Needham Select Board, 5/12/26

Thank you.

Recording in progress.

Good evening. Welcome to the select board meeting for Tuesday, May 12. This meeting is being broadcast by the Needham Channel for the town's YouTube channel and via Zoom. It's being recorded for publication by the Needham Observer and I think the Needham Local. for later viewing. Is anyone else planning to record this meeting? Now is the time to tell the chair. Nobody on mine either. OK, great. So as always, our first order of business is public comment, and I know we have A few. So the first, Karen Carpenter, you want to come on up? You can have a seat there. Just make sure you introduce yourself by name and address. And we're going to try and keep public comment to about three minutes. OK, great. Thank you.

Karen Carpenter, 28 Douglas Road, Needham, 02492. I can begin. Last April 10th is a day many of us will never forget. It was the day businesses first learned the scope of Envision Needham Center. In the days that followed, I spoke with two select board members. One described the pilot as the feedback and the other said Envision was doomed from the start because business owners had been left out of important conversations for months. On that same day, a committee representative stated that the goal of Envision was to make cars secondary and bicycles and pedestrians primary. Those three statements have stayed with me ever since. They explain why so many residents and business owners became deeply concerned about the direction of and the process behind this project. I was raised by a single mom who worked seven days a week to support her three children. She taught us kindness, gratitude, and the importance of community. I saw firsthand how neighbors stepped forward to support

My family during difficult times. That experience stayed with me and shaped the kind of community I wanted to build for myself someday. Having good manners and treating people with kindness was always very important to my mom. And those values were instilled in us by her. During my teaching career, I learned more about communication, behavior and human interaction than any course could ever teach. That experience reinforced the importance of listening, patience, and treating people fairly, especially when disagreements arise. I'm very proud of how we conducted ourselves throughout the debate and work to keep it civil, respectful, and courteous. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe most of us maintain that tone, whether in emails, conversations, or on social media. This debate has mattered greatly to many people. Business owners and residents became involved not because they wanted conflict, but because they cared deeply about this town. Envision followed closely behind the MBTA debate and the large house review study.

three issues that left many residents feeling unheard and disconnected from the decision-making process. What began as a small effort among business owners and property owners grew into a grassroots movement when residents joined in to help. Hundreds attended meetings at Powers Hall. Thousands participated in surveys. People distributed signs, postcards, and information throughout the town. One positive outcome of this debate is the way it brought people together. Residents and business owners from all walks of life became more engaged, more connected, and more invested in the future of our town. Many of us formed lasting friendships and business owners became stronger allies to one another. I hope the Select Board honors the voices of the business owners, property owners, and residents who spoke up consistently during the past year.

the voices of the majority of the Envision Committee and the voices of the majority of town meeting members by voting to keep a four-lane plan while pursuing thoughtful and much needed safety improvements, maintenance and beautification measures that are practical and financially responsible. This community, the one I wished for as a little girl and the one I'm so fortunate to call home, means the world to me and so does the future of Needham Center. Thank you.

Lars, come on up. Same thing, just remember to...

Introduce myself. Thank you. Hi, Lars Onyem, 56 Meadowbrook Road in Precinct F. I'm also a volunteer with Safe, Require, Needham. And I just wanted to come and say thank you to this board for making the vote last night possible. obviously very happy that it was successful. But the other important thing, and I want to include Marianne if I may as well, but the big thing was having the opportunity to have the vote. And I wanted to just remind people a little bit of the history. So in early 2020, the previous version of this board said, we don't need to think about a quiet zone. It's not a priority for the town. And it was brought to an end. And in 2021, when the board was faced with requests from the MBTA to think about reinstating service, adding Sunday service, that's when the debate began. and not six months later this board put back on the capital plan considering a quiet zone.

For all of the success that we feel and there's been hundreds of emails today, people are just jubilant. It couldn't have been possible without this board putting that on the radar to allow for the discussion to happen. and then with all the information we've learned, the twists and turns, you continue to support the discovery and the learning that was necessary to get to the point last night. So I'm ready to start crying. Thank you very much for so many people for just giving us this chance. Thank you. Appreciate you guys very much. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. Is there any other public comment in the room? Anybody online? OK. Come on up, Marianne.

And welcome. Hi there, all of you. I am happy to be on this side of the table instead of on yours tonight. You have the envisioned decision in front of you, and I just want to make a couple of remarks as they relate to that. So I think Carol's brought up a couple of slides. There was some new information, or at least new to me, in the packet. That could be partially because a lot of the Envision packets never end up online, so unless you've actually watched the meeting, you didn't see it. But I thought it was important to look at. Part of what I learned is that there are big age differences that you see when you look at these slides in how decisions sort of rolled out and who was thinking most about most decisions. I think it's important to understand That's kind of how that looks when we think about our population as a whole.

That it is skewed largely, if we can go to the next slide, which is, I started at slide 63, or page 63 in your packet, and then page 65. and then people who have lived in town more than 20 years was the next thing I looked at, being most interested in a four lane plan. and one of the questions that that raised in my mind is what does this tell us? Is this telling us something at this point in time about our capacity and our openness to change. Because I do think, as my friend Ms. Carpenter just said, we had three large initiatives going between Vision, Large House, MBTA communities, there was a lot of uncertainty, I think, in front of everybody. And as you all, some of you all know, I keep saying we actually one of the things I think I'm learning is you all will need to find out how to do less. We're going to have to tell the community that we are going to do less. I think that's going to be important.

Okay, so what does that tell us? On the next slide, looking at design features, page 67 in the packet, This again was quite fascinating to me, looking at the differences between support for different levels of the plan. One of the things that stood out, four lane supporters, 73% with ample on-street parking. Now, I know when we started this discussion, there was tremendous concern about on-street parking. But in fact, I think on-street parking is pretty similar, right, from different plans. Okay, so less sort of focus on some of the other Features in that one. But everybody agrees that some of those other features are still important. The last slide, if we move to that one. Universal Agreement across anybody from all areas for economic development. I am pleased to see that we all want a vibrant downtown. I think that is a value of the town.

But I'm seeing differences in values related to gathering and community, sustainability and resilience. and traffic flow between different plans. I just think it's worth noting in terms of how people are thinking about this. Given all of that, I would urge the Board to consider and please design smart and flexibly. The bulk of the cost is below ground. We are not going to want to redo that at some point in the future, so I hope we can build smartly underground in a way that will let us be more adaptable above ground. if the Needham of 20 years from now has a different view than the Needham of today. I think we're building for the Needham of today with the feedback that you have, but that may change over time. We can't guess what people are going to think about. One of the other things I just want to raise, it's very clear to me and I've been saying for a while, we're not putting bike lanes in here.

But I do want to make a point to the board about bike lanes. My concern about bikes is not grownups. It's the children. Parents want their children to have less screen time, more independence, and opportunities for resilience. That means that we need to create a town and spaces where parents know that their children will be safe on playgrounds, in crosswalks, and on bikes. This is adjacent to Grinsfield. It's all part of a town, right? But what parents know today is that we have heavier, bigger cars driven by distracted adults. who drive their children everywhere because they know that the other vehicles on the road are heavier, bigger cars driven by distracted adults. Right?

That means we need to think about our built environment to make a change to that built environment if we are going to want different behaviors that support our children having the things that we want them to have. We're family-centric, or at least I believe Needham is family-centric. I believe that's what we want to do. That's what we want to set up. So I urge you to think about how do we create the best family-centric environments that support our town. Whatever decision you make, I support you. We will go forward. We will make it the best thing possible. The quiet zone needs to know what this decision is. and I think we're heading toward a four-lane decision, which is fine, but I urge you to make it the best decision we can for everybody we have supporting the goals of families.

Thank you.

I'm going home for dinner.

All right. So that concludes public comment. We're going to move on to our Public Works Week proclamation with Karis Lustig, our Director of Public Works, and Shane Marks, our Assistant Director of Public Works. Welcome. All right, so we'd love to hear what's on the docket for Public Works Week.

Sure. So we are celebrating the 66th annual Public Works Week celebration through the American Public Works Association this year. and every year the american public works association comes up with a different theme you've heard me talk about people purpose presence last year quality of life the year before that and this year it's the theme is rooted in service empowered by community and that really speaks deeply to me as a public works professional and to our employees at public works because the simple fact is public works is not simply about infrastructure it really is about people and the people that we serve in our community and even though most of us don't live here in Needham, we spend most of our time here with our jobs and so Needham really is a community for our Public Works employees.

and the work that we do is about improving the quality of daily lives for every resident in this community and most of our public works employees are rooted in a industry of service they're here because they want to serve their fellow human being and we heard that common theme last night in the last few nights through town meeting on the floor town meeting and it really is about serving our community and that sense of service and that being rooted in service brings that sense of community and so that's what that theme really means to us is Rooted in Service, Empowered by Community. But more importantly than that, what really stands out to me, it's the community, the residents here in Needham that empower our public works employees to do the jobs that they do.

and the work that they do which is evidenced again through our recent town meeting through the approval of our capital improvement plan and our operating budget and I'd be very remiss if I didn't say thank you to the select board for your support to the finance committee members for their support and rigorous and to the town meeting members for their support because all the work that the public works employees do is rooted in service and it's empowered by our community here in Needham by funding our finances and supporting us. So I'd encourage everyone first of all to say thank you to our employees as well because they really do deserve the thanks and we thank the residents for all that they do for us.

I just want to echo that as well. I think last night in the opening remarks that were made before town meeting, it's probably one of the first times I've heard public works spoken so eloquently as far as the services it's delivered. And so I think we talk a lot in our organization about public work staff being sort of the unsung heroes of public safety. They're not very showy. They're not out in front of the public. But you have a winter like the winter we just had. And boy, do people understand the relevance that it has in their lives. Not being able to get out or having Lockages where people can't see around corners and they're worried about their safety. That's when I think really people understand the significance and the hard work and the dedication that public work staff have. so I would say in general I probably have the staff that is like the least likely to want to hear me say that but please if you do see our staff out in public especially during public works week please you know reach out to them and talk about the things in your life your parks your roads

your clean water, whatever it is that you see that you benefit from in the town of Needham from their hard work.

