smile at them, they can complain to the company and people get deactivated just for something like that. And so drivers are incredibly, incredibly careful of being safe, of being conscientious to a degree that they just have to because of There is no fair deactivation procedure right now. There is no fair. It's something that drivers are fighting for. I think it's day-to-day. Drivers do everything they possibly can to keep Customers themselves and the community safe.

How is this supposed to work when somebody is in a wheelchair or having trouble seeing? Do you have any idea, you know, how the driverless car is supposed to handle that?

Do you want to ask a question? Do you want to? So I'll start and I'll pass it to my, to Abdi Aziz, but I, we... You'll hear from all the drivers about all of the ways that they have served our vulnerable population where they have helped people with wheelchairs, they've helped people with Service dogs help the elderly to tie their shoes, to get them back into the house, to carry groceries. I don't think a robot is able to do that.

So, I'm going to see if... Well, yeah, I understand how humans do. I just, I can't even imagine how it's supposed to work. You know, if you want to say anything. about that, that's fine.

I believe that, obviously, I'm sure these companies have their own studies, but we take it for what it's worth. They're studying themselves. I believe that a lot of the information is still private in other cities. and not released by the companies to public authorities. But I do want to point out that the automation that we do see already within warehouses in Massachusetts I mean, it's great, but the problem is that the systems constantly go down. Just last week at one of my companies that has these automated trains that carry things throughout the building, crushed one of the supervisor's legs, pinned her against the wall, and she had to go to the emergency room, be rushed there, and had 47 stitches in her leg. That was last week. I mean, that's one thing. And I just want to point out one thing that may or may not be obvious. Computers break down all the time. Machines break down all the time. And there is a reason why we don't have automated passenger airplanes. Right? Every airplane has multiple pilots, and they might put it on autopilot for an hour while they're coasting, but why don't we have Passenger airplanes without drivers, without pilots. And the reason's obvious, because when the system fails, it's not a car where it parks, the plane's 30,000 feet in the air.

Just two more quick questions. One is, I think Councillor Santana alluded to this, drivers just earned the right to unionize. Has anyone considered filing an unfair labor practice? complaint based on, you know, using Thank you very much. to that. Not that the National Labor Relations Board is even functioning, but if it did, to me it seems like curious timing. and a threat to our workers' ability to bargain for fair wages.

Thanks. So at the moment, and Lyft. I don't know whether they're planning on teaming up with Waymoo and their platform or anything.

I thought that they did. Yeah.

Exactly. I don't know all the details there but obviously that is A big concern of ours is that it was a way to undercut the workers and we are looking at that. In regards to National Labor Relations Act, this is a state law. So it only exists here in Massachusetts right now to allow the Uber and Lyft drivers to unionize. So the use of the National Labor Relations Board, even though everything's shut down, We wouldn't be going that way. We'd go through the State Labor Board. But we're looking at that stuff right now, but the connection is still, we're trying to figure that out.

Okay, thank you. That's why I tell people I was not a labor lawyer. I was a wage and hour attorney. I didn't represent workers who were able to unionize. So thank you for the lesson. Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you.

I want to thank my colleagues for their thoughtful and informed questions. Thank you all so much for your testimony and your contributions. We're going to transition because we do have a long list to public testimony. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay, just a reminder for folks. So just to provide clearance, and any guidance I think where appropriate for those who are visually impaired to come up to the mic. So if we can clear any fire lanes or Anything like that, I would appreciate it. This is the first sheet that was handed to me for public testimony. I got another sheet handed as well. So I'll go in the order in which this was received. So we have Brianna. January from the Chamber of Progress. We also have Carl Richardson from the Guide Dog Users of MA, Nora Nagel from the Bay State Council of the Blind, and then Rashad Sadevid, I apologize if I said your name wrong, from Rosendale. We'll start with that. We'll start there and then go forward with two or three more individuals. Thank you so much, Brianna. You have the floor. Please approach the mic, say your name and your affiliation.

You have two minutes. Thank you Madam Chair, esteemed committee, Brianna January with Chamber of Progress. We are a tech industry association advocating for the progressive future of tech and inclusive access to that future. Unlike traditional trade associations, our partners do not have a voter veto in our positions. Instead, we operate independently as a center-left organization. I come today in strong opposition to Docket 1432, which would deny Boston residents and visitors the choice to utilize AVs and their lifesaving innovation. Docket 1432 would deny the freedom to take what has been proven time and time again to be the safest vehicle-based mode of transportation. And for the site-impaired community, DACA 1432 would deny the opportunity for true independence. And committee, I hope that you give the folks here today the full audience that they deserve, just like you've given labor, because so far this body has has unfortunately deprioritized the disabled community. I've testified before this body before about the fear-mongering and disingenuous claims that you're hearing today. But to state that there are few remaining drivers in cities with AVs is objectively false. I say that as a trade association that represents Uber and Lyft. To claim that AVs have taken over, for example, LA or Phoenix is false. AVs are a choice. They add to the transportation ecosystem and the choices that people have. But I'm here today instead to more so talk about safety. The facts are clear. We don't have to live like this. In fact, according to data from your own Massachusetts Department of Transportation, over 620,000 motor vehicle crashes were recorded in the last five years, many of them being fatal and 90,000 resulted in other injuries. and actually there have been 95,000 crashes just this year alone. We don't have to live like this. AVs offer an alternative. AVs don't drink, they don't text and drive, they don't doze off or lose their temper. They follow traffic rules. They see in every direction simultaneously and they brake without hesitation. Counselors, you've talked about the value of life. Well, committee, I ask you, when else have you had an opportunity to literally save lives, have had clear, continuously tried and tested data that prove so, and yet choose not to do so? Imagine if policymakers chose not to support seat belts after data showed that they save lives, or to require proper car seats and safety measures for babies and children. By supporting Docket 1432, history would remember this committee for actively choosing to deny Bostonians and visitors the choice, which is all that AVs are, is a choice to add to the transportation ecosystem. I know that I'm over time. I appreciate any questions and we look forward to working with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Next up, Carl and then Nora.

Hi, my name is Carl Richardson. I am the Massachusetts State House ADA coordinator for the Massachusetts legislature and an advisory board member for the Persons, Mayor Ruth Persons for Commissions with Disabilities and have served on that board since 2009 under Mayor Menino. But today I am testifying as a resident of Boston. The Presidents of the Guide Dog Users Group of Massachusetts, and a member of the Bay State Council of the Blind. I am in opposition to this ordinance not because it deserves to look at the union study, which I think it should, but because it is too narrowly defined. Let's talk about numbers. The union folks have said consistently it could impact up to 45,000 people. I'm glad they said that because I have numbers too. Nearly one in five... According to the CDC, nearly one in five people have a disability. That's 1.4 residents of Massachusetts, 400,000 residents of the greater Boston area, and 135,000 residents of Boston. and that doesn't include, that's only people with disabilities, that doesn't include women who may be afraid to take Over or Left because they don't want to get into a vehicle with a strange man. It may be people of color who routinely get denied because of their skin color. Elderly who just want to take autonomous vehicles because they want to feel more independent and feel like they're doing it on their own. The numbers far exceed the 45,000. So autonomous vehicles can impact Just as many, if not far more people it can adversely affect. And people with disabilities want the same thing that union representatives want. We want access to employment. Education, Healthcare, and much more. And one of the leading barriers is transportation. Now, let's talk about how to impact small businesses. I guarantee you, if you use me as an example, The use of my discretionary income would expand exponentially by several thousand dollars if it were easier for me to get to entertainment places Retail establishment, healthcare establishment, and I can't be the only one. So I don't think it would have a negative impact on small businesses because if we have greater access, and as the woman before me said, it would just be a tool. So in closing, if you do do a study, look at not only how it would negatively impact people, but look how it would positively impact people. Because to me, autonomous vehicles is not a dystopian future. It is my mobility, my freedom, my independence, and access to more. And I would like to personally challenge any of the legislators, any of the city councilors listening today, I live in Boston. I am willing to meet with you. I challenge you to blind yourself for just one hour, work with me, and try to get to work. Try to do an errand and then tell me because at the last hearing two city councilors said they could not support autonomous vehicles because it would be of minimal benefit to the city of Boston. After they blindfold themselves, tell me of access to as many forms, not just one, including the rides, public transportation, autonomous vehicles, it would be If that is a minimal benefit. If the independence, mobility, freedom, access to employment, education, healthcare is a minimal benefit. It is not. Thank you for your time and attention.

Thank you, Carl. Next up, please, no applause. Next up, we have Nora and then Rashad.

Please state your name and affiliation. My name is Nora Nagel. I'm a resident of the city of Boston, and I'm a director with the Bay State Council of the Blind. Sorry, I'm just getting my dogs settled here. Autonomous vehicle regulation, whatever form it takes, needs to consider the needs of all of the citizens of Boston and come from an open-minded advisory board representative of the entire city. It appears by the wording of this ordinance that it has not occurred to any of the sponsors that some citizens of Boston could actually benefit from safely operated autonomous vehicles. I'm here to tell you that I'm one of them. I've lived and worked in the city of Boston for over 35 years. In one of my jobs, I was the vice president of my bargaining unit for over eight years, an affiliate of UAW Local 2320. I mention this because I want to be clear. I'm pro-union, and I grew up in a pro-union family. But I am not pro-union to the exclusion of reasoned analysis. As a legally blind guide dog user in Boston, I have fewer transportation options than I did 10 years ago. Rideshares are largely unavailable to me. I've been refused politely. I've been refused rudely. Some just drive away. Some drivers give me excuses. I'm refused more often than not. The reason is always the same. I have a guide dog. Where's the humanity in leaving a blind person standing in the dark in the rain with no way to get home? I'm sure that I do not need to remind you all that using a guide dog is my civil right. I and many other people with disabilities here and across the country continue to experience systematic discrimination by Uber and Uber drivers. Uber is currently being sued by the Department of Justice in California over this very issue. If I could take a safe, autonomous car, it would mean that I wouldn't have to worry about being refused two, three, and four times in a row, being stuck in an unfamiliar place not knowing how I'll get home. Autonomous vehicles have the potential to give me and other people with disabilities increased independence, mobility, and flexibility. and I have a right to expect that the City of Boston consider every aspect of this issue before issuing regulations. Based on this hearing and makeup of the advisory board proposed by the ordinance, it seems clear that the sponsors are giving highly disproportionate weight to the opinions of organized labor and have already made up their minds. Well, approximately 12% of Massachusetts residents are in unions. Coincidentally, about 12% of Massachusetts residents are people with disabilities who face serious transportation challenges. Don't forget about us. We vote, too, and our needs are continually ignored. Any advisory board needs to represent citizens from diverse neighborhoods of Boston, seniors, families, people with disabilities. It needs representation from workers on second and third shifts, both union and non-union, It needs representation from residents with limited transportation access. It needs to be representative of the entire city, not just certain sectors.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay, we have Rashad and then Brandon. And then after that, we'll do two more, Aaron Buckley and Paris Flynn. And then we'll go back to the panel.