So this week we'll be celebrating. We're kicking things off this coming Saturday. The official Public Works Week kicks off Sunday the 17th and runs through Saturday the 23rd. But in conjunction with Park and Recreation, we're doing the Touch a Truck this coming Saturday at the DeFazio Park Complex. And we'll have tons of our DPW trucks there for everyone to come and play on, not just for kids, but adults too. So we'd encourage you to come out and play in the trucks. In addition to that, we'll have a Public Works truck there. We're doing our fourth annual Phillip Public Works truck food drive. and what's so important about this is we'll be doing this through the 15th through the 29th of this month and all the food that we collect stays here locally and it goes to the Needham Community Council which is very important so all those Food items that we collect will go to local families here and this year we're doing something new. We also have a QR Venmo code.

so if you don't want to bring physical food there you can scan the code and you can make a donation to the community council as well and those funds will stay here and then we'll do our employee appreciation cook off on Thursday the 21st. So it's a week, upcoming week about just celebrating the great work that we do as Public Works and our employees who perform that work. Who's making the burgers? I am again, yes. Thank you.

All right. Well, I just thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I think you're right that a lot of times public works is kind of overlooked. you make everything go so just want to say thank you for doing the job that you do and for the you know everyone who works in public works is also super nice and friendly, which is always really nice for us. So I just want to say thank you and keep up the good work. We're lucky to have you, the whole group.

yeah thank you uh i think i i wouldn't say i i don't think you're overlooked i think you get a lot of attention probably on the negative side, unfortunately. And I think maybe we can rebalance that. I mean, I like seeing Public Works out in public and meeting members of the public and showing that there's that Public Works is serving the public. And I don't want you to only be the recipient of negative comments like I know you often are. So maybe we can help change that.

I just want to say thank you. As part of Exchange, we work very closely with them on a lot of different projects, and it's great. They're always so helpful to us. We have a lot of exciting things coming up this year with the celebration of 250, so we're looking forward to that as well. But I really need to know what time Saturday is so I can tell the grandkids. I will get back to you.

I don't have that in front of me. It's early morning.

I think it's 9 o'clock.

I think it's 9 to 12. Thank you.

All right. Super.

Kevin?

Being on the Select Board, many people come to me, tell me things, even when I don't ask them to. I've never had anyone come to me and say, there's a problem with DPW, or this is wrong, this is bad. I've only heard compliments. Even one went so far as to say, like, the most stand-up guy I've ever met works in one of your departments. So thank you. So I don't know what special sauce you're putting on the hamburgers. but it's working because people like what DPW does, they respect the work, and they honor it too. So thank you very much.

I would just echo the comments of everyone. What you do is absolutely essential. We wouldn't have water coming out of our tap. We couldn't drive down roads. People couldn't go to school. So it is absolutely essential. and you mentioned Karis, the huge snowstorms. And I do remember actually seeing on Facebook big compliments to you guys. So you were recognized and that warmed my heart to see. And we're all just very grateful.

Mr. Vice Chair, do you want to read the proclamation?

Yes. It's very long. I'll try to shorten it. Whereas public works professionals focus on infrastructure, facilities, and services that are of vital importance to sustainable and resilient communities and to the public health, high quality of life, and well-being of the people of Needham, And whereas the quality and effectiveness of these facilities, as well as their planning, design, and construction are vitally dependent upon the efforts and skills of Public Works officials, and these infrastructures, facilities, and services could not be provided without the dedicated efforts of public works professionals and whereas, It is in the public interest for the citizens, civic leaders, and children in Needham to gain knowledge of and maintain an ongoing interest and understanding of the importance of public works and public works programs in their respective communities,

and an informed citizenry is vital to the effective operation of public work systems and programs such as water, sewer, drains, streets and highways, traffic control, public buildings, solid waste disposal, recycling. Parks and Forestry, and Snow Removal. And whereas the year 2026 marks the 66th annual National Public Works Week sponsored by the American Public Works Association and Public Works employees are recognized as first responders who contribute to the health, safety, and comfort of this community, which greatly depend on these facilities and services of Public Works employees who are rooted in service and powered by community. and whereas the efficiency of the qualified and dedicated personnel whose staff and public works departments is materially influenced by the public's attitude towards and understanding of the importance of the work they perform,

Now, therefore, we, the Select Board of the Town of Needham, do designate the week of May 17th through 23rd, 2026 as National Public Works Week. Further, be it resolved that the National Board does hereby proclaim the week of May 17th through May 23rd as National Public Works Week in the town of Needham and calls upon all citizens and civic organizations to acquaint themselves with the challenges involving in providing public work services and recognizing the public works employees and the everyday contributions they make as first responders towards our health. Health, Safety, Comfort and Quality of Life.

all right all those in favor motion passes All right. We're going to turn to a public hearing now for an Eversource grant of location for 24 Aldrich Road. And we're going to be joined by Joanne Callender momentarily. Madam Town Manager. Is everything in order?

It is not on this one. The work was completed before we got the grant of location. So we have here.

Come on up.

Excuse me.

If you could have a seat and introduce yourself, that would be great.

My name is . I'm a general contractor. I'm the builder, built the house in 24 Aldridge Road. I'm asking for the plan of the board to grant the location for the underground electrical wire and the pole is the same size of the house, you know.

Okay, and are you aware that in Needham you have to get a grant of location prior to doing the work? Yes, yes. Were you aware of that before you did the work?

No, I'm sorry about that. You know, it has been maybe eight years ago, the last house I built in Anita. I didn't know it just has been changed. I know. I apologize for inconvenience.

Okay. So... there are a number of reasons why we require a grant of location prior to doing the work and one of those reasons is so that the neighbors on the abutting properties get a chance to sort of weigh in on the project and we get to to check that everything's are going to go according to plan. Did everything go according to plan, aside from the noticing? Everything is safe and

Complete? The scene is safe. And I think we would just continue on the normal course now to hear from Joanne and conduct the public hearing.

OK. Yeah. Great. Hi, Joanne. Good evening. So, do you want to tell us about this one?

Sure. It's not much more than what you've already said, but we are, Eversource is seeking a grant location to install approximately 16 feet of Conduit into Aldridge Road. And that is to provide underground service to the new home at 24 Aldridge Road. Thank you.

Thank you, Joanne. All right. So I guess I would just say once is a mistake, but let's not do that again.

Definitely not. It's got to be part of the process.

Yes. OK. Do any of my colleagues have anything to add? Any comments?

Yeah, it is required by state law. That's why we're doing this. I understand completely. And we do it because it's your stuff that's at risk when it crosses the public way as well. So this buttons it up. So thank you.

Anyone else? No. OK. All right. So don't do it again. But mistakes happen. And this is a public hearing, so I'll ask if there's anyone in the room who has a comment to offer. and is there anyone in line? Alright, then I would welcome a motion.

Madam Chair, I move that the Select Board approve and sign a petition from Eversource Energy to install approximately 16 feet of conduit in Aldridge Road. Second.

All right. All those in favor? Aye. Those opposed? Okay. The motion passes. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thanks for coming in. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Have a good evening.

See you.

Thanks, Joanne. Okay, so the next is a public hearing for an underground fuel storage at 100 Windsor Road, and I think we have some visitors with us. So come on up. Have a seat, hot seat. Introduce yourselves.

Jay Steeves, Fire Inspector, Town of Needham. Rob Tremetti, Fire Inspector, Town of Needham.

Thank you. I'm sorry, Carol. I'm sorry, the applicant is joining Okay, super. Great. Let me just get to this. Okay, so there's an application for a 1,000 gallon underground storage tank and Can you guys set the scene for us?

Well, for Town Needham, 1,000 gallons requires a license and a permit.

Yep.

throughout the state of Massachusetts, it's usually 10,000. Right now, all the requirements and setbacks that are needed for a 1,000-gallon tank underground are being followed.

So everything's in order.

So they've got their paperwork, the orders of notice.

And this is just a residential propane? Correct. So fairly standard?

It's 1,000 gallons, but it's 10 feet off the lot line, 10 feet from the house. OK. So they're common. We have a few in town.

Okay. Everything in order? Yes. Okay. And looks like Mr. McGinley is here. Hello, Mr. McGinley.

Hello. How you doing?

Well, thanks. How are you?

Good, thank you.

Good. The fire chief tells us everything is in open.

You got a promotion.

Yeah, you got a promotion. I don't know if I want that. That's a good place to be. The inspector tells us everything's in open. The inspector tells us everything is fine. Do you have any questions?

I do not. Nope.

OK. All right. Anything? It's a public hearing. Yeah. So it is a public hearing. Thank you. So is there anyone in the room who has a comment to make on this matter?

I do.

Great, come on up. I'm gonna have you sit here and if you could just introduce yourself and tell us your address and then you can make your comment. Thank you.

Michael Gillespie, 210 Stratford Road in a butter. So concern, I've been in my house for 35 years and in Needham for 40. and I just want to make sure that a couple of things that the it is in a wetlands area yes so making sure that the tank is secured

the town of Needham actually again this is only specific to the town Needham every underground tank is required to be on a pad or a slab other communities it's not other communities it's only in a wetlanded area but Needham it's everyone is required on a tank, on a sled. And it will be tied down to get eye bolts on it secured as well.

And the bigger concern is I know they'll It'll be fine when it gets installed, but it's a thousand gallons of propane tank. Wondering what precautions the town has for making sure that It's inspected every couple of years to make sure the anodes are doing their thing and making sure that it's not rusting away and that there's whether there's a report from a good inspection firm that makes sure that it's still secure because 1,000 Gallons of propane blowing up is not something the neighborhood needs.

Yeah, it doesn't sound nice. So we do the initial inspection. We go out there and make sure everything is optus enough and in the code. And there's more requirements than just A regular propane tank going in. They have to go ahead and submit the packet to the boat of selectmen that has to be signed off. The plot plan, everything does. After that, the installation takes place. On the day of the installation, we go out and make sure that they're putting the proper sand back in. They can't just put rocks and everything back on top. After that, you've got the company that they've contracted with. that is then in charge of inspecting every few years whatever their company is. It's more safer than being 1,000 gallons above ground. if you put it into perspective because there's nothing going to hit it or there's no impact issues.

Right, but at least above ground you can see if it's rusting away. and I'm not thinking the first five years. I'm thinking I may not be here in 35 years, but maybe my kids will and wanting to make sure the town knows that it's secure. going forward?

Sure. Katie, do we know what the regulations are for checking up on the propane tank?

I really would.

I mean, the license requires it to be renewed every year.

Oh, OK.

So in order for that to be renewed every year, it's inspected by the company. And the company does not fight us. Right. OK. What we issue, the license, the permit is for the storage of fuel. Okay.

So it's a yearly permit that needs to be renewed.

With the town? Yes.

Okay.

Great. Any other questions? No. Okay. Well, thanks for coming to a public hearing.

I appreciate the opportunity. Madam Chair, it was mentioned that this was in a wetland area. Is this in the Conservation Commission jurisdiction?

I don't believe so.

They needed permission to do some of the demolition in the White Lens Commission.

Probably part of the building. Permit?

And it is close to, it's in the back of the lot, so I don't know if Wetlands needs to approve it or not.

Is this gentleman the homeowner? I believe so. Probably ask him.

Mr. McGinley, was this tank arranged for by your contractor? Is this a new build home?

Yes, it is.

Was this part of your building permit? Was this part of your building permit?

I believe so.

He's the contractor. Oh, he's the contractor.

I'm not the contractor. I'm with Superior plus Propane.

Okay.

Okay.

All right. Well, I think I think that this is something that we can check because certainly we want to make sure but it does sound like this is a routine thing not only that they have and so on.

So when they say referring to wetlands, Needham's pretty much everywhere in Needham's got water. Every house we go there's a sump pump running in or being installed in. So that's why they have We're basically surrounded by water with the Charles River on pretty much all sides. So there's water everywhere. That's why they made the bylaw to put it on a pad for all tanks.

That backs up to the Boy Scout. Town Forest portion, and there's a pond 100 feet from the back of the lot.

I would note for the board, page 19 in your packet has the site plan. And it does delineate the 100 foot wetland buffer. And this is outside of that.

What's on this page? Did this go to the Conservation Commission since part of the parcel is in within 100 feet?

It's got a stormwater management plan just available here on this one little thing. So I would imagine that it did, but we can certainly check.

I don't know if the original building did, but for this fuel tank inspection, it looks like it's outside of what would trigger going to conservation. But if you want to vote it pending our checking on that, we can do that.

Could we just wait till next week, next meeting?

I think if we do it pending, that would serve. I'm trying to enlarge these seals so we can see.

Because the whole project should have gone to conservation if any of it was within.

The matter before you is the fuel tank.

That's why I'm asking if we can get confirmation.

Right. I wouldn't want to hold up the building, but I think if we voted pending the confirmation, that'll still serve. If it's not... If it's confirmed, or if it's confirmed not to have gone, then our vote won't stand. So I think it'll have the same effect. But if it is in process, then these gentlemen can move forward. So I think it's the same thing. That's what I'm saying.

I think the fuel tank is outside the 100-foot wetland buffer. So it looks like they've already delineated that. But if you want to make it contingent, that'd be fine.

I think that sounds reasonable. All right, so in that case, I'd welcome a motion.

How about that? The select will vote to approve and authorize the chair to sign a license for Osterum and propane to install 1,000 gallon underground propane Storage Tank at 106 Windsor Road, subject to That no review is needed.

Confirmation of conservation.

Confirmation that no review is needed by the conservation committee.

Very nice.

Confirmation committee or is it a confirmation? Confirmation commission. Confirmation commission.

All right. Very nice. Second. Excellent. All right. Any other discussion? OK. All those in favor? Aye. Those against? OK. The motion passes. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. McGinley. Thank you. All right.

So the next thing we're going to discuss is a presentation from the Envision Needham Center Working Group. So come on down. Welcome back, Karis. Hi, Justin. All right. So thank you for being here to present on the results. of the Envision Needham Center Working Group.

Good evening, Madam Chair and members of the Select Board. As you are all aware, I'm Justin McCullen. I am Vice Chair of the Envision Needham Working Center Group. Before we open up for questions, I'd like to briefly walk you through how we got here. A redesign of Needham Center has been a goal of the Select Board and the DBW. It's been going back over 20 years, as you probably all know. The first phase of construction began in 2016, or design, focusing on the intersections abutting the common. Phase two was planned for 2020, but was deferred first by the pandemic and then by community feedback calling for more pedestrian amenities. Envision was then established as part of a revisiting that second phase. I'd also acknowledged directly that the project did not start from a place of consensus.

In the spring of 2025, a vocal and organized segment of the community, residents and business owners, felt the process was moving too fast in a predetermined direction. and it was felt that that was correct and the select board heard the feedback and responded. In June 2025, you expanded our charge to evaluate three distinct lane configurations and stepped away from the federal grant that had required a lane direction commitment. That decision changed the trajectory of this committee, and I believe that's why we're able to stand before you tonight with something credible. Since that reset, the committee has worked for 18 months reviewing traffic studies, infrastructure assessments, and design alternatives. We have held regular public meetings, hosted an information session at Powers Hall in February, and launched a town-wide survey that drew 2,750 responses, approximately 11% of Needham's adult population. So what the community told us, that survey results were meaningful.

Of all points allocated across three alternatives, 63% went to the four lane plan and 37% went to one of the two lane plans. among residents both weighted and unweighted analysis showed a majority support for the four lane option but the survey also showed something deeper eighty percent of respondents expressed some level of concern about the project with the top worries being increased traffic, parking scarcity, and impact on businesses. And across all plan preferences, respondents shared a common vision of more greenery, outdoor gathering spaces, safer pedestrian crossings, and a more vibrant downtown destination. So where we are tonight. You have in your packet an executive summary, the full survey analysis, individual member preferences from each member of the committee, Director Lustig's memos to both us and to you directly. Our ask is straightforward.

We've provided the materials as requested, and tonight is about helping you decide on the next steps for Great Plain Ave corridor. Karras and I, unless Karras has her own comments, but we're ready for your questions.

Sure, I'll just add a few things. I know I provided both a memo to the Envision Needham Center Working Group and as well as the Select Board, I think trying to address some of the substantive issues that we're confronting when it comes to this project. But just to summarize a couple of things, that this is not a new project, not a new goal. It's been present amongst town meeting, the select board, and the Department of Public Works for over 20 years. the needs that this particular project we're addressing I think we discussed in the past the goals were when we did the the reset you know the goals were really trying to figure out what the layout was that would be that would be sort of desirable. And within the context of looking at pedestrian and vehicle safety, ADA accommodations, and drainage issues. And I just want to speak quickly to the ADA accessibility.

Thank you.

When DPW does work on an area, we are required to meet ADA. We're mandated to meet ADA regardless, right? The town is required that we are supposed to achieve it, but there's no specific mandate as to when that is achieved. But when we touch or we update infrastructure, we are required to meet ADA. We're required to put it back as an ADA compliant, even if it doesn't the infrastructure it touches is not ADA compliant. Whenever we do a repaving work, so anything that requires asphalt, we are legally required to make sure that every ramp is ADA compliant as well. Even a simple paving job, even if that sidewalk itself is not compliant, those ramps are required to be compliant. We frequently get calls from the public when we're doing this like, oh, that ramp was perfectly fine. And we have to explain that that's not actually a discretionary item. It is actually mandated.

and then the drainage which I had articulated in the the memo is undersized for this particular area and we've experienced both localized draining in that corridor and then directly adjacent to the corridor in which the runoff from the downtown ends up feeding into. I just wanted to talk. for a second about what Complete Streets is. The Select Board has a Complete Streets policy in place. That policy is fairly broad I think as far as its directive and really what it encourages us to do in every single project is consider every modality and figure out what is achievable and not achievable within that right of way given the constraints we have. So it doesn't mandate that we do a certain treatment or require us to have a certain solution. It simply requires us to consider all the options and then decide which is the option we want to move forward with.

So in my opinion, all three of the items that you have presented to you comply with everything required of our Complete Streets policy and of the state's Complete Streets program. I just There's also, I think, questions about are there smaller ad hoc projects that could be done and whether or not that would be potentially a more cost effective and I think the reality is particularly when it comes to drainage but when you disrupt a significant amount of pavement you're putting it back together one way or the other. So you can restore it to the exact same condition or the exact same layout, or you can alter that same layout. There's not a lot of cost difference between the two. So in trying to make the sidewalks ADA compliant, and making the roadway, upgrading the roadway and then also dealing with drainage issues.

There's no cheaper cost of sort of dividing us out into three separate potential projects. and you'll see that a little bit when you look at the cost options between the three different alternatives even though they're very significant different projects there's not a huge variable in cost between all three because there's such a tight right-of-way there's not a lot of You're building it from curb to curb either way. It's just what you're putting in that curb that changes. And there's some slight cost differences in the materials, but it's the construction, the disruption, that is really the largest cost difference. And then I just wanted to just indicate, I think we knew from the beginning of this project that we have a very tight corridor. The right of way goes from the front of buildings. So we're literally building up to the front stoop of these Businesses, to the front stoop of the neighboring business across the street. And it is a challenge to try to figure out how to accomplish all the goals that the town has that it wants to have in such a tight corridor.