There's a microphone here.

Oh, that's it?

At the microphone.

Good afternoon. I've done electrical engineering for 25 years, become legally blind about 12 years ago. And I find Uber, I'm like, oh my God, this is great. I can go places, I can work, I can do this and that. But I start running into issues. dropped in the wrong place, people waiting. Uber will come in and just... Wait somewhere far from us. You call the person. They don't want to answer the phone. Either they're busy or they don't talk English. They, you know, you get in the car, you ask the person, I'm a blind, can you please make sure you get me in front of the door? He look at you like you have two heads, no English. Okay. It's not you. I'm not talking about every Uber driver. I'm talking it's a problem with your company. They don't screen people correctly. Now, you're talking about taking your jobs away. It's your company making deal with other company, with Waymo, with GM. With Tesla, they're trying to get rid of you as soon as they can. It's not Waymo. It's your company. Go after your company. We're looking for independent. I can't wait to get my own car again. or my robot to walk with me. But you don't seem to understand people. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Brandon, Cadet Hernandez, and then Aaron Buckley. Is Brandon here? Okay. I don't see him coming down. And then Aaron Buckley and Paris Flynn.

Hello. My name is Erin Buckley. I'm a Certified Orientation and Mobility Specialist working with people of all ages who are blind or visually impaired and the Director of Orientation and Mobility at the Carroll Centre for the Blind. We are the largest state contract with the Massachusetts Commission for the Blind, providing direct services to consumers who are visually impaired. The work of orientation and mobility specialists is to increase the potential for independence and safe negotiation for people with vision impairment. As you can imagine, one of the biggest losses to those without full sight is the ability to drive. Those of us with sight can choose to drive, take public transit, bike, walk, rent a scooter. All of these options are difficult at best or even impossible. but also create additional dangers to blind pedestrians. Bikes, e-bikes, and scooters are driven on sidewalks and discarded haphazardly, making even simple sidewalk travel harder than ever. Uber and Lyft opened up more options to people with vision impairments. Unfortunately, they too can be problematic for the visually impaired. People with guide dogs are regularly and illegally turned away by drivers who don't want a dog in their car. The data tells us that blind people are more vulnerable to become victims of crime, particularly females. Those of us with college-age loved ones have legitimate concerns about the potential of them getting into a car that's not their intended ride. Waymo riders enjoy added peace of mind knowing with certainty that they are entering the right car even if they can't see the license plate. They know there is no chance that the driver could be a danger to them or that they could be left at the wrong location. People who are blind need more options for safe travel. They have fewer options than their sighted counterparts, as it is. Please don't stand in the way of improving access for people with disabilities. Waymo has been successfully launched in other major cities throughout the US. I urge you to allow them into Boston, and I strongly oppose Ordinance 1432. To speak to technology, The use of technology has been very impactful for those with visual impairment. It has allowed those who are blind and visually impaired to read text, write. This is not something that needs to be Left Out. Technology is not always a bad thing. And in this case, it's adding extra permissions for people who are blind and visually impaired.

I thank you. Thank you so much. Next up we have Paris Flynn from Best Buddies MA.

Hello. To go down a little bit. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. As said, my name is Paris Flynn. I'm a lifelong resident of Massachusetts and Rhode Island. I'm also a worker in the city of Boston, and I'm a program manager for Best Buddies Massachusetts in Rhode Island, specifically here in Boston. So I work alongside the disabled community of Boston, and I also serve the disabled community of Boston. And in this role, I've seen First hand, the innumerable challenges that our participants and my colleagues face when it comes to transportation and navigating transportation around the city of Boston. I'm here to advocate for and speak on behalf of both my friends, my participants, as well as my colleagues with not only physical disabilities but also intellectual and developmental disabilities. I would like to use my voice to further the sentiments of the innumerable participants that I work with who face obstacles every single day in obtaining employment due to their inability or their election not to drive. Reliable transportation is a consistent, continued challenge and oftentimes full-out barrier for my participants to gain access to and retain employment. And this is a right that all members of Boston have a right to and should be able to access employment. The associated expenses and unreliability of currently available services have served as an obstacle to not only obtaining employment, and earning an income and subsequently independence as well as achieving self-determination. but also a hindrance to accessing opportunities for socialization and interaction and integration within our communities. particularly those who are geographically isolated in more rural communities have a very very hard time accessing our community and feeling connected to our community. As we know, the disabled community, particularly those with intellectual, developmental, and physical disabilities already face disproportionate challenges and isolation both economically, socially, and physically. And it is the responsibility of those in a position of power to make sure that the voices of the disabled community are heard, and that their wishes are heard and respected and at least factored into the decisions that we make when navigating the future of our city. Thank you.

Thank you so much. I'm actually going to take a couple more because the list is so long. I just want to be sure to maximize people's time because you have taken time to be here and to provide testimony. Next up, we'll go to Dwayne Mitchell at ADU. and then Elias Ventura, ADU, if you're still here. I'm not seeing them make their way to the podium. I believe this says Ruben Castillo.

You can use that mic right there. Hi, everybody. My name's Dwayne Mitchell. I live in Roslindale. I'm 73 years old, and I need the income from driving Uber and Lyft to just remain in the city of Boston. I've been driving for about 10 years. I've probably got like 15,000 rides. I had a career as a software developer, but I'm semi-retired. And I also drove a taxi cab for a while. I'm very sorry to hear about these issues with people with disabilities, That can't get good service from a driver. That's not a driver issue. That's an Uber issue. They should be reported. And as a cab driver, I'll tell you what, the Boston Police Department wouldn't tolerate that if they got reported. You know, it's just too bad. I came here today a little bit fearful of my future and with the advent of technology that might put me out of work. I'm really impressed with the job you folks have done putting this bill together. In your opening remarks you had a good bullet list of points of inquiry and if you follow those points of inquiry I think you'll do a very good job and arrive at a conclusion that some of the other speakers up here have remarked on, and that is the social consequences of putting tens of thousands of people out of a job don't... Rise to the benefit of having this automation. At some point, we've got to stop this automation. We've got to take care of our people. And I think I support your initiative, and I hope it passes. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Is Dwayne here? Dwayne Mitchell from ADU? That was me. Oh, that was you. OK. And Elias. Elias Ventura. We'll go to Ruben Castillo, if you're here. Okay, next up we have Richard Berman from Best Buddies.

Hi, my name is Richard Berman, and I'm an ambassador for Best Buddies. I kind of love Waymo because this place is where you're at. Wait, I think we can go where the ride can't go. Like, have you ever heard of the Best Buy High End Sport Challenge? The Dings on the Cape. Every year, I have to remind my staff to drive me down and some of our other ambassadors down to the Cape because the ride will not go down to the Cape. or at Walker to Worcester or Rockford. And it's a lot cheaper for people with disabilities. and it would be very, very encouraging. It would be convenient because of the and Consumidor. And I've had problems with Uber and Lyft and the ride back to the building. The problems I had with them They all, one time, I had like four, right? One couldn't find me. The second car drove right past me. I had two people waving them down. And then I... So then I started... The skin of the ride. And sometimes the ride is late. Sometimes they're on time. Sometimes they're not dependable. Yeah. So I think it would be a lot better. And I could go places. When the ride can't go, like down to the Cape. Or to Worcester. Or... Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you so much for your testimony. Next up we have Alberto Montoya from Best Buddies.

Hi. Hi, my name is Alberto. I am an ambassador for Best Buddies and a lifelong resident of Boston.

Alberto, can you speak more into the mic, please, so we can hear you? Thank you.

Hi, my name is Alberto. I am an ambassador for Best Buddies and a lifelong resident of Boston. I feel strongly that there must be more accessible, affordable, and reliable transportation for People like me with disabilities. Did you know that people with disabilities face a large amount of stigma? Throughout my life, I've encountered stigma in schools, in work, and And, well, in the city of Boston, it can get pretty hectic. But... I guess I got off topic, but the point is that stigma can be anywhere. But everyone in this room can make a difference, not just in transportation. That is all my time. Thank you.

Thank you so much Alberto for your testimony. Thank you, thank you. Next we'll go to Stephen and then we'll go to the next panel. Is there Stephen? Girardi from the National Federation of the Blind. Great, thank you.

Hello, my name is Steven Urarty from the National Federation of the Blind in Massachusetts. Unlike some of my other colleagues that have spoken that are disabled and blind, we Just think, there should be some more other options of transportation, like Waymo could be just another component that is just used, like, there might be different surface ends if we want to take a Waymo versus take an Uber or or even just take the right. I think it would be another game changer to at least have one more option that is not restricted to some parts of Boston. The other gentlemen have said you can't get to Worcester, you can't get to Lowell, you can't get to Springfield because we have many I came from New Hampshire in what I used to call transportation desert where I only had to rely on my family to help me get back and forth to be able to go to work, go to shopping. The unemployment for blindness in particular is usually around either 65% to 80%, depending on which study we look at. So this could kind of open up the opportunities of being able to get more employment. I just think it would be another option to have, and I thank you for your time.

Thank you so much. OK. Next up, we'll go to our last panel, which is the autonomous vehicle panel. So we have Matthew Walsh, who is policy and government affairs of Waymo, and then We also have Mary Kate, Dee, I apologize again, Dee Pamphilis, Program Director of MADD, and then Greg Donnelly, President and CEO of the Carroll Center for the Blind. And then we'll go back to public testimony. So if you have signed up for public testimony, you will be heard. We just want to make sure that we're moving this along. So I appreciate everybody's patience and understanding. Welcome to the chambers. Matthew, you are first on my list, so we'll go to you first. Please introduce yourself. You have the floor.