And that's why we just tried to do our best to identify the trade-offs in each one of these alternatives in accomplishing that.

Can I ask you to talk a little bit about Marianne was here earlier, made public comment. She raised some questions that are the same ones that I have, which is how do we I think it's clear that this board has already decided that they're going with a four-lane plan. So given that decision, I personally feel it's important, well, first of all, to consider all of the options with an open mind and to understand that the Select Board's planning process is multigenerational. meaning that we are designing for today. We are listening to people today, but we're also planning for future generations. So if the tastes of future generations change,

What can be done now to order the infrastructure under the road so that above ground changes might be possible at some future? who knows when down the road. And what would that look like? And I also, I guess I also want to understand the funding connection between top side and bottom side like how does that work because i i understand that doing it all at once allows you to use money in one way and doing just a portion of it does not allow the same use. So I just want to clarify kind of what is involved there.

Yeah, we've certainly talked internally about different solutions that we could look at if the four lane is the preferred solution to allow for adaptability, you know, 20, 30 years in the future because the General infrastructure we're building. I think I indicated the current drainage pipe that we have under the road is 80 years old. And you're sort of anticipating that some of this infrastructure you put in will last for 50, 80 years. The main challenge we always have to dealing with any sort of change to the right of way is really where the underground infrastructure is and primarily the drainage. usually the easiest place to put drainages on the side of the road. It's usually the least disruptive for construction purposes. But obviously, that can present some challenges if your curb line ends up changing. or if you do bump outs or other medians that, you know, even just speed bumps themselves, right? They can, speed bumps have the ability to alter your drainage.

So we had talked about potentially putting most of the drainage infrastructure towards the center line as opposed to the edge line and working out your various pitches so that way if for some reason you were to modify the connection of the drain line that it could be moved without having to undo what's underneath. What's above ground, there's not a ton that can be done in order to reduce the cost. If you have to put in change curb and put in concrete sidewalks. That obviously has cost, but you could try to design it so that there's some flexibility in the, right now the buffer zone that we have in Needham is right along that curb line, so that's where you have your parking meters, your trees, your planters. You could do that so you don't necessarily have to have that buffer zone right up against parking. You could have some Pedestrian Space on either side of that buffer zone. So there's some treatments that you could do that would make it more flexible. And then also the

We had talked about that a little bit when it came to the two-lane plans regarding the corridor that was renovated in 2017. And we had also discussed that the majority of that work was really Again, a lot of it was some surface work or signalized work. And traffic signals do have a useful life. It's usually 25 to 30 years. So we would also be, you know, you would want to sort of maybe look at that when you're looking at when some of our Physical infrastructure currently comes to the end of its useful life and needs rehabilitation. On the funding side of things, we had anticipated using Chapter 90 for the majority of this project. the town had looked in prior years at town meeting and that was initially what we had been accumulating resources in Chapter 90 specifically for the downtown project. And so

that was accumulated over multiple years in order to try to get enough to do each phase of the project. Great Plain Ave right now being the only phase that we anticipate will be funded through the town. That particular work, chapter 90 is eligible for roads, a few public works things, but usually anecdotal to roads and sidewalks. Drainage is a critical infrastructure related to roads and sidewalks. In fact, in most of our neighboring communities, their drainage department is not under their water and sewer department. It's actually under the highway department. because it is considered sort of a critical element of that infrastructure. And when you do a full road project, the underground infrastructure that you are upgrading becomes are eligible for the same funding source. So the drainage repair itself is not an eligible use of Chapter 90 funding.

drainage repair as it connects to making modifications to the downtown would be an eligible use of chapter niner funding.

So doing the whole thing all at once means we can spend it on the drains as well. Correct. Doing just the drains means we can't.

It wouldn't be eligible for that funding source.

but we'd have to do the road anyways because we did the drains we dug up the road so of course there's no way to get

And there is a section of that area that is also eligible for, that is currently in need of repaid as well.

Go ahead. Thanks. I guess your letter, it was unsigned. Would you mind resending it? Oh, sure. Thank you, because I was confused the first time I read it. On the drainage, I'm confused because I remember, I think, three seemingly contradictory statements. In 2024, I remember you told the Finance Committee that if you expand

Keane.

pipes in the middle of town. You remember this too. You expand in the middle of town and not downstream, then you create bottlenecks downstream. And so if the goal is to expand pipes and increase the flow, you want to work your way from the source, like Charles River, inward. and then earlier this year in January I think I asked I kind of alluded to that and that the answer was well we're not necessarily expanding the pipes we're looking to put the water directly in the grounds like through rain gardens and retention basins and and things like that. But then at the public hearing, and tonight, I think you've said the goal is to expand the pipe. So I really think I would like to understand better what what is our policy about expanding drains and how are we going to go about doing this and and how is The priority of drainage in the center of town, how is that priority compared to in other places where we know there are also drainage problems?

So I'll start with your backwards, I guess. And so we've had this conversation internally quite a bit. And I think one of the struggles we have with the downtown is that you have an urbanized area that was developed before we had any modern drainage infrastructure, right? private parking lots, older public parking lots were really developed with drainage as a primary model. So when you have a short duration, high intensity event, effectively the street becomes the drain and conveys the water then downhill of wherever it is and our town center is up Uphill of the neighborhoods around Chestnut Street and Dedham Avenue. So that's one of the areas is you just have a large area of impervious surface that exists. When we've talked about it, as far as prioritization goes, we had our first high priority project, which was Broadmeadow approved at town meeting.

and we have had in our five year capital plan, you'll see the Chestnut Street parking lot is also listed as an area where we had flooding and flooding hit local businesses. And so we had an internal conversation of how high of a priority is the downtown drainage. And when we talked about a potential delay in this project and thinking what that might take, when we talked about does this need to be done next year or the year after, No, it's not our highest priority. But can it wait 10 years? And the answer to that is also no. So it's somewhere in between the two of needing to be addressed and also it's not imminent but it needs to be addressed as part of our larger program. One of the struggles we've had in having discussions about the design of a storm drain system that hasn't been designed yet is that it hasn't been designed yet.

And I think the biggest struggle, particularly for this project compared to other projects, is that the layout of the road has such a significant impact on what design choices the town would make. So for example, if we have wider sidewalks that provide more space to do more open drainage systems, then that's one method of dealing with the volume that's collected in that area. if you have more parking and roadway, you can't collect water where you have cars or parking or driving, and therefore you're gonna use a different solution in which you'd use like underground infiltration. But it's probably going to be a combination of increasing the size of the pipe, because that pipe is what you would have in a residential neighborhood, and also providing significantly more infiltration underneath the sidewalk or the road in order to capture the water in the downtown and give it the ability to infiltrate into the ground as opposed to necessarily going downstream. And I think it's a struggle for me in balancing the threat because

We had a fairly significant rain event, and it didn't jeopardize our entire system. It simply caused significant it caused individual harm to homes in certain areas, but it didn't cause a system-wide failure. So there's no systemic I'm not worried about bridges washing out or other things that you saw in other communities when they had those types of events. But again, I think it's something that we are looking to try to invest in to make sure that that doesn't become as much of an issue. I will say the interior part of the downtown, so the area that was addressed in 2017, they did increase the diameter of the pipe from 12 inches to 24 inches, but only in that one section. and the initial design we had in 2020-2022 also had the pipe being

being expanded to 24 inches and it had it I think connecting all the way to Glen Doon so there were some just outside the downtown corridor drainage work that was envisioned as part of that project. And again, once we get clarity on what the layout will be, we can really start looking then at What do we need to do as far as adding different drainage amenities in the downtown and how far down do you need to carry those drainage amenities in order for them to be successful?

And so if the pipes were already expanded in 2017 in this corridor, where are you looking to expand the pipes further?

Sorry, I apologize. So just between the intersections of Dedimav and Chestnut Street where they expanded. so the disruption from that project really just extended to the far end of those intersections and in that corridor we did the entire project from the bottom up what we haven't done is touched anything beyond that

And so on the first question I had, what is the thought about if we're expanding pipes going from the river inland versus starting in the center of town?

So I think that's certainly one of the items we're looking at doing and we have put in for Grant Funding, as well as in our capital plan to look at expanding Alderbrook, which is sort of one of those initial elements. I think one of our goals and what we're trying to find is areas for infiltration outside of in the in-between steps between getting from the more inland part of Needham to the river to try to manage the water before getting to the Charles River. So finding pocket parks, private public partnerships, areas where we can either do more underground infiltration or build vegetated swales so that water can be detained there for the five to six hours it needs in order to infiltrate as opposed to it flooding the roads and then people's homes.

Sorry, on funding. So Chapter 90 could be used for this in a certain circumstance, but it can also be used for many other things. I want to just keep in mind that there are opportunity costs. We can use Chapter 90 money to fix our Sidewalks, which are not all. I mean, I think we have like a 40 year backlog, if that's still the case. So there are opportunity costs in how we use our funds.

Agreed. One thing I will say, and I'll use a great example, we've used it to offset projects that weren't able to be funded through the town's capital plan, like Mark Tree and a portion of the Great Plain Ave, Central Ave intersection. The challenge is, because a lot of people call us about their specific sidewalk or smaller projects. The way Needham constructs roads and sidewalks is we do what we call a la carte contracts in which we are able to work directly with a contractor and not have to pay the overhead of having every single project designed. Chapter 90 really isn't structured that way. And Chapter 90 really wants every project designed. So to avoid overhead costs, that's the method we use. For larger projects like Mark Tree, where we're going to need a designer anyways it works, but we can't go through the MassDOT process for the smaller projects but we can for the larger ones.

Thanks. So can I just clarify because you had said that the infrastructure in the center maybe doesn't have to get done this year, but it does have to get done within the decade. Can't wait 10 years. And I just want to point out that It seems like from this experience, but from others that we've had, that roads take a long time to plan. it does seem like even though we the pipes may last for 10 years we can't wait for 10 years to pay attention to them because then they'll fail while we're planning the road so it just seems like you know Even though we're talking about different pieces that have different lifespans, we have to bundle them into the project, which is multiple moving pieces. And then also, it seems like what you're saying is that Part of the reason, because I know we've received a lot of requests for very specific infrastructure specs.

But it seems like you're saying that we have just arrived at this decision now of what the top side is going to look like. And even they're only part of the way, right? We know it's going to be four lanes, but we don't know what it's going to look like necessarily. And now that we've made that decision, maybe we can move forward with designing what goes on underneath, but that we don't necessarily have that information yet.

it's just that's not the stage of the process we're at so were at a high level, all the three projects that you have looked at are high level concept designs. Typically you don't get into drainage until you're past like 50% design because you need to know exactly where everything meets up to then figure out where you're placing your drainage so it's not it's not that we It's not that we don't know what we have planned. It's that we can't plan out what we're doing until we know how we're putting the road together. they're all integral pieces that are interconnected and one thing I'll just add to is in the the beta study that I think the stormwater master plan that we had that I know it predated the the 2020 or the 2023 event we had, it had identified this particular corridor as an area that had undersized drainage at that particular time.

Bell, do you have any questions?

I'm a little confused, I guess, about the timeline as well. So what you'd suggest maybe is if we're going to do the four-lane plane, we're going to do it from Chappell to Glen Doon. Do we do it in stages? Like, do we do it from Chapel to the railroad tracks and then from the other side of the garden to Glen Doon? And with the MBTA crossing coming up, you know, that crossing on Great Plain is going to have to be looked at as well so you tie it in with that as well and maybe somehow pull them together so there might be some saving and also of course you know there will be Even with a four-lane plan, there's going to be disruption to the businesses, so we want to have the least disruption as possible for those businesses. I'm confused about the timing and how it's done. I understand, you know, that the storm drains underneath, that's kind of what's driving this all and if we're doing underneath, we might as well do something on the top. I think that's how this all came about.

and I'm just confused about how the timing, what the process would be and where to actually go from here. So we're on the four line plane. Who designs that? How does it get designed? Does it come back here? Do we review it? You know, the process from here forward.

So, again, I'm probably going to have not as satisfying as an answer as I would like to be able to give because we're still in the concept phase. So what I will say is initially when this project was conceived of in in the middle of 2010s, the plan was to do five discrete phases of construction over 25 years. So every three to four years, the town would accrue enough Chapter 90 funds, and we would do the next section. and what we sort of heard, well definitely heard during that first phase was we can't do this for 30 years, right? You can't come in and disrupt the downtown every five years with major construction because even though wins on one side of town or the other side of the town. It's still disruptive to people getting into those businesses. And so initially, the phase that you have in front of you is actually two separate phases. doing between Maple and Pickering was going to be one phase and then going up to Linden and Warren was going to be a second phase.

and we decided to combine those two to limit that disruption so that way when you're doing construction on that corridor you're not coming back five years later and then doing more construction on that corridor. corridor. In terms of phasing, I think you did talk about the Quiet Zone project, which there is some overlap. One element is in regardless of the three alternatives, the sidewalks in that section do have to be wider. If you go there now, you'll see that the infrastructure that we have currently, the signals are literally in the street. We can't put them back in the street. We have to put them on the sidewalk, which means you have to widen the sidewalk to some degree in order to fit the modern signals, and then any pedestrian additional signals that are required on the sides that won't have those signals. So that area would require to be widened. and there's some cross communication between that signal and the main signal for communication purposes.

So there'll be some excavation as part of that as well. So there is some efficiency of doing sidewalk work on that section of town at the same time that you do the MBTA work. But because we don't have a design, we can't operationalize how to move forward. What I will say is I feel like the town is now better prepared to interact in a more clear way with the businesses directly that are on that corridor. to try to make sure that whatever we do helps support their needs more. So I'll give an example. When we did the initial project, the vast majority of the construction happened overnight. pay a premium to make sure that we have overnight construction, both because of the businesses and because of the use of that corridor would make having detours very Complicated. But that doesn't mean that there was no disruption to those businesses. Again, the entryway to the business abuts the town's right of way. So we're literally pouring concrete in front of somebody's business while they're trying to actively manage it.

And I think that's going to come from the town, the new economic development manager, and coordinating that construction process. learned some lessons from that initial project that we did and would certainly work to try to minimize disruption. But we understand that construction of any kind is an inherently inconvenient and, in the case of businesses, really difficult situation to manage.

Could I just add on the timing question? Because I think part of this, both with the Quiet Zone and with this project is, we've been doing the work to get to decision points we're there and then we can map out the rest of the work right so one of the decision points next on envisioning of center If the board moves forward with the project, picks a road layout, then it's designed, the board has been clear, you will go to town meeting to request design funds. So the options before us are the fall, October. or next May and we've been talking you know about the coordination between when we could get working on design for this roadway project relative to the quiet zone. The quiet zone, the kind of perfect scenario schedule that we had put together is to bid that winter of 27 start construction in spring. of 27. That is a perfect scenario.

There's a lot of things that need to fall in line, many of them outside of our control, to hit that mark. But if that is the fastest that we could do quiet zone, one of the considerations that we're grappling with is having design funds earlier would allow us to be ready with both projects if Quiet Zone does hit that perfect timeline. So there's just a lot kind of up in the air on the timing. But I think to break it down, the next step is, are we moving forward with this project with what road layout? And at what point would you like to request the design funds? Because then we can map out the work plan for how that

The other question I guess I have is, in 2017 it was done between Dedimaff and Chestert or Chapa, right? So was that not involved in this at all then?

The four-lane?

Yeah.

The vast majority of that would be maintained. So one of the goals, I think, of the four-lane was trying to preserve as much of that investment as possible. I believe there's some small modifications that would be made if the slip lane is altered in which that brick would get extended further back but that was really the only modification made We ended up going, I think, 15, 20 feet outside of each intersection in all directions so we could tie it in.

And then would it go from Dedham to Pickering, is that what I heard?

Dedham to Warren.

Dedham to Warren, okay. And I know, I don't want to get into details of planning, but I know a lot of people love that slip lane. I'm just going to slip that in there. If you'd like that one, Heidi, then yeah.

Kathy? Thank you, Madam Chair. So a couple observations and then some questions for you. So from listening care, actually I want to back up and just thank the committee for all the great work because I think that the committee has generated so much information that's helping us to make a good decision here. So I really appreciate the work of the committee. I guess the observation I have is that there's been a lot of momentum for doing a project downtown with this long-term plan. and so that's kind of been a driving force I think just always thinking we're going to do it so there's that momentum and then the other thing that I note is the funding that chapter 90 has its very specific uses. But if it is used in this project, it would enable us to cover some drainage.

used in other ways it wouldn't or if we just try to do the drainage on its own it wouldn't be covered by chapter 90 so there's sort of an opportunity here to use chapter 90 for drainage if we do it here. That said, we're at this decision point and I want to make sure that we're really stepping back and not kind of through inertia making a decision because we've kind of planned it for a long time or because it's a target of opportunity. So stepping back and just sort of asking ourselves, Given that, I mean, I think we sort of understand we're doing a four lane configuration here just based on where the board is. Assuming that we're doing a four lane, you know some people have said you know that isn't making that much change you know and yet the cost is still quite high. I think it's worth pausing and considering, do we do it at all? Is the game worth the candle at this point with the

you know relative change that we're getting 13 million dollars more or less there's a lot of money you know we know we're and I know chapter 90 is a distinct bucket of funds but the money moves around, right? It is fungible to some extent. We're going into Pollard. You look at all the overrides in all the other towns. It's a difficult economic time. So I guess I would just say I think it's worth pausing and asking, do we want to do it at all? What are the priorities? I mean, it seems that it certainly is an important drainage issue, right? You're saying the pipes are 80 years old. it's all paved there's nowhere for the water to go but down the street so I hear that but It also seems that there's sort of this inertia towards it, both between the funding and between the long-term plans. So I guess I'd like us to stop and just really make sure this is what we want to do.

given all the constraints and and the disruption to businesses etc and the relative lack of change you know at the surface level so you know just putting it out there and because obviously that that that huge storm that we had a couple Augusts ago really opened our eyes you know and what does it tell us but I mean I understand that this is this is maybe it is the priority. It's at least one of the priorities, but just to make sure.

So what is your suggestion then for the infrastructure that won't last?

I don't know. This is a question. I don't have suggestions. I have questions.

May I reply? I like that line of thought because on the funding issue, unless the state changes the regulations, If in the future we want to dig up the roads and change the configuration, we will still be able to use Chapter 90 on that. that's not going away. It's just a matter of do we spend that on something else now or do we you know spend future receipts of Chapter 90 money on that. I think Marianne and Heidi made a good point that you know In the short time between 2017 and today, our plans have changed. And there's no guarantee that they won't change again in the future. And so I think that's another good reason to kind of pause, wait a couple of years, and see what things look like then. We heard that it's not an urgent priority that has to be done today.

We don't want to defer it indefinitely, but I do think taking a couple years to just let things cool down would be beneficial.

I just want to clarify. I'm talking from a public works infrastructure maintenance perspective that it doesn't pose an imminent threat to our infrastructure. I'm not saying that it doesn't potentially cause I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. certainly wasn't a focus of, I think, generally our conversations at the back end of this project. It certainly was at the initiation of it. And as a TSC person, I know he is the one who receives the request.