Good afternoon. My name is Matthew Walsh. I'm our regional head of state and local public policy at Waymo. Good afternoon, Chair Coletta Zapata and other distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the ordinance relating to the safety and efficacy of autonomous vehicle operations in Boston. Waymo is an autonomous driving technology company with a mission to be the world's most trusted driver. We operate a fully autonomous ride hailing service in Phoenix, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Austin, and Atlanta. Today Waymo provides hundreds of thousands of fully autonomous paid passenger trips every single week in those markets. We are also expanding our service to new cities and intend to launch our service in Miami, Dallas, Denver, DC, Seattle, Nashville, London, and Tokyo. More than half the country from California to Colorado to Pennsylvania has enacted state legislation that authorizes the deployment of fully autonomous vehicles and cities across the nation are already seeing the benefits that Waymo can bring. Waymo vehicles are involved in five times fewer injury-causing collisions compared to humans. In the Bay Area, Waymo's presence generated an additional $40 million in economic activity from tourism alone last year. Americans of all backgrounds tell us that our service is changing their lives. People like Colin, a sports marketer in Phoenix, can travel alone in a car despite his epilepsy limiting him from driving, something that many of us take for granted. People like Jessica in San Francisco are able to get around and even more independently without fear of discrimination or harassment because she is blind. and women like Caitlin in Los Angeles feel more at ease not having a stranger in the car at night who knows where they live. We want to make sure your constituents can have these benefits too. We have significant concerns with the legislation proposed by the Council and its impacts on the future of autonomous vehicles in Boston. The proposed ordinance is an unprecedented ban on a technology that is bringing additional safety, economic activity, Thank you for joining us today. including members of this body use every single day without issue. Thousands of Bostonians who work late nights or early mornings in the healthcare, hospitality, and other industries will continue to lack reliable transportation if they don't own their own car. We understand the concerns about the technology's impact on the workforce, but there is little evidence to support the worst case scenarios presented by supporters today of this ordinance. In 2024, the number of people in San Francisco working for taxi and limousine service firms grew by 7%. Total pay in the industry rose by 14%, and taxi trips in the Bay Area remained the same. I implore the members of this committee to consider the wide-ranging benefits that AVs can bring to Boston before moving forward with this ordinance. After more than 100 million miles of driverless operations on public roads, the data is clear that Waymo is making roads safer. Boston has an incredible innovation ecosystem. The city is home to amazing biotech and technological research institutions, making it an incredible forward-thinking city. It would be unfortunate to sully this city's reputation by being the only major city on earth to ban this life-saving technology. Thank you for the opportunity to testify and I'll take any questions.

Thank you. Mary Kate, would you like to go next?

Hi there. I'm Mary Kate DePamphilis, and I'm the director for MAD Massachusetts, or Mothers Against Drunk Driving. and thank you for having me here today. The mission of MADD is to make roadways safe for everyone and the key part of that mission is to end impaired driving for all. That is why we are so excited about Waymo's potential presence here in Boston. Autonomous vehicles represent another important tool in the effort to eliminate impaired driving. MADD has been a longtime partner of Waymo, and we are proud to share a deep commitment to protecting drivers, passengers, pedestrians, and our communities. In the United States, one person is killed in an impaired driving crash every 37 minutes. Every year in Massachusetts, an average of 120 people lose their lives in impaired driving crashes, while thousands more are injured. Roughly one in three traffic fatalities involve alcohol-impaired driving, and Boston's rates are higher than the national average. These tragedies are 100% preventable and should never have happened. Ensuring roadway safety for all in Massachusetts is one of the most critical issues we face today. When deployed responsibly and in collaboration with local stakeholders, autonomous vehicles hold tremendous promise in preventing deaths and injuries caused by behavioral factors such as impaired driving. We welcome Waymo into new communities as another valuable, sober option to keep impaired drivers off the road. Embracing autonomous vehicles could mean fewer families getting that heartbreaking call that a loved one was killed by an impaired driver. These are the families that Mad and I work with every day. MADD values our partnership with Waymo and looks forward to continuing our shared mission of making roadways safer, especially here in Boston. We support innovation that prioritizes safety and accountability. Together we strive to reduce the number of people of all ages affected by impaired driving and other dangerous behaviors on our roads. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Greg?

Good afternoon, Councilors. Well, good evening. My name is Greg Dalmy, and I'm President and CEO of the Carroll Center for the Blind in Newton, Mass., just five to six miles from Boston. and a major service provider for those living and traveling to Boston. For nearly a century, our mission has been to empower people who are blind and visually impaired to live independent and fulfilled lives. I'm here today to urge you to support Waymo's entry into the Boston market and oppose Ordinance 1432. This isn't just about technology and we've heard that comment multiple times today. It's about equal access. It's about dignity. It's about independence for thousands of individuals with disabilities, residents of our state and the city of Boston. There are real and current transportation barriers Despite laws protecting service animals, blind travelers are routinely refused rides by human drivers. I've witnessed, and many of our clients report to me, that they're left stranded facing verbal confrontations are forced to justify their rights again and again. In a state that has historic is known historically as a progressive state in serving individuals with disabilities that we should be all so proud of. I appreciate all the comments made here today because we're all listening to each other and to me that's gold. And if we get things, takeaways on both sides out of today's meeting, there's nothing better that can happen. So, additionally, public transportation isn't always available, accessible, and safe. Autonomous vehicles do provide safety, a feeling of security and confidence, for the blind, vision impaired, and other disabled communities. Transportation barriers do limit employment, academic and healthcare access, and social participation. all key words we hear and especially you as councilors representing this great city very often. Transportation inequity is one of the biggest barriers to full inclusion I had 11 members of the Senate at the Carroll Center talking about the importance of our transportation system not too long ago. And the Lieutenant Governor was there in March. Autonomous vehicles offer a solution. Autonomous vehicles don't discriminate. They don't see a guide dog, a cane, or a disability. They simply see a passenger who needs a ride. They provide consistent, reliable service that treats every rider with dignity and respect. Autonomous vehicles can be programmed for accessibility with voice prompts, tactile controls, and predictable pickup drop-off procedures. and markets like Phoenix, Waymo has already partnered with blind and disability organizations to improve accessibility features and training. This technology is not Theoretical. It's working safely in other cities today. And I've experienced Waymo firsthand on numerous occasions without a single issue. Let's make further strides towards equity inclusion together. Boston has long been a city of innovation and leadership and still is. Embracing autonomous vehicles is an opportunity to lead again. This time in accessibility and equity, in potential growth. Supporting Waymo's entry means supporting freedom and independence for so many. It means that a person who is blind can go to work, Visit family, attend a Red Sox game without fear of being refused a ride. I think this room is not filled to capacity today, and there were some theatrics that I heard earlier. which was very disappointing. I think if everyone was very confident that they could have got a ride share here today, there wouldn't have been enough room. There would be no seats in this room. not trying to be theatrical, trying to be realistic. Councilors, we often talk about accessibility as a value. including independents, this is a moment to act on that value. We can be better. By allowing Waymo to operate here, you're not just welcoming innovation, You're opening doors for thousands of residents who simply want the same freedom of movement that others take for granted so often. There's enough transportation and growth. We've all seen that, right? and for your kind consideration today to hear on both sides and to think that we could accommodate everyone's needs without job loss. I think that can be done. The gentleman said there's things that Waymo can do that others can't often. There's opportunities not to be one or the other or black and white. There's a lot of gray here that can help all sides grow. and everyone's objectives can be met. And I think your own points, I felt a little unfair sitting up in the stands hearing from you. It sounded to me that decisions have already been made without hearing from the appropriate communities. And that's sad because I don't think that's our state. And I appreciate all of you equally. And I hope the takeaway today is to really hear from all sides to make these important decisions and wherever it goes, whatever side may suffer in some way, it's equally important that this day doesn't end to address the union issues that may exist to address the issues of the blindness and other disabled communities that still exist because that is going to happen with decisions that these challenges and opportunities present. So I leave this and ask you for your continued support and fight because you're fighting here today. and for that I'm grateful, but I'd really like you to continue that fight in the future so that we can address all the issues that you've heard today, because I haven't heard one that didn't bring great value. So thank you very much for all of your attention and the opportunity today.

Thank you, and thank you all so much. Please, no applause. Thank you. Okay, so we'll go to questions again from my colleagues, first with the lead sponsors and co-sponsors, and then in order of arrival. Everyone will have six minutes, starting with Councilor Santana. You have the floor.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for our panelists for being here. I think I definitely want to just address some of the things that we just mentioned. What we saw earlier, I don't think it was theatrics. I think there are people here who are fearful of their jobs and their future. And they're passionate about that. And I just want to respect that and respect those voices. Just because people are passionate doesn't mean that it's theater and people are fighting for their jobs and their livelihood. I do appreciate the individuals who did testify and share their concerns. This is something that I think the city of Boston and all of us need to look at on how do we make all ride shares accessible to everyone. And I'm looking forward to those conversations. I've had those conversations as well. Some of the things that I'm hearing, Waymo's not a person, right? I think you are speaking like Speaking about Waymo and this car as if they were a person. It's a robot, right? And it's a computer. So I just want to make that clear. I do want to ask a few questions. I think, you know, first I want to touch on the impact of the workforce, right? You said that driverless cars will push for transportation. Let's talk about the workforce already doing this work. Basic principles of supply and demand will suggest that the introduction of self-driving cars Competing with drivers for four trips will mean job losses for the tens of thousands of drivers who currently rely on driving for their livelihood. What interest would Boston have in allowing that to happen?

The question was, what interest does Boston have in allowing a technology that's going to result in job losses? I just want to make sure I understand that correctly. I can't imagine you would have an interest in allowing a technology that would result in job losses. What I can tell you, and I think I said this in my testimony and I said this in July, The job losses that you've been hearing about today, we are not simply seeing that in the markets where we have been operating for several years now. I said it in my testimony. The taxi, limousine, and for hire vehicle industry is alive and well in San Francisco. It is alive and well in Phoenix, where we've been operating for five years. That is not the reality on the ground. What I do think is important to talk about though is the sheer ecosystem of jobs that the autonomous vehicles creates. You see a Waymo vehicle without a driver and you automatically equate it with a one for one job loss for people that are driving for a living. The reality is that a service like Waymo requires a tremendous amount of hardworking people to make that work. Vehicle technicians, dispatchers, fleet managers, people working in our offices, cleaning the vehicles. We are very excited about the job growth that we are going to create. And I'm very excited about what we can be doing here in Boston, working with groups like the Ben Franklin Institute of Technology, The Clubhouse Network in Nubian Square. We've already had conversations with them and I'm excited about expanding those programs.

So you mentioned about the job creation that you think Waymo will create, right? So the majority of rideshare drivers chose this line of work because of its independent and its flexible nature. If Waymo is proposing alternative forms of employment, How will drivers be able to maintain the flexibility that they value so much?