So this is the hat that changes. So yes, the Transportation Safety Committee, formerly TMAC, it goes back the number of folks who have said that the crosswalks in Needham Center are not safe. There's a wide distance. There's long crossing distances. There's no refuge island. There are a lot of There are a lot of controls and countermeasures that could be done in order to make that corridor safer, including lighting, too, as well. We're not just talking about use For four months of the year, you can't see anybody in the crosswalk because of just the way the sunlight is not there in the winter. so that's one thing that is I would consider a top priority also but then you know fixing that is also something that should in the future we do something that's all ripping up depending upon the design. So is it there for who knows how long you decide or whatever that may be? And that's fine.

But we do have to keep that as a priority. So we may say we want to pause the project and wait a couple of years, which is fine. And that's the prerogative. But we need to go forward to design, because we have those orange barriers that we put in as a pilot Program. Now the pilot has lasted like three, four years now. At one point, now they're just water-filled orange barriers that are really ugly and everyone kind of sees them. But they do work because they do I would urge that if the board was to say let's pause but we need to prioritize lighting and and even putting in our RFBs, the rapid, the beacons, rapid rectangular flashing beacon and put them in as well as improve the lighting through those areas.

If I could add a few thoughts to your question, Cathy, just from a town manager perspective, giving us some thought. I would echo what Mr. Levy said about the opportunity cost for Chapter 90 and just restate that it's opportunity cost relative to other Chapter 90 projects, right? So not the Pollard, not other things on our ship. We have been planning for this and saving for it, but it does not mean that it needs to be spent on it. But the alternatives are strictly Chapter 90 eligible uses. So it's a more finite kind of set of trade-offs that you're thinking about. you know I think Will things change over the next couple of years? I think the answer is that absolutely they will. I think it's guaranteed that things will always change. So I would worry if the board

pauses for a few years thinking that there'd be some stability or a lack of change or standards that don't evolve. I think we need to kind of I guess I would observe that they are always changing. And so we always have to make decisions based on what we know now and what the requirements are now. I think for me, fully accepting that they will change the minute you make a decision. And that's just the reality of kind of how we have to make decisions. The pause, I think, for when I'm thinking about how to be planful with our staff as opposed to pivoting to something urgent, would a pause really be two years? the first phase of the construction ended in 2017 and we as a town have been working on this since then so we did the beta design 2018 to the pandemic.

We hit a pandemic and we thought this is not the time to have this project. We brought it back to the board in 22. It was asked to be revisited and so we have done that. Then it got reset as was previously described in this presentation. I think the pause question is, in my mind, not two years. I think realistically, if it's to the point where we have shovels in the ground and we're getting at the infrastructure underneath, it's much more than five years. trying to be realistic about when the board and the community would be ready to revisit this conversation. So for me, that then starts to frame it as, can we pause and still be planful? And I'm not sure that that's possible. given how long it takes to do these projects and community engagement. And my last thought will just be that there would be additional sunk costs

not a reason not to zoom out and you know I don't want inertia to carry the project but everything that we just spent on this phase largely would be sunk cost.

Madam Chair, I just want to clarify, I'm not advocating for a pause. I am just wanting to make sure that if our original thought was to make a more dramatic change, and now we're not going to make the more dramatic change,

does this still make sense one thing I'll just add the original original plan so the 20 you know 2015 sort of iteration of what the whole downtown looked like had similar in a lot of ways. I think this is an improved plan upon that. And I think specifically to the intersections that Justin referred to, So the initial plan that we had, I think still had confusion in those two areas that would have paused potential additional threats to pedestrians. And this plan sort of clarifies that. and it sort of continues to execute what was already designed for if you stand on the slip lane you'll see how that is conveyed into one lane in that one particular area and is not conveyed into two lanes because that was the original design concept. So while it sort of preserves what we currently have, part of that is because we already did a portion of this project that made those enhancements as well.

and sorry if I could just the the issue of the drainage is it primarily that the pipes are too old that they're too small and then What is it exactly?

So the issue is not just confined to the roadway. The issue is that the entire downtown has too much impervious surface and doesn't meet any of our modern drainage standards. So if any buildings were redeveloped, and many new buildings go in, they're going to have to deal with their stormwater that they deal with onsite. Right now, none of those buildings deal with their stormwater onsite. It gets shed off to the right of way because there's no adequate drainage. So the issue is not so much the age of the pipe. And the pipe of itself is not in poor condition as far as we don't have blockages or obstructions. It truly is the size of the pipe is undersized for what you would want in that urban context. and then it's certainly undersized you know we've talked I think this is sort of the size of the pipe and you can't build a pipe big enough conversation is you know We're experiencing just more frequent storms. I've talked to a few people, and I'm like, well, it won't handle a 500-year storm or a 100-year storm. And they're like, well, who cares?

I'm like, we've had four 500-year storms since I've been here. it's not as predictable the weather is just not as predictable as it was and we're seeing these events more frequently so you could not have one for 10 years or we could have one next year we don't know what those implications are and what we don't have is enough capacity that's really the primary issue and we have an area that is high that feeds into neighborhoods that are lower You add in the MBTA, which is sort of a choke point as well because you can only get so much underneath. You have to build an aqueduct or something to get to the other side of the MBTA. And then what ends up happening is you have neighborhoods that are at low points where they flood. So we, you know, I think one of the comments I heard is, you know, many of the businesses in the downtown didn't experience flooding during that event. but areas that are directly downstream and in the same watershed did experience flooding because water goes to the low point. The low point doesn't happen to be at Great Plain Ave for the most part.

The low point happens to be in abutting neighborhoods.

And if we put a bigger pipe in these areas of downtown and it's connecting to a smaller pipe?

So again, this goes back into design. So we would probably, again, design more infiltration in the areas where those connections are where we haven't made those enhancements. There are areas where we do have newer neighborhoods with larger pipe than what you have in the downtown as well.

And infiltration literally just means, because I'm not a stormwater person, it just goes into the ground instead of into the pipe?

Yeah, so it's usually large underground chambers that would then fill up with water when you have an event and then they're perforated and then that water slowly leaches out into the ground as opposed to needing to be conveyed. not that this is what this project is for but it also gives us NPDES credit and we have a lot of phosphorus we need to remove from the town and using infiltration is one of the most effective methods of getting that credit.

and then that way the water doesn't it just doesn't leave the area it goes into the ground in the downtown as though it's similar to if we had lots of grass and plantings and whatever this sort of it substitutes for that

and again we'd be looking at hydrologic models in which we may be sending water in one particular direction because that's how the pipe is pitched and when we redesign it we might send water in a different direction or in a multitude of directions based on how we pitch the pipe. So there's it's why it's so hard to have the conversation in a hypothetical because how we end up designing the right of way just has such an impact on how we design the drainage.

And I'm definitely hearing you say that it's not just pipe. It's pipe plus cultec plus infiltration of green sorts. I mean, there's lots of tools, pitch. Conveyance. There's lots of tools that we have to employ to solve the problem. Kevin, do you want to talk?

Oh, sure. This is way too tangled. First off, I just want to say We need to sort of, with a strong voice, say there is a drainage problem. Because I heard it last night at town meeting, it sort of sounds like Needham's version of climate denial. So we do have a drainage issue we have to solve. And this project is to solve that. I'm hearing it in whispers who have a whisper campaign of we don't really even need to do this. I think we really do need to do this, and I think we need to say it strongly. This is now getting tangled with, so there's Envision, there's now the Quiet Zone, there's the Chestnut Street and Lincoln Street parking lot, and there's the Highland Ave project.

I think you're going to have to do a dance, Karis, of figuring out how all these projects are going to work together. And I don't know what the lineup would be. I don't know your dance card. I don't want to use this analogy. But I don't know what your dance card is going to be, but how are you going to do this? in a weird way to sound like still a town meeting. I would refer this back to DPW and figure out everything you can because this is super complicated. Candidly, I would say I don't think the four-lane plan has enough payoff. for the cost that we're doing and for the benefit we get. I think it's going to be hard to tell store owners, like, suffer through how many years of construction and it'll look just like it did before. I don't think for the amount we're paying, it will cost a town, that it will be worth it.

But I do see real benefits in doing it. So I think we have to pursue something. And you're right about that. The infrastructure will start to fail us. Not now, but it is coming. We have to solve drainage. And we have to do Quiet Zone and the Chestnut Street parking lot. So all this is going to matter. So, like I said, it's very tangled, and I think there's a lot of components on this. So does that give you any clarity? .

Yeah, I think the only thing I will say is for us to figure out this whole layer is, I think, A, figuring out what direction we're going in and what the timeline is. And I think that that's something that I think the working group committee ended up trying to get information together so we could sort of figure out where that fits. And one thing, just because I don't want to forget, I just want to thank Avery Newton specifically. a lot of the documentation, the data, the analysis. We had sort of joked in the committee, but I think she did such a great job, people thought we paid her in order to execute the survey and all that data analytics. We did not. And she just did, I think, such a lovely job of amalgamating all the information, trying to do so in a really non-biased way, and just giving a bunch of different perspectives on that. So I just wanted to specifically talk about her since she went so far above and beyond.

I think I want to just also underline what Marianne said about designed for a future, designed to be flexible. As I look at the plans for the quiet zone, even the four lane thing, I think the mechanism is going to be within inches of moving traffic. You see it on a plan, but I want to really see what you guys see. and I don't know if we could do a four lane with the quiet zone with the new mechanism. That's just a concern I have. And then I know, Bill, you love the slip lane, but that's a horribly dangerous thing. And I'm really happy to see that go in the four lane option, because that's like a death lane.

Is it?

It's no longer a recommended treatment. Unsignalized slip lanes are no longer a recommended treatment for pedestrian safety. It's certainly terrifying to cross.

but have we had safety incidents there?