How are drivers going to maintain their flexibility while working at Waymo?

You talked about Waymo producing more jobs. I'm saying that you're taking away jobs. You're pushing back, saying Waymo is going to be creating jobs. And I'm talking about the ride shares. They have flexible schedules. They can accommodate different things that they have going on in their life. How will drivers be able to maintain that flexibility that they value so much?

I think drivers are going to continue maintaining their flexibility in their jobs like they maintain in all of the markets where we currently operate. In San Francisco and in Phoenix, they continue to drive. They continue to get passengers. That will be no different in the future cities that we operate in. It continues to be a matter of consumer choice.

Great. And then you talked about The data shows that people aren't losing jobs and people aren't. So the data that I received from Gridwise shows driver wages have changed in cities where they are autonomous vehicles on the road, not necessarily Waymo, but autonomous vehicles, right? They found that hourly paid dropped in every AV active market. Additionally, in San Francisco, Waymo grabbed nearly 30% of the ride share market in just 20 months. This data points towards an important question about how Waymo and other AVs will affect jobs in local communities. How can we account for the economic consequences of reduced earning and reduced purchasing power if rideshare drivers are forced to compete with driverless cars? And I want to mention, right, driverless cars do not get tired, right? They're not. So you're competing against people. And you can work all night. You can work all day without any breaks. and I do think that this will affect the workforce development that we have here. I hear you saying that's not. How can you assure that?

So I haven't seen those figures that you just referenced. The figures that I referenced, those are from the city of San Francisco. That was reported in The Economist earlier this fall. I think you were referencing market share. I was referencing more that the taxi and limousine and for hire vehicle industry itself has increased. You talked about economic impact. What we have seen in San Francisco, and I mentioned this in my testimony, is that the presence of Waymo in that city has generated a significant amount of economic impact. People are taking Waymos, they're traveling to cities where Waymo operates because they think it is a tourist attraction among other many tourist attractions that these cities have to offer. When they go there, they are using Waymo, they are going to restaurants, they are spending money, They are shopping at local businesses. So there is an economic output, a positive economic output associated with this.

I think the same thing can be said about Uber and Lyft drivers. They get into places. I do know my time is up, so I'm looking forward to the next round of questions. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much. And just a reminder, please no use of signs. Thank you. Okay, next we have Councilor Murphy.

Thank you. Thank you for... Your remarks and just, I think it's always important to make sure we hear both sides and have a balanced conversation. And when we had the testimony in the middle, just thank you for everyone who spoke and you know got me just making sure that we respect and understand that not everyone has the same needs and not everyone gets around the city and lives their life the same way. So we have to, when we make these decisions and have these conversations, make sure that everyone's voices are heard. So I heard all of you and respect that and want to make sure that, you know, We continue to, when we talk about making sure labor is at the table, that we're also making sure that there are everyone else, right? That there's a seat for everyone and that we work this through because we can do that. We're a city that can make sure that we're listening to the voices of everyone and come up with a good plan. And I know it's been said that it may sound to some that things have already been decided, but I think this is just the beginning of the conversation. And for me, at least, I know that nothing has been decided yet. It's just putting out This hearing order, having this conversation, and then it's the beginning of making sure that we get it right. I do have some questions specific to the industry and if others want to. also chime in, that's great too. There's talk, and I'm not sure if any, are there any trained safety operators that drive along that are present in any of these Waymo vehicles?

In markets where we enter for the first time, we have a phased-in approach. So we have a period of time when we have mapping, and in that mapping phase, we do have trained human safety operators behind the wheel. After we collect a certain number of miles, we will then move into what we call the autonomous data collection process. So again, we still have a train safety human operator behind the wheel at that point. However, when we get to a level where we feel confident in the data that we are seeing, we remove that safety operator and the vehicles begin to drive themselves like we do in many markets across the U.S.

If it came to this, would you commit to publicly releasing safety data and incident reports for every autonomous vehicle operating in Boston?

So right now we publish all of our safety data online. The same data that we report to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, that data is available on our website. and so I'd be happy to have a conversation with you about what data specifically the council is interested in and we can certainly explore it.

What data do you look at to phase out The safety driver, that operator that sits in the car. There must be some benchmarks you're trying to hit.

Yeah. It's a complicated process. One I'm probably not going to be able to accurately describe in the two minutes and 54 seconds we have left on this. It is a wide-ranging thing in terms of miles we collect, things we're seeing while we're driving. But again, we'd be happy to talk with you offline about that process.

In knowing that every city's different and Boston, as it's been said many times, where our streets are much different than California, do you start fresh or are you... allowed to take data from past cities.

Typically, when we're looking for performance data, it's for that market specifically. So I think we obviously have a tremendous amount of learnings that we have from other markets where we do tens of thousands of rides every single day. What we look at a future market in Boston, we would be particularly curious about what the performance data is specifically on these streets. I don't think we would be sort of comparing that to other cities.

In these other cities where it's already happening, could you just talk through what the conversations with labor were and were there any compromises or did any labor unions come to some agreement?

We're having conversations across the country in markets where we operate in terms of workforce. What I can say in San Francisco, for example, we did partner with IBEW, the local chapter there for the installation of our electric vehicle chargers in our facility. So I don't know that that program has been expanded to other locations, but again, it has been done before to answer your question and would welcome

Okay, those are all my specific questions. I know, like I said, we're at the beginning phase of a long process, so thank you for coming and sharing Thank you, Councilor Murphy. I'll turn the floor over to Councilor Flynn.

You have the floor. Thank you, Mr.

Chair. The Boston police regulate the taxi industry and the state public utilities regulate the Uber and Lyft. What agency would regulate Waymo?

It's a really good question, Councilor. Most of the way in which we are regulated, that is dealt with in state legislation. So in the 25 states across the US, it varies state by state. Some require us to be treated as TNCs. and so therefore we would be regulated by the same agencies that other TNCs are. The legislature, at least here in Massachusetts, has not contemplated exactly what that regime would look like.

So there's active discussion up at the State House now on this particular bill?

Yes, there is a bill that is live in the legislature that would allow for the deployment of autonomous vehicles.

Is the state looking to Boston to sign off on this or is the state looking to sign off on it and then giving cities and towns the options of opting in.

I wouldn't want to speak for the state or the state legislature. The bill was only introduced a few months ago. It did have a public hearing in June. I believe that it is just in the sort of beginning phases of a conversation, which I'm sure that the city of Boston will be a very big part

I represent a district that's very challenging to navigate an automobile around, including Chinatown, or the Bay Village, or South Boston, even at the south end. Other colleagues brought up the conditions of the weather, such as snow or other issues. How would you factor in the difficult driving areas of particular neighborhoods in Boston and what is the safety record of Waymo as it relates to other Challenging cities or towns across the country with dense neighborhoods

Yeah, so I think across, we operate in a bunch of different markets with different traffic conditions. You have very narrow streets and densely populated areas like San Francisco, right? So this is not something that is new to us. What I can say about our safety record is that after 96 million miles, the technology has been proven to reduce serious injury causing crashes by 91% and airbag deployment crashes by 79% compared to humans. So I think as far as the safety record, We feel very confident that this technology can navigate any road environment, including the complex and unique ones that Boston has to offer.

So let me just follow up on a question my colleague asked. So other unions across the country have gone on record in working with Waymo in partnering with you even though it costs jobs. Is that accurate to say?

What I would say is that we have a partnership that existed in San Francisco with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. I don't know of any other active discussions with unions at this moment.

No, is that partnership? For electric vehicle charging stations, or is that for eliminating workers that drive these vehicles and putting in automated Thank you. Thank you.

Again, I did not work on this partnership directly, but what I can tell you is that it involved specifically the installation of EV chargers at our facilities.

That's not the issue we're discussing here. The issue we're discussing here is eliminating drivers and having computers drive the vehicle. I'm not talking about installing infrastructure in a parking lot. That's a different issue. So my question again is, labor unions are going on record in support of eliminating jobs and supporting autonomous vehicles in their jurisdiction. Is that accurate to say?

I'm not going to speak on behalf of IBEW or any other labor organization in the country. What I can tell you is that in San Francisco, we had a partnership for a very specific purpose. I'm not going to speculate on what their position is as it relates to autonomous vehicles and the loss of driver jobs.

I can only imagine a labor union being adamantly opposed to this. If it's going to cost workers jobs, I couldn't see a labor union being in support of this. That's my own opinion. So there really is no partnership then, if that's accurate to say. There is no partnership with organized labor as far as I can see with organized labor. with Waymo and unions across the country. Is that accurate you're saying?

Again, outside of the example I just gave, I'm not aware of any other active discussions with labor unions.

So then Waymo is, is coming into cities and towns, taking away jobs. I think unions are fighting back, in my opinion, doing the best they can, but Waymo has a lot of political influence to make things happen. I don't think Labor is giving up, but I don't think the residents of Boston are going to give up either. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Councillor Flynn. Councillor Pepén and then Councillor Brayden.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to Waymo for being here. I also just want to say thank you to the public testimonies for everyone that stepped up to the mic and gave your lived experiences. When a few of you were speaking, Councilor Fitzgerald and I were speaking about The need of and the importance of listening to both sides of an argument and making sure that we're taking everyone into consideration. We've even talked about how we should reach out to Commissioner McCosh from the Disability Commission to make sure that everyone in our city feels like they're well served. and just having a conversation with everyone in this room to make sure that drivers have proper training to deal with someone with a disability or just so that everyone that is requesting a ride feels like they're being properly treated. So just wanted to share that out there. I wanted to ask you all about congestion. Boston, always one of the number one cities with traffic. We are, that's something that we're not proud of. So I wanted to know, have you done any studies in other cities that you already operate on on how adding more vehicles to the roads like Waymo impacts congestion or how many vehicles Would you foresee adding on to our roads?

I don't know what the number of vehicles is that we would expect to deploy in a city like Boston. It's not a stage that I think we've gotten to yet. As it relates to congestion, it is something we're actively looking at in every single market. We hear the concern about congestion is not unique to the city of Boston. We hear it constantly. What I can say is that as a operator of a fleet, one that we control at all times, we have unique abilities that traditional Ride Hale companies do not, right? We can look at real-time data. We can evaluate where it makes the most sense for vehicles to be deployed. We can also make sure that our vehicles are being used efficiently. I think it is something that we have A lot more capability on, and I think as far as Boston, as we begin to have more conversations with stakeholders here about what congestion really looks like, it is something we will absolutely take into consideration.