That I don't know. I can certainly talk to the police department about any specific issues, but I will just say from a MUTCD perspective, they are not are recommended unless they are fully signalized. And the benefit of a slip lane is for it not to be signalized because it moves traffic faster. And so it won't have the positive benefit that I think people enjoy from it.

Also, if you install something that's not recommended by MUTCD, it brings in other issues as well. So it is not recommended.

Could I say just something about There are questions about drainage in the center of town. I don't think it's denial. I think it's just about questions about priorities. When we got the beta report, which is incredibly long and shows all of the backlog of I shouldn't say backlog, really remediation that we have to do to improve our drainage infrastructure. It's just a question of how does this potential project compare in priority to the others. and I don't know from this conversation how doing this project would improve the drainage on Chestnut Street, for instance, where we know there's a lot of flooding. And I know we're in such early stages, we don't have that answer. So that's why I go back to the beta report, which does help to prioritize things.

I guess I'd just say thank you to the committee. I recognize that we are not having a debate. And honestly, this is a foregone conclusion, not really a discussion of your results. But it doesn't change for me the work that you've done. and the energy that everyone put in. I guess I do understand that we'll be pursuing some sort of four lane plan, whether it's doing nothing, which doesn't seem to me to be a good option, or A renovated four lane plan, which also doesn't seem to me to be a good option. Because I understand that in choosing a four lane plan, we are not choosing Safety as our top priority. We're not choosing parking as our top priority.

We're not choosing the most stormwater protection that we could afford ourselves. That's not our priority. We're not choosing pedestrians safety, you know, or pedestrian friendly even, so place making as our priority. Nor are we choosing to provide the most foot traffic to our local stores and restaurants. Nonetheless, We are making this choice, and so we will move forward together. But I do regret that we have not been able to have a true discussion or debate on that subject.

But it's a good discussion.

Well it's a discussion with a foregone conclusion. one that's already been stated. And I think that it should have waited and been a true discussion. So anyway, I do appreciate. Does anyone have any further questions? I don't know that I've heard a consensus on how we move forward, actually.

Could I suggest that we put this during our goals discussion this summer? Because I think the question is, do we continue now with a plan? Do we do it later?

I'm concerned about the idea of a pause because I think there have been so many aspersions cast on our intentions here and I feel like it's one thing if we say we're not pursuing this for 20 years. which is, I think, not realistic. But if we say we're not pursuing it for two years or even six months, I think people are just going to say, you said to me that you wanted to make a decision because you were concerned that people were thinking that we were working around stuff they needed this needed to be put to bed and I don't feel like a six month or two year or even a five year pause really does anything to resolve that problem it also brings up I think a lot of like infrastructure issues that are going to come up and then timing and funding and just like getting tied up in all the road projects. So I guess I do feel like we need to discuss what we're going to do.

I worry about postponing it because our summer thing seems like, well it's not scheduled yet, but it seems like it's going to be a little ways off. I'm concerned that people are going to insinuate whatever they choose instead of just hearing that there are still decisions to be made

Yeah, I think I would. I get Karis, you need an action plan. We have to swing at the ball somehow. and I think it's honestly this project so politically toxic that I think if we pause it for more thoughtful consideration that would be misinterpreted as just like what the hell. I think we just say, it's four lane, go with that, make it future-proofed, and make it smart and flexible underground. and figure out how it's going to work and knit with the other projects we're doing.

I don't know if that's enough instruction. I can do no better.

I mean, fair. Cathy, did you have a suggestion? Madam Chair, yeah. I'm not necessarily in favor of a pause. I just want to make sure that we're really stepping way back. and making a fully informed decision and considering all the options, including a do nothing. I'm not in favor of a do nothing or against. I just want to make sure that we're really considering it, but then I think We need to get this whole Envision thing in our rear view very badly. So I would advocate not pausing, but just making a decision. a clear decision but I guess you know I have heard you know this this talk about the fact that the four lane does not represent a huge change and yet it costs nearly as much so I think that's a logical thing to inquire into. And it may be because the drainage and the pedestrian and everything justifies it. I'm not saying it doesn't.

I just want to make sure we pose the question in such a way that we feel comfortable that we've made A good decision, knowing everything, not from momentum, not because, you know, we've thought about this for 20 years, not because this is a way to use Chapter 90 money, but that this is our priority right now and that it does make sense. Kate, making a decision and moving on. I think Envision, we need to get it behind us.

I'm curious if you can tell us, and I know you had something you wanted to say, but I'm just... What new information are we going to get that is going to help us make this decision? What is pausing going to get us except grief? For real.

Could I just make a suggestion for how the board maybe can think about it or how I'm trying to peel the onion of the decision making? if the first question is is there no project or a project I think my question back is is there any additional information that you all need to help you think through that if the decision then is there is a project and what does it look like I defer to you if you're ready to vote that or not. The decision about when we go for design funds, I'd actually ask that Karras and I have more time to just think through that but I don't think your vote is contingent on that we just again we had town meeting that concluded last night that made a lot of decisions that we're going to need to implement you're making a big decision on a project we're going to need to implement so I'm comfortable if you want to vote on the project tonight and say, yes, move forward to design to do that.

But I guess I just want to then be able to come back to you with a coordinated approach, having zoomed out on all of the projects that can follow a vote.

Well, I think, I mean, it would be my preference not to vote it tonight, to go at least until our next meeting so that we can turn over all this information and sort of ponder these questions. Bill, did you have something?

I think though we move forward with a four-lane plan, if that's the consensus, that we probably want to put the funding in for the October special town meeting. I don't think we want to wait until next May because I think we want to get it going as soon as possible. I think I heard that because it helps with the design and everything.

But that's not something that we have to decide tonight.

No, I'm not saying tonight. I'm not saying tonight. But I don't think we can wait till the summer session to do that. I think we've heard so much tonight and the last few nights our brains are going to explode. I think we should make a decision sooner rather than later is just what I'm saying. Like Kathy, are we in or are we out?

yeah justin just quickly madam chair um just as you know just to kind of reiterate a point but i don't think i made it during the first time i said it um i have told countless um residents that have come in front of the TSC that these crossings will be fixed with the downtown improvement. So as you ponder that and put this into your calculus for that decision that Katie's saying yes or no, if it is no, the priority needs to be there to go forward with that because I need to be able to give these answers back because if that's not happening, then we need to have a plan to do that. just because there have been so many people and it's just so much easier to say and we've pushed some things off and said no these crosswalks will be dealt with and incorporated as part of the plan so you know these are these are high priority crossings so.

I agree.

I guess, Madam Chair, it would just help me if somebody would just make the strong case for why we need it. You know what I mean? If it's for Lane. You know what I mean? Under what we're now talking about. Just make the strong case. Why this? Why now? And it doesn't have to be like right here. Maybe it's a memo or something, but just I feel like this is different. We're coming to a different place than probably what people thought it was going to be two years ago. So just a strong argument. Why? Why do this for $13 million versus, well, do nothing?

But part of the doing is the under the road work. Right, of course. That is part of the doing. So if we have to do the under the road work,

But I guess I'm still not, I'd like to see that sort of clearly delineated why this is the priority, why this, why now, versus something else.

I mean to vet that out fully. I mean you said you want this in the rearview mirror as fast as possible. But when we do a project, it's now in our windshield. And we are now looking at it. And we're doing it.

I mean the decision.

No, no. But the decision is something we have to live with. Because when this is in construction, This will be like son of town common, okay? And everyone will be very upset about it for the length of the project and how the impact it has on the businesses. And so it better be worth doing.

Well, exactly. And that's right now. Maybe let me put this differently. Right now, if somebody asks me, why do we have to spend $13 million on this project, I can't give a good answer. I don't know. So somebody has to tell me. because it's not into like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

I can tell you what benefits I would see in a different plan. Right, but that's not what we're talking about. Well, I'm not necessarily even voting for this plan.

I know you're not, but I think we have three. I think we have a majority. We do. We do. So I think to spend $13 million, yes, it's Chapter 90. It's only exchangeable with other Chapter 90. I want to be convinced so that I can convince other people that this is worth it.

Agreed. I can't offer that to you, but I hope that someone can.

Well, no, I'm not expecting you to. I think we attempted to do that tonight in the materials in the presentation, but what I'm hearing is that you'd like it more clear, more direct. And I certainly can bring that back to your next meeting. That's how I like it.

But in the end, it will really be town meeting, right? because won't we bring them a number or are we just going to use the Chapter 90 funds?

Well, we set the plan.

Right.

And then we asked, we told them that we would bring the funding request to them.

Right. So would they say no to the funding request?

Well, yeah, but there's so much planning that goes on between now and then. This has to come from us with conviction.

I understand that. I understand that.

And if we can't work up the conviction, then we shouldn't bring it to town.

But if we work up the conviction, they could still say no. Right?

Certainly.

Yes, it's up to Tom.

We are presenting a plan to Tom. Right. It'll be whichever one we get to that we have ready to go. and Karis Meeks. They'll be perfect.

All right. So what I'm hearing is we need a little more time and a good deal more thought to move forward on this in any direction.

It may be a nice, clear, persuasive memo or something. Why spend these $13 million on this?

And just go back to Kevin's point. I'm hearing the same thing, that we need to show that the underground infrastructure needs to be done. if that is the case and why we don't want to put it off for 10 years, whatever. And part of it then is get, whether it's redesigned a lot or a little, the top is going to, it will change a little bit, the above ground, even with the four lane.

Yeah, but I think that's the point, Bill, is that you could theoretically, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think you could theoretically not change a lot, still do the pipes, and not spend at least as much. Is that true? No. I don't think that as much as... I think that's the... Is there no benefit to not doing any topside work?