Try to look at whenever we're talking about any type of vehicles on our roads. I am someone that's trying to get less vehicles on our roads, just so that it's such a congestive issue. But curious when you do have numbers available, if you could share that with us, that'd be good. And then the other piece that I wanted to bring up is that when I was getting ready for the hearing, I came across, I think it was an article that talked about your capability of dealing with winter conditions. And we all know that Sometimes Boston can have very terrible winter temperatures with snowfalls and black ice and just unsafe roads. So I wanted to know, have you all looked at how your vehicles are ready to drive on a street that may not be in the best weather conditions?

Yeah, absolutely. Winter weather capability. And I think we talked a little bit about this in July as well. It's been a primary area of focus for development from the Waymo side. We published a blog on our website actually yesterday, which really I encourage everyone to read and I'll make sure we send that around, which details the level of Research and Development that we have done in this. We have not only done closed course testing as it relates to winter weather, but we've actually done a tremendous amount of winter weather testing on public roads in places like Buffalo, The Upper Peninsula of Michigan, Truckee, California. These are places that get double digit average snowfalls and we have found that we are continuing to get more and more confident, more and more assertive in operating in those conditions. and I think as our blog post made clear, we believe that we will be ready to operate in winter weather conditions in future markets.

Thank you. That's really it for me about questions. Again, just thankful that you all are here answering these questions. and providing the information of the work that Waymo is doing. I'm just grateful that we get to listen to both perspective and just looking forward to voting on this or being able to just work with both sides in the near future. So thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor Pepén. Councillor Breadon. Thank you.

Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Good evening. What time is it anyway? I'm still trying to get my head around how Waymo works. Does it work like Uber, that the car drives around autonomously and then if they get a call, they just go and pick up the passenger and then go on their way? Did they ever stop at a location? Or they have a rest stop or a garage space? And the other question I had was just in terms of I don't know what the size of Phoenix is. Is it a similar size to Boston, maybe more, bigger sprawl?

It's larger.

Larger by population?

It's larger by square mileage.

I don't have the population numbers. We're a very small city, really, compared to Boston. Size-wise. So in terms of the piloting, what was involved with piloting in Phoenix? How did you introduce it? How does it get evaluated? And then the particular issues we have, like many people have already talked about, like winter conditions. It's not even just road conditions, but We even found with our electric buses that they charge about 40% less in the cold, cold winter weather. And they also have charging capacity impeded in the summertime with heat. How do you deal with all these different scenarios?

Excellent. Yeah, and I appreciate the questions, Councilor. I'm going to, I think there was three or four in there. I'm going to try to take them in some form of order. So you asked about how does the service sort of function. So it does function very much like a ride hail service that you're used to using today. In terms of where do the vehicles go and live, we have a combination of, we have depots, so those are facilities where the vehicles are stored, they're charged, they're cleaned, repaired. We also have charging pit stops. Those are smaller facilities where the vehicles are just going to charge up to a certain percentage and then head back out into and many more. I think as far as having them pulled over at any given moment, our goal is to have them serving passengers as much of the time as we possibly can. You asked about how we rolled the service out in Phoenix. So we started off in a community called Chandler, Arizona several years ago. It was a smaller pilot. We worked very closely with stakeholders on the ground there and then sort of began expanding that program beyond just the Chandler area to now where we serve over 320 square miles of the Metro Phoenix area, including the airport. So I think Phoenix was a very good example of how we start with a small territory and then begin to expand outward from that. The last question you asked on winter weather, again, as I just mentioned to your colleague, we continue to evaluate our winter weather capabilities, and it's constantly something we are working on, and again, we feel very confident The other thing I will add though is that like any other service, if the winter weather conditions on the roads prove to be too challenging or dangerous for the safety of our customers, we can pull those cars off the road. and that is something in certain hazardous conditions we have done. The vehicle battery conditions you mentioned, yes, that is something we are actively looking at right now. If you look at any of our markets we currently operate in, we don't have a tremendous amount of extreme winter weather, but we are working on how we're going to address battery charge and range issues, and that'll be something we'll take into account here.

So it seems that a few years ago you were looking at sort of commercial truck Waymo Via. and you said that's been pushed back but it hasn't been taken off the table as an option in the future. Are you still considering that as a further development of food?

I believe you're referring to comments from our CEO. Listen, what I can say is that right now the focus of Waymo is exclusively in the ride-hailing business, and that is the business that we deploy across the country. That's the business that we're working on deploying in more cities. I don't have any information or any updates as to the future of our autonomous trucking business.

I think one of the studies that has been pushed out on already, like this Phoenix...

So we operate in Phoenix, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Austin, and Atlanta, Georgia. OK. All right.

I think one of the things about Boston is it's an old city. We have a lot of infrastructure that has been 100 years old, that's been The roads have been dug up and we have to replace sewer lines. A lot of utilities have been replaced. It's just not an easy place to drive at the best of times. And we do have a reputation of being crazy drivers. I don't know, I think the fact that you haven't had a pilot here, and probably a lot of people in this room wouldn't want you to ever have a pilot here, I think it would be an interesting I think you might uncover a lot more challenges than you might expect in Boston compared to some of these more modern cities that have a better street grid, et cetera, and a more modern and Transportation Infrastructure. But anyway, thank you for being here and I think it has been a broad-ranging conversation this afternoon. getting everybody's input from all many different sides has been very helpful. Thank you.

Thank you.

Madam Chair.

Thank you, Councillor Breadon. Councillor Mejia.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I want to first start off by thanking the public testimony. To my colleague's earlier point, it's so important for us to hear from everyone as we make decisions that are going to impact the quality of life for those that we serve. So having you here was really important. I just want to thank you for The time and energy that it took for you to be here to utilize your voice because after all, our jobs are to amplify those voices. So I just want to start by affirming and how important it is to me as your city councilor to listen. And at the same time, I also want to take the opportunity to acknowledge that You know, having been in this chamber just this morning hosting a hearing where there's lots of us versus them and pitting people against each other, right, is such a bad practice. and what we have done here today, what we have done here today is we brought vulnerable populations together to talk and debate an issue that at the end of the day, at the core of it, who stands to benefit from that are not the people that we're trying to serve or the people that we're trying to protect. So I just want to name that that was very poor taste, in my personal humble opinion, While I think it's important for us to get that on the record, I think what it did is provided us as a council an opportunity and a roadmap of the things that we need to do to better serve the disability community, not what Waymo needs to do to better support the disability community. So I just want to thank you all for laying all of those things out because I don't think the issue is a replacement of Uber drivers. And I don't think that's what you're advocating for. What you are advocating for is dignified transportation to where you need to go to. And you're not advocating on behalf of having Waymo be the vehicle that gets you there. So I just want to note that for the record, that as we continue to have these conversations, we're going to be laser focused on the equity and the justice of it. OK? So I just want to name that that was very poor taste. to utilize folks who are already vulnerable to fight on behalf of those who have so much more than any of us here. But thank you. Now that we've got it all on the record, we will fix it. So to that point, Waymo. and I'll start with the CEO maybe. How can we utilize Waymo instead of replacing our app drivers to improve the quality of experiences for those folks who have complained?

I think utilizing Waymo in an autonomous vehicle opens the door for elimination of practices, illegal practices of discrimination.

No, that's not the question. The question is, right, because you talk about your technology and your ability to be, you know, like how can you utilize your technology skills to improve The app to improve the quality of experience of these cars that are driving but without replacing the workforce. I mean like that's what I'm trying to get at.

Okay, there's technology advancements that From an accessibility standpoint, the blind, vision impaired, and other disabled have access to, whether it's on an iPhone or other device, that the Waymo vehicles allow access to.

Right, but then the question is, Gary, the question is, and what I need to hear from you, right, is how do we utilize those same tools Right? To equip current cars so that they can better serve the disability community without replacing our app drivers. That's the question.

That, I'm not that technology advanced to answer that question.

But you're the CEO of a technology company. No, I'm not.

I'm the present CEO of the Carroll Center for the Blind.

Okay.

I'm a service... Organization CEO. We serve mostly newly blind and those blind from birth.

But how do you see a technology company working to help support that?

I've seen Waymo and countless technology companies improve the lives of everyone with disabilities over decades. Just like medical advancements in eye care and surgeries and research technologies providing equal access, improvements and bettering lives of so many. and so I think Waymo coming into this market has an opportunity to provide a greater level of independence Through both technology advancements, with apps and so forth, that drivers today Don't offer in certain circumstances.

But do you see, is there a world in which that could happen without having to replace the workforce? without having to harm.

I think, you know, I think there's too many assumptions here. My mother always taught me not to assume. and with something to follow there. I think the transportation needs, because a lot of these comments have been I think, I think. I have seen the demand for transportation. Blindness and severe vision loss is gonna double by the year 2050. and we have tremendous amount of growth in the disability community. We've had and witnessed, we thought the big dig in the city of Boston was gonna handle all the issues in traffic congestion. There's so much growth. I think there's going to be so much opportunity for everybody. I think and I truly hope.

I don't want any job loss. I hope so too. I'm with you. I hope so too. I'm going to wait for my second round because I do have some more questions. Unless you want me to finish.

Well, how many questions do you have? I have four more. Okay, and then Councilor Santana actually has more, so we'll go back for a second round. But if you want to keep going, or one last.

Well, I was going to say, Gary, that I am... It's Greg.

Greg.

Oh my God, so somebody gave me the wrong piece of paper because they got you as the CEO of Waymo. My team better get it together. Okay, so let's go back. Let me just stay with you real quick, right? I think there is a world in which we can do both, as you mentioned earlier. There is a way in which we can improve the quality of experience for our disability community while also maintaining the integrity of our workforce and we're not hurting our low-income workers. I believe that's what I'm invested in and I believe the state and the city and the federal government can step up in bigger ways I want you to know that that's where I'm coming from and I appreciate your testimony and your advocacy, but I want you to understand what I'm hoping for in our time together.

Thank you very much. OK. I actually do have questions for you this round. I do think it's important to say, though, everybody has their own individual agency and ability. I'll start myself. Thank you. Everybody has their own agency and advocates on their own behalf and I think to suggest otherwise is also Operating under certain assumptions however if you are a lobbyist and you're getting paid you have to just put that as a disclaimer so I think if anybody's questioning that if anybody has and many more. If you have been paid by any sort of special interest, you have to make sure that you register that. But I think for the advocates that have been here and that have provided public testimony, on those in favor of this. I think it's important to say that everybody has their own individual agency and they were here on their own accord. So my questions have to do primarily with your technology. I'm still trying to We had asked for data because he had said something to the effect of We've driven 96 million miles. It's X amount of percentage safer than other cars. And I had asked for data on that, and I hadn't received it. So can you just expand on that? And can I make a formal request to Waymo to please receive that?

Yeah, and I'm sorry that we didn't follow up with you. Again, that data is on our website as well, but I will be happy to make sure that our staff gets that to you and your team. So we did is we looked at 96 million miles of real world driving that the Waymo vehicle has done and compared that to what human beings would have done in the same distance. and what we noticed is when looking at the three most serious categories or the two most serious categories, that being serious injury-causing crashes and airbag deployment crashes, the Waymo vehicle reduced Airbag deployment crashes by 91% and serious injury-causing crashes by 79% compared to human beings. And what that nets out to is a five times fewer and many more instances in which there is a serious injury causing crash. But again, we're happy to send you all the safety data that expands on that.

and there was also a comment that was made about for passengers that are visually impaired the car accommodates to their needs could you expand on that about what the car actually does and how What the technology actually looks like in practice.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's something that we have been incredibly proud to work with that community on for the last decade. Things that we have designed in direct as a result of actual feedback that we have gotten from customers with vision impairments. So things like haptic features on the phone. So as that person is trying to locate the phone, the phone will vibrate as they're getting closer to the car that is that's designated for them. We also have things where there's unique melodies that will play from the car. When we started that, it was just the car could honk. As we deployed several hundred vehicles in San Francisco, for example, a chorus of honking cars was not particularly helpful. So that community reached out to us and said, you need to do better, which we did. So now there is a unique melody that will play from that vehicle So that that person understands that it is the car they're supposed to go in. But that technology then translates into the actual experience within the car. So the car, when they get into the vehicle, they can turn on audio commands The vehicle is telling them exactly what turn they're making, exactly what intersection they're at and ultimately when they are approaching their destination. So these are just some examples of the features that we have designed exactly with that community in mind.

Thank you, and I know that you can't say how many cars would be deployed in Boston, but how many have you deployed in LA, London, San Francisco, and New York City?

I don't have those exact numbers, but I can say it's in the ballpark of hundreds of vehicles per each one of those markets.

OK. And they do, I guess, what's the market share With Uber and Lyft and you had said that there is no impact on Uber and Lyft and folks were getting into both. It's an and or or it's a and Conversation, not either or. So do you have any numbers about the market share, about the percentage of how many people are using your technology versus Uber and Lyft in those cities?

I don't have any of those figures in front of me right now.

Thank you so much. And they stop for construction zones and school buses?

Correct. Yes, we encounter construction zones on a regular basis. They pop up often in very real time and our vehicles have the ability to navigate around those. And then in addition to that, we have the ability to communicate that information in real time to the rest of the fleet so they can avoid those construction zones as well.

What happens when somebody tries to accommodate the vehicle?

If someone tries to get into the driver's seat and take over the steering controls, that immediately notifies someone in our rider support team, and so they can immediately come through the audio system in the vehicle. Tell that individual to get out of the driver's seat. If they don't do that after a few seconds, the vehicle will pull over. If they continue not to get out of the vehicle, law enforcement will be contacted.

And what if you're on a highway? What happens in that instance?

Well, at this point, we don't have passengers that are actively in vehicles on the freeway right now. So we haven't had that instance happen on a freeway.

I represent a community that has an international airport and so we have an insane amount of impacts of people coming in using cars we breathe in that CO2, in addition to the ultrafine particulates that come from jet fuel. I am very worried about this impact. Are your cars all electric?

They're fully electric. So for every 250,000 rides we do, we remove 315 carbon dioxide emissions. And so we're incredibly proud to operate a fleet of electric vehicles.

I'm still very concerned about the congestion. We need to move people, not cars. So that's always similar to my colleague. That's a stance that I'll always take and I think my last question just it's in regards to state regs versus city regs has there been any instance where for is for example in Phoenix I don't know what the neighboring city municipalities are in Phoenix but what happens when There's a car in Boston, for example, say that we regulate this, or it actually happens, I'm not saying that it will, but it's actually in Boston and it goes to Newton. What happens then? Have you seen an instance like this anywhere else in the state where you have regulations for one city but not the other and there's been an absence of state regs?

We have not. In the 25 states that have enacted legislation, the regulation of autonomous vehicles is governed exclusively at the state level. I think some of the thinking was to avoid a patchwork of regulations like the ones you're describing. Our vehicles often It would make things incredibly difficult.

Okay, sorry, one last as chair. You had said that we could potentially add jobs. I'm going to ask it again. Have you created jobs anywhere else that you can point to? How many? Can we receive that information if you don't have those numbers?

I don't have specific job creation numbers, but again, we have fleet managers, vehicle technicians working in our depots. In addition to that, we have workforce development programs that we are actively launching. with community colleges and vocational schools across the country. And I'd be happy to follow up with you on specifics.

Thank you. We'll go for a second round. Councilor Santana will do four minutes.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Excuse me. Yeah, I just want to emphasize that I really appreciate the individuals who came and testified earlier. I think Councilor Mejia, I think, said it perfectly. I was trying to find the words. I think both can be true in terms of being able to do a better job at serving all of our residents and that doesn't necessarily mean that Waymo is the answer. to get to that point, especially at the expense of our workers. So, you know, I also wanted, you know, I think you said that decisions haven't been made. No decision has been made, right? Today's a hearing. We filed the ordinance. We have a hearing to be able to hear from different people. We bring the different panels to be able to hear different perspectives. We have public testimony to be able to hear from the public. And I'm sure that there will be working sessions other series before Any vote is taken on this piece. So no decision has been made. And I just want to make that clear. I think last time, over a month ago when you were here, you all said that you had no plans of still coming into Boston. Is that still the case?

Correct. We do not have any definite future plans that I'm ready to discuss right now. But as I said in July, and I'll say it again, Boston continues to be an incredibly interesting place that we want to be and we want to serve. And I think as you heard today, there are Constituents and residents of the City of Boston that are eagerly awaiting the arrival of our service.

Does Waymo have a mission statement? We do. And do you have it available?

It is to be the world's most trusted driver.

That's your mission statement?

That is our mission statement. To be the world's? Most trusted driver.

All right. Awesome. So, okay. You know, Councilor Coletta Zapata asked a lot of the questions that I wanted to know because it's really about, again, for me it's about the job creation. and the job, what I think will be job loss, right, from our workers. And you keep saying that it will create more jobs. I just wanna know more about that. You mentioned some of the jobs that you have open, right? It doesn't necessarily mean that they will be occupied by Boston residents or drivers here. You can bring in. People from your own company, from other places. So definitely would like to have more data on the jobs that you're creating, because you're saying it, but you're not saying with any data. Or do you have any data on it?

Again, I don't have specific job creation numbers. As I said to the chair, I'd be happy to follow up with you on that. What I can say is you made a point about the idea of whether we would hire locally or bring workforce from out of state. In many of the markets where we deploy things like trained human safety operators those folks are hired locally. And so that is, again, we're not shipping workforce in from out of state. And so I think as we think about what a future market would look like in Boston, that is exactly the approach we would take here as well.

Have you had any conversations with any unions, whether that's here in the city of Boston or some of the other cities that you partner with?

As I said to your colleague, we have previous examples of partnerships with organized labor, like the one with IBW. Here locally, we have not begun conversations with organized labor.

Can I ask why? If that is the case, why haven't those conversations begun?

As the company has not made a final determination of what our future will look like here in Boston, it feels premature to begin those conversations.

I think they're pretty much there, I think. As early as those conversations start, I think those would better serve the community, the residents, and build trust, which I think is within your mission statement to be the most trust. So I think that's part of it, especially if you're Coming in and targeting a workforce development of people who feel vulnerable that they're going to be losing their jobs. So I encourage, I spoke to a rep from one of your now, I know they're not here today, spoke to them yesterday, great conversation. But those are the things that I think if you really want to build trust, conversations need to happen. Could not agree more. Testing has already begun. So since testing has begun, I think it's not really to have those conversations, in my opinion.

The testing is concluded. We don't actively have vehicles here at the moment, but I could not agree more with you about having more conversations, and I know that myself and Anthony, who you met with yesterday, were eager to have those.

Great. Well, again, I do appreciate you all being here and answering our questions. I think there's still a lot more discussions that need to be had, and I don't think that necessarily I think I've learned a lot from today, and I've been able to hear from a lot of different residents. And again, this is just the beginning. We are learning. I think hearing from residents, I think we as a city council, as a city, I don't necessarily think that it needs to come at the expense of workers and our drivers and it doesn't necessarily mean that Waymo is the solution to that. It could be. I don't think it necessarily has to be. I think that's the way that you're approaching this is that I don't even remember when you came last time. I don't remember having the conversation of you serving the disability community. And now it's looked like now because we have this hearing that you're now making it a point of focus.

With all due respect, Councilor, I think that those voices were not heard appropriately at the last hearing. And that's why I don't think you heard them.

I agree. And I want to make sure, such as the lead sponsor, that those voices are heard. And I'm going to make sure that my team and partnership with my colleagues that we are proactively reaching out to that community to make sure that they are reflected in this ordinance, right? But I don't think that necessarily Waymo is the solution to that. and I really want to talk to that community to see how we can better serve them as a council. So sorry, Chair, I know I'm way over time and I know my other colleagues and I know there's people here who want to testify. So again, thank you for being here and thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. We have Councillor Breadon and then Councillor Mejia. Councillor Breadon, do you have additional questions?

I think I wanted to run back to the question I had about cyber security and the vulnerability that we're all feeling at the moment with regard to It pops up all over the place. What sort of strategies do you have to avoid cyber attack and basically crashing your system?

Yeah, I appreciate the question. Obviously, I think to your point, cybersecurity is on the minds of everyone. And I think specifically here at Waymo, when we operate this type of technology, it has been something we have been monitoring and developing technologies and making conscious decisions about how we prevent intrusions like that. So one of the things, and again, a lot of our protections That's not something I'm going to go into in a public forum, of course, but what I can say and what I have said publicly in other settings like this is one example is all of the main steering components, so things like the brakes, the wheels, All of those main steering components, we have actually protected those from remote access. And so those core functions of the vehicle, those are not able to be accessed by a foreign actor. And so we have taken many steps even beyond that But cyber security is top concern for us and we continue to evaluate threats.

Is there a way that a cyber security attack could just crash the system and your car would just be immobilized?

Again, I'm not a cybersecurity expert. What I can say is in the event of some sort of network disruption, which sounds a little similar to what you're describing, The vehicles actually have a lot of their capabilities on the vehicles themselves, not living in a cloud. For example, in the event of a network disruption like that, those vehicles have the ability to pull over into what we call a minimal risk condition. So if there is a network disruption, those vehicles can pull over and they can wait for future commands from us as far as what they're supposed to do. So it's not as though in the event of that, the vehicles would just be stopped in the middle of the street or driving around. They would pull over on their own.

And then in the event of an incident like that, is there a way that The car can communicate with first responders Something's weird going on here with this car.

So we interact with first responders on a regular basis, even outside of the ID or area of cybersecurity. So we have... First of all, we have a group of individuals at Waymo that all they do is first responder engagement. So that is a team in-house. They're all former retired law enforcement or first responder. And they actually go across the country and train first responders on how to interact with our vehicles. and I think today we've actually trained about 22,000 members of the first responder community. But even when they're interacting with the vehicles, there's things with it. There's a QR code on the side of the vehicle that the first responder can scan. and understand how to interact with the vehicle. Normally what'll happen is the windows will lower and a member of our team will actually come through the audio system and be able to communicate in two way with the first responders. That very much is something we deal with on a regular basis.

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's on my head. Thank you, Councilor Burden. Councilor Mejia.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And before I dive into some of my additional questions, for the folks who came here to speak on behalf of the disability community, I'd love to be able to organize and work alongside you all to make sure that we get this right for y'all. So I want to work with you and Greg, just for the record, I got your name right. I definitely want to work with you. So that we can figure out a pathway that does not pick one group against the other and that we can all win. That should be the goal that everybody wins and no one gets left behind. So that's going to be my objective as a community organizer to work alongside the disability community so that we're not causing harm to our drivers and you get where you need to be without the use of Waymo. That's gonna be my number one priority. How's that sound to you, Greg? That sounds good, right? Okay, got that, all right. So, now, how many of your, so let me make sure I get everybody's name right, Matthew.

That's correct. I'm not the CEO, but I appreciate the promotion.

I didn't give you a promotion. I gave it to Greg. Don't even try it. I thought he was the boss of all of this, so don't even try it, Matthew. Matthew. Yes. How many of your workers are unionized?

I am not aware of their classification at this time.

Do you have any unionized labor workers within your efforts?

Again I'm not aware of their classification.

Wait, so you are part of government affairs and policy and you do not know whether or not you have a workforce that is unionized, yes or no?

We have many workforces across the country in different capacities. I'm saying to you right now in this moment, I'm not aware of what their union classification is. But I'd be happy to follow up with you.

Yeah, please do. I'd like to note that for the record that I'd like to know whether or not you are unionized or would you consider then how about this would you consider like God forbid, if this ever were to happen, if you were to do business here in the city of Boston, would you have a commitment to making sure that everyone that works for Waymo is 100% unionized?

I'm not in a position to make that commitment right now.

So now you understand why we're afraid, right? Because we're not making commitments. This is a long-term relationship that we want to enter in, and you're not making any commitments. What you're making If you're not willing to make those type of commitments so that you can assure our workforce so that they can feel less hostile towards this whole conversation, this is a really great opportunity for us to enter to some sort of

So, Councillor, let me tell you what I can make a commitment on today. What I can make a commitment on today is to having a robust discussion with you, with other individuals in this whole debate that we've had today about what you believe the workforce needs to look like in the autonomous vehicle industry in Boston. That I can commit to you today to having a conversation.

So my hope is that we could have A conversation that helps address some of the issues that the disability community has addressed without taking out my workforce. So let me ask you this question. When there is an accident, Right? Who is at fault when it is a robot? Who's held accountable? Who pays for the insurance? Who does the blame fall on? Who comes out and shows what license? What does that look like?

So in the event of a collision, first of all, Waymo carries our own insurance. We do not require our riders to carry their own insurance.

There aren't any riders, because it's a road.

I'm referring to our passengers when they're in the vehicles, excuse me. So we do not require them to carry their own insurance. We carry own insurance in the event of a collision if there is liability for property damage that is imposed on Waymo by By a judgment or a court, Waymo as a company is responsible for that liability.

So what if there's a hit and run? So if someone hits a vehicle... No, so what if one of your robots hits someone and keeps it moving?

So our Waymo vehicles, as soon as there is a collision, they are immediately pulling over and achieving a minimal risk condition. And then our remote assistance folks are going to log in and identify what has happened in that collision.

Remotely? They're logging in remotely?

They're not driving the car, but they can access the cameras that are on the outside of the vehicle to determine what... And what if the cameras are broken? Well, we have 29 of them, so I can't imagine all 29 of them would break in one moment.

Well, I'm just saying, what if, right? Like, we're living in different times right now. You never know.

Sure, so in the event that we can't access any of the 29 cameras, we have a member of our roadside assistance team that can actually go out, that's a human being, and they will go out and verify the condition on the ground.

Okay, I see that my time is up and I'm so sorry that I can't keep doing this, but I am going to respect the process because there are people who are waiting to speak. and I just want to acknowledge that this has been a very robust hearing. I had one earlier this morning. We were here until almost one, after a little bit, after one o'clock debating and it was people who had different diverse experiences and beliefs I think this is what democracy looks like. And so I really do appreciate the time and energy that everyone took to be here today to let us know what you think and what you want us to do. And I still stand firm in my position Because I am who I am, I don't think that this in this moment makes good sense for the city of Boston. Thank you.

Thank you, Councilor Mejia. I just have two more questions, and we do have still way more public testimony, so thank you for your patience, everybody. I'm just trying to think about the entirety of the landscape. Is Waymo the only actor or player in all of this? It's your LiDAR technology. I guess what's the generation of it? How many iterations has it already gone through? To tee up my next question.

I'm not exactly familiar with how many generations of it we've gone through, but I'd be happy to follow up with you about the technical specificity.

Okay. I guess how long has Waymo been in business?

So we've been in business since 2009. So all the technology that you see in the vehicle today is a product of more than 15 years of research and development.

I can't assume you're the only ones here. Is your LiDAR technology, is that proprietary information? Do you have a copyright of it or are there other companies that are looking at it

So LIDAR as a technology is used by other companies, some of them which were mentioned today. So there are other companies in the autonomous vehicle industry and space that are utilizing LIDAR. The LIDAR that we use, that is something that we have and so on.

In the manner in which you're using it, though, where you have the 29 cameras and all of that, is that something that another major company who will not go named but is Produce, the top billionaire in the world. Are they also doing something like this?

I'm not familiar with any other entity, any other company's specific technical operations as compared to how I am familiar with Waymo. I can't speak to those.

I'm just trying to, again, understand the landscape so that we can then regulate and control what is to come, try to anticipate what is to come. If it's not just Waymo, it's more companies that may be doing this, what that may look like. for this and Boston moving forward. So thank you. The other question that I had, I had it and now I don't. Why don't I just move forward because I lost it.

Well, we can always circle back on it.

Thank you. Yeah, and thank you for your testimony and your perspective. I think this is a good representation of democracy, just trying to get all perspective. This is why you all had Thank you, we're going to wrap this up and go to public testimony We have a couple more people still from the speakers list. Okay, we have Natalicia Tracy, Karen Chen, Scott Page, I think Osama's here. Mike Scarpa, Kiki, Arthur, and Tony. In that order, everybody has two minutes. You want to approach the mic? We'll start with, oh, so you all are going to the mic. I apologize. So you're going to public testimony.

Yep.

Okay, we'll start with Natalicia. Please state your name, your affiliation, and you have two minutes.

All right. Good afternoon. I am Natalicia. I'm actually Dr. Natalicia Tracy, the Executive Director of Community Labor United. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. in opposition of driverless cars in city of Boston and the threat it poses to commercial autonomous vehicle. Under Community Labor United, one of our coalitions is Green Justice Coalition, which unites base building organizations in communities of color with the unions and the building trades, transportations, and other sectors. These include organizations of people who live and work in the city of Boston, some of whom are joining us here as individual organizations today. The Green Justice Coalition fights for what we call the triple win. Good jobs, environmental justice, and equity. What a triple win looks like is a public transit system with family-sustaining careers for transit workers, reduced traffic pollution in low-income communities, and affordable Mobility for All. With pathways to union jobs in the climate critical trades for women, working class, and communities of color. What a triple win does not look like is robot taxis clogging our streets, pulling drivers and transit workers out of jobs, and sucking up infrastructure investment with with need for support, equity, and of our environment. In fact, Waymo and other autonomous vehicles corporations would result in a triple failure for our city. One, AVs are a failure when it comes to good jobs. AVs will displace thousands of local Uber, Lyft, taxi drivers, and threat transportation workers in the delivery and trucking industry. Two, AVs are a failure when it comes to environmental justice. Boston is already one of the worst cities for traffic congestion. Adding driverless cars to our old streets will further delay other vehicles worsening trafficking, pollution, environmental justice in neighborhoods. Three, AVs are a failure when it comes to equity. Boston should be spending our limited funds and staff time on ensuring safe and reliable transportation for all. Not all new infrastructure needs the AV corporations required to charge a premium to their customers and maximize shareholders' profit. Boston needs more triple win, not a triple failure. I urge councils to adopt robust protections for Bostonian. Starting by passing the ordinance to conduct a public independent study about the real impact of AVs on workers and residents of Boston. Thank you. Thank you very much. Karen?

Thank you. My name is Karen Chen. I'm the executive director with the Chinese Progressive Association. So CPA has a long history in advancing the rights and voice of immigrant workers and communities in Boston. We are proud to be part of the historic campaign last November to pass Question 3 and gave white-shirt drivers the right to unionize and to have a voice on the job. Last November, the voters said clearly that these drivers are essential workers who deserve fairness and respect. But now, just as they are starting to gain that power, the introduction of Waymo and other driverless cars threatened to undercut all of that progress. If we allow robo-taxis to take over before even understanding that The impacts risk wiping out good jobs and pushing aside the very people community rely on every day. Robotaxi is a trillion dollar industry. I have to Google how many digits in trillion. We expect that this council to stand with the drivers, stand with working people and the disability community to make sure that our communities are protected and we're working for the better of this city. While I'm still learning about AV itself and its trillion-dollar industry, I just know that a human driver can help an elder Elderly or the Disabled to bring groceries to the car while the robo taxi cannot. So I urge you to support this ordinance and need to study the potential negative impact of robo taxis on the job. on Boston's economy and also the environment. Why I don't know all the details, but I know that artificial intelligence requires data centers and that has environmental Implications. And also, I think someone said earlier there's like 29 cameras within these cars. These concerns of privacy is also something that I worry about. So we are asking for a fair public process to ensure that workers in the community have a real voice in shaping the future of transportation. And that I also know that the people who are testifying around the impact on disability community. We look forward for more conversations on that so that we all can rise together.

Thank you.

Good evening. My name is Scott Page. I'm the delegate for Division II of the Boston Carmins Union, Amalgamated Transit Union, Local 589. I rise today to speak on behalf of our president, James Evers, Jr., and the more than 7,000 brothers, sisters, and siblings who operate the buses, trains, streetcars, and everything else at the MBTA. It's our commitment to keep Boston moving and to keep public transit affordable, accessible, and reliable. I'm here to speak on behalf of my union in favor of the ordinance introduced by Councillor Santana. This commonsense approach ensures that we study the impacts of these vehicles, the safety that these vehicles have or don't, and the impact to our local businesses. It also makes sure that workers have a seat at the table to discuss not only what the road looks like going forward, but what our workplace looks like going forward. I'm on these streets every day and so are my colleagues. The way that I see it, Waymo doesn't solve our problems, it adds to them. We don't need another transportation option. We need to invest in our existing infrastructure and to support the workers that our passengers and our communities rely on. Most especially because most of the work that transit workers do goes far beyond the scope of driving a vehicle. We do not need another unpredictable factor on the roads, and we must protect the humanity and the human experience of transit service. Please stand with workers, stand with labor, and support this ordinance. Thank you for your time.

Thank you, Scott. Do you want to come up?

Good evening, city council and staff. My name is Arthur Gluffing, and I'm a proud Teamster since 1996. For more than 30 years, I've worked as a paratransit driver for the East Boston Neighborhood Health Center. I love my job and deeply... for the folks I see every day. I transport elderly and disabled people every single day, people in wheelchairs, people with serious medical conditions, need real care and attention when they travel. I'm here today because putting driver's cars on streets or buses is not just a bad idea, it's a dangerous one. These vehicles put everyone On the road at risk, especially my clients who are some of the most vulnerable people in our communities. A car accident for them could be devastating. It's more likely to be fatal than it is for an average person. Every day I go through a step-by-step safety check to make sure our clients are safe before we even start moving. I'm training CPR on the first day. We go through regular training because need to be prepared for medical emergency. You cannot automate the care, that kind of care. There is no algorithm that can replace what a trained, compassionate human being does behind the wheel. Even autonomous vehicle companies may say they'll have a tenant in the back. It's not enough. You need someone behind the wheel who's fully trained to handle emergency traffic and complexity of our crowded city streets. This isn't just about power transit, it's about public safety for everyone. Boston streets are narrow, dense, and full of pedestrians, bikes, kids, and seniors. You need instinct and common sense, which can't be programmed. These big tech companies will tell you that they're not trying to automate paratransit jobs like mine, and that's true for now, but we know where this is headed. It's not going to stop with one company. It's going to end with jobs like mine, people who transport those who need protection the most. And when there's an emergency in one of those vehicles, Who's gonna act in the time to prevent a tragedy? The answer can't be silent, it can't be software. If that were my mother in the back of the car, if it were your mother, you wouldn't just We wouldn't trust her life to a robot. None of us should. We need trained professionals behind the wheel of every car to protect everyone on the road. Thanks for taking the time to listen to me speak today. I hope that hearing us today will give pause to allowing autonomous vehicles on our streets.

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Good afternoon, Councillors. My name is Ibrahim. We are proud small business owners from the community here in Boston. Our job is run on the business of Uber and Lyft drivers. When Uber came in 2012, we started working with drivers and built our business through word of mouth. It's been good, honest way to support our families and service our community. But now, with Waymo and other driverless cars coming, we are very worried. If drivers lose their jobs, our business could lose everything. We support this ordinance because Boston needs to understand what this change will come. What this change will mean for small business and working families. Thousands of drivers' lives are at stake. Thousands of families are dependent on this business. We raise our kids. We helped our children to go to school. And if we lose this, we're going to be losing most of our businesses, most of maybe paychecks, And we are hoping that we should not rush this technology onto our streets just because big companies from our out of state want it. Please listen to the community. Thank you very much. Thank you, everyone. Awesome.

If we have any other, so we have, I see Jose Sanchez, Juan Felipe, Victoria, but at this point, if you are here to give a public testimony, please come down on one of the two, and we'll give everyone two minutes to testify. And then after yourself, I do want to make sure that... Oops, sorry. Is he here? Elias Ventura? Okay. But you can go ahead. Thank you.

Good evening, everyone. My name is Kristen Della Fano. For years, I owned Pizzeria Rustico on the north end of Boston. When I was forced to close due to the pandemic, I then followed my grandparents' footsteps and I joined Teamsters Local 25. Local 25 gave me a new career in the film industry. This then allowed me to maintain a middle-class lifestyle, secure excellent benefits, and build a stable life doing a job that I absolutely love. With the support of union members like me, Massachusetts invested in film tax incentives a few years ago. It worked. Throughout Massachusetts, jobs and show business are thriving. And the last thing we need are driverless cars causing us problems. Waymo, a Google subsidiary, is currently trying to force Massachusetts to permit driverless vehicles that are under 10,000 pounds. Every day I drive different vehicles, like box trucks, vans, SUVs, driving cast members, stake beds, equipment trucks, and much more. Some of those vehicles are under the weight limit that Google is proposing. None of them should be automated. These jobs required rapid timing, split-second decision making, multitasking, constant communication, and many more other skills far beyond anything AI can provide. That's a challenge for companies like Waymo. It doesn't mean that they will stop trying to destroy our careers. AR companies are looking to make money by putting not just every Teamster, but every union member and show business out of work. They have time, they have resources, and they have tenacity. We fought so hard to build this industry in Massachusetts. It supports thousands of working families and brings millions into our state. Not that long ago, members of local 25 film crew were out of work for over a year because we refused to cross picket lines during the biggest strike that the movie business had seen in decades. We made that sacrifice because those jobs were worth fighting for. The film industry we've built in Massachusetts is worth fighting for. So please, let's protect public safety. Protect the film industry jobs that we just rebuilt. Keep human drivers on set. Keep Teamsters on the job and support this ordinance. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Anybody that wants to come down? Just state your name and your affiliation.

Good afternoon. Thanks for allowing me to speak. My name is Martin Sweeney. I'm a proud Dorchester resident, and I'm the recording secretary for IBW Local 2222 in Boston. IBW 22 represents over a thousand high-tech and telecommunications workers right here in Greater Boston. I'm honored to stand here in solidarity with my brothers and sisters in labor. We are united today with one clear voice, autonomous vehicles are bad for Boston and bad for workers. Companies like Waymo want you to believe that their driverless cars are the next big thing, but we know the truth. Behind the shiny technology and slick PR is a dangerous idea. They're putting technology over people. Profits over safety and innovation over livelihoods. Let's be honest, big tech doesn't care if workers lose their jobs. They don't care about public safety risks and they sure don't care about the working families who keep this city running. Whether you drive an Uber, a UPS truck, an ambulance, or a garbage truck, there is no substitute for a trained, professional human being behind the wheel. Every day, drivers make split-second decisions that can mean the difference between life and death. So here's the question. When a driverless car faces a crisis, who does it protect? and who does it harm? Does it protect its passenger or a group of pedestrians? These aren't hypotheticals. These are real dangers that affect real people, our members, our neighbors, our families, and that's why Local 2222 stands firmly against any attempt by greedy big tech companies to come into Massachusetts and displace thousands of hardworking people, all in the name of automation for a profit. and that profit will not be staying in Massachusetts. That profit will be vacuum sucked right out of Massachusetts and Boston to Silicon Valley. All of these drivers are paying taxes that taxpaying residents of Boston and its neighboring communities. They add to our economy and they add to our life in the city of Boston. Waymo is not an ad for us. I feel any questions that... need to be addressed regarding riders with disabilities can be addressed by going after the corporations. If Uber and Lyft aren't meeting those Needs for those riders and Uber and Lyft have to be held accountable for it. We shouldn't be penalizing drivers and workers in Boston. at the benefit, the only one that will benefit from this is Waymo and Google. I thank you for letting me speak today. Thank you all for your care and attention. Thanks again, have a great day.

Thank you so much.

My name is Tony Amaral. I work for Manfee Leasing, and I've been a Teamster for nearly 30 years. Because of my union card, I have great health care, a pension, and wages that allow me to to become a homeowner and join the great American middle class. I'm here because all this is under attack. Driverless cars and trucks are vastly inferior to me. My coworkers and all my union brothers and sisters. I drive tractor trailers throughout the city. Every day I deal with tight corners, sudden lane changes, double parked cars, motorcycles, unpredictable weather, and more. Navigating those streets safely requires split-second judgment, something no machine can replicate. We already have technology in our trucks with lane guidance, forward-facing sensors, and they make mistakes all the time. Fortunately, I'm there to correct it. Imagine if nobody is. Wayman might tell you that it's only interested in deploying taxis. As we've heard, this will destroy thousands of middle-class jobs. After that, we know what comes next. Freight, sanitation, buses, and eventually every vehicle. I'm close to retirement. I'll probably be fine. I worry deeply about the younger Teamsters, the people building the same middle class life that I've been blessed with. If these jobs disappear, people will lose their homes, families will suffer, and the entire city will be worse off than before. What we're asking for is simple. Keep a trained human operator in every vehicle, keep good union jobs in our communities, and keep our streets safe. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Anybody else want to provide testimony? Okay, I think we've come to the end of the road, as boys and men would say. Right, boys and men? Did I get that right? Okay. Thank you all so much for being here. I appreciate it. I hope everybody gets a chance to go get dinner. and nourish yourself after this strong showing of advocacy and just gratitude to everybody that's here. Thank you to all of our panelists, our folks that provided public testimony, our unions, my colleagues for staying until the very end. Appreciate all of you. And this, clearly we have some work to do. I think there's opportunity for both sides to come together to figure out You know what works for each perspective although I do I do generally support the contents of this ordinance and just want to make sure that it's integrating all of the voices that we heard today appropriately so with that I I'm happy to say that this hearing on docket 1432 is adjourned. Thanks.