I mean, the curb is part of a drainage infrastructure. So when you are modifying... When you're modifying the network, and to be frank, the sidewalk is a place you can put infiltration. So if you want to maximize what you're able to do in a particular area, you're talking about ripping up a lot of roadway, sidewalk, and other areas, reconfiguring it with the existing sidewalk by modifying it or not. it's going to be disruptive and sometimes it's kind of like investing in an old building versus building a new one, right? Sometimes there's not like a huge price difference between the two because sometimes it's cheaper to tear the building down and build a new one. It sort of has the same, when you're trying to fit in all the pieces that you currently have and make the most minimal, it's going to feel like the most minimal disruption, but it will take longer. It's more complicated and not necessarily as cost effective. So we haven't run the scenario if we were to do simply a drainage project.

And in fact, one of the conversations I've had a few times with the TSC is about doing some of their bump outs and other amenities. because it impacts the drainage. There's an integral relationship between the sidewalk and the drainage system that they're going to disrupt and when you touch the sidewalk you then have to make it ADA compliant and because the sidewalks are relatively small you have to fit the whole puzzle together. So it's a lot easier to deal with as an interrelated project than it is in its discrete components.

I guess then that it's not clear to me what the difference is between not doing anything if the drainage has to be done an hour later.

I'm saying not do anything.

And not do anything.

because the drainage you know it sounds like the drainage is a little bit bushy when it has to be done and it's possible that there are other areas of town that are higher priority in terms of drainage That's kind of what I meant earlier with the comment about the momentum, right? Is that it always, if there was an assumption going back, when did this redoing the downtown project kick off, 2010 or? Yeah, around then. OK. So there's an assumption going back to 2010 that we're going to redo the downtown and that that's going to be when we do the drainage. And we're going to get to use Chapter 90 funds to accomplish both. then that becomes kind of baked into all of our planning and we just assume that we're going to do that and then you know meanwhile we have this huge storm there's all these other things like it may be that this is absolutely the right thing to do I just need someone to convince me That's all. You know, because I think a lot of people are not convinced.

I want to be able to go out and evangelize and say we have to do this and here's why. I am not actually ready to do that because I don't have that ammunition. I don't have that argument. and maybe it's not maybe there's another priority I don't know with the drainage or whatever I know I'm being a pain but I just think it's 13 million dollars and I don't want this kind of inertia to drive us towards a major decision.

So I'm taking the homework. We'll work on a memo, get it to your next meeting, put this on the agenda. And I guess I would articulate I think it's a better distillation of what you've heard in bits and pieces. There won't be new information at this point. I think it's all out there, but it's trying to distill it and make it understandable where all the pieces intersect.

understanding the criticality of the timing.

Just one question for clarification purposes. Is it the infrastructure demands that you're looking for more clarification on, or is it that there's what's the motivating factor kind of clarification that we're looking for?

What's the urgency? Like infrastructure?

I wouldn't think that it would be up to you to give the motivating factor, just the infrastructure needs. I was just asking if you're still looking for clarity on the infrastructure needs. and I appreciate that because I think that's the issue that I have with this notion that you want to be convinced which I totally get I mean and frankly I agree with I would like to be convinced too but I don't think it's up to Karis or the committee to convince us which is the right thing to do. Their job is to give us the details on what needs to be replaced and when, and then we make the prioritization.

I mean, I personally don't know what is, maybe it is Needham Center that is the highest priority for drainage.

That priority they can tell us, but then we have to decide what we're going to spend money on. and make the inconvenience of doing.

But why is this a good thing to do? Why is this the highest, best use of this $13 million of Chapter 90 funds?

I guess I would just reflect in the moment this idea of what were the goals of this project and how do you analyze the benefits and the trade-offs. It becomes more challenging if you look at each piece in isolation. Is this our top drainage priority? Is this our top pedestrian safety priority? Is this our top economic development or place making priority? My sense is that over the years, the boards each time was looking at this in the compounding effect. This one project can do things on all of those fronts. Even if individual pieces, it's not the number one thing. So I think that is one of the challenges we've had in articulating the tradeoffs. That's a good argument. And that all of those things are linked.

that's a good argument if this is one way to just hit a whole bunch of things and it's a good way to fund it because of this or whatever it's just I mean I just think We have to be convinced ourselves to spend $13 million. You know?

I'm glad you said that because I actually don't think of it that way. We have discrete problems. We have stormwater problems, flooding problems. We have safety problems, traffic safety. We have mobility challenges, sidewalks. And I think of those individually. just a preference. I'd rather spend $13 million on the highest, you know, collectively on several projects that resolve the highest need on stormwater and sidewalks and safety improvements rather than a single project that maybe does each of them to a middling degree.

I guess the only thing I would observe is again, and I'm no expert on this, but maybe due to the nature of Chapter 90, the type of projects that it funds, this is a good opportunity to hit a bunch of those things. Right, because you'd normally, if I understood you, Chapter 90 doesn't normally fund just drainage. It funds kind of a road project. It doesn't fund road projects that aren't designed. We have to design it. So it may be that this is just that that opportunity to hit all those things is the argument i just need it clearly articulated to me okay so we'll table this and return to it in our next meeting

Thank you very much. All right. Next, we're going to hear about weights and measures and our intergovernmental agreement and fee schedule with Liz and Jim. Hi, Jim. Welcome. Lowe. Hi.

We will try to keep this quick for you. So tonight we will be discussing two related items concerning the town's weights and measures program. renewal of the Norfolk County IMA for fiscal 27 through 29 and a proposed phased update to the town's weights and measures fee schedule. So just briefly for public knowledge, Weights and Measures is a consumer protection program required under state law. These inspections ensure that residents are receiving the quantity and pricing accuracy they are being charged for by businesses. Examples include grocery store scales, deli scales, fuel pumps, and other commercial measuring devices. The purpose is fairness and accuracy in commercial transactions, both for consumers and businesses. Needham currently participates in an IMA with Norfolk County for weights and measures. Under this arrangement, Norfolk County provides the specialized staffing and inspections, maintains records, and performs the majority of the regulatory and compliance work.

The building department handles the local administration, including billing and fee collection. Needham is currently one of six communities participating in this IMA alongside Canton, Dedham, Franklin, Westwood, and Rentham. Historically, which you would know better than I, the town moved toward this regional model after the state stopped doing it because weights and measures is a fairly specialized area of inspectional services. So hiring and retaining a qualified person Personnel, hiring and retaining qualified personnel independently can be difficult and expensive for municipalities. The regional agreement allows communities to share expertise and costs while ensuring compliance with state standards. The current weights and measures fee schedule in Needham has not been updated since 1991. Over the last 35 years, service costs, operational costs and comparable municipal fee structures have all changed significantly. As part of this review, we worked with Norfolk County to evaluate both current service costs and regional comparisons.

So included in your packet is a spreadsheet that compares current fees across communities, including both IMA and non-IMA municipalities, where information was available. Norfolk County's long-term goal is for the participating communities to generally align with the recommended structure over time, although each municipality is on a different timeline depending on their own renewals and board approvals. Canton and Franklin have already moved to the Norfolk County recommended fee schedule and the proposal before you tonight would gradually bring Needham into alignment over the next three years. You'll also notice that some categories are remaining unchanged. That is primarily because Needham has not issued permits for some of these device types in many years. Examples include milk jars, liquid grease measuring devices, capacity measures for vehicle tanks, measurements of leather. These categories were more common decades ago in certain agricultural or industrial operations, but modern business practices and packaging standards have largely eliminated their use locally, so we've kept those stagnant.

Also in your packet is a spreadsheet that shows the proposed three-year phased implementation from fiscal 27 through 29 along with the anticipated revenue changes over that period. So currently annual weights and measures invoicing is approximately $3,700. Under the proposed implementation by fiscal 29, it would be around $9,300. Even at full implementation, however, the program would not fully offset the approximately $12,000 annual IMA cost to the town. I want to emphasize that the intent is not full cost recovery. The program itself serves as an important public protection function and the IMA provides significant value to the town by giving us access to specialized expertise in regulatory services. We are recommending a phased implementation specifically because the impact varies significantly depending on the type of business and the number of devices involved. So for example, a small food establishment with perhaps one scale may increase from approximately a $5 permit fee annually to $25 annually.

a small grocery store with multiple scales and scale types might see an increase from approximately $90 annually to $450 annually. So it's really dependent. Some increases might appear modest, others more substantial, which is why we felt it was important to spread the adjustment over three years rather than implementing it all at once. businesses will be notified of the proposed changes and the reasoning behind them. So in summary, we are recommending the renewal of the Norfolk County IMA for fiscal 27 through 29, as well as adoption of the recommended fee schedule through a phased three year implementation approach.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I think the Norfolk County Agreement makes a lot of sense. It seems to have worked very well in the past three years. So let's renew it. I guess on the fee schedule. It just seems to me that $12,000 is such a small amount of money in terms of the dollars that we usually talk about. And yes, we should absolutely update our fee schedule. I worry that for your example, the small scale, moving from $5 to $25 over three years, I don't think we need to do that because I don't want it to appear that we're nickeling and diming individual businesses. I think we don't need to do it because of $12,000. We could absorb that if we really needed to. I would say we could.

We could spread out that the rate increases over a longer period of time for those particular ones that have a lot of current permits. For the ones that don't have any permits currently, which are many, We could probably accelerate that and just move that up to the timeline that you're proposing in 2029. I don't want to... It's particularly for the ones that are highly used, that businesses have relied on that stability since 1991. I would like to... be a little bit more gradual with those increases?

I will say that Norfolk County did not suggest the three-year implementation. They suggested just implementing it outright, and we came back with the three-year. I'm not sure and I could absolutely ask them if they'd be interested in doing a different structure because that seems like an awful lot more work trying to figure out like by permit number spreading it out more years. So I'm not sure if they'd be interested.

Well, so alternatively, so you did it three years because three years is the duration of the contract. Correct. So there's no... We don't have to hit the high value that's comparable to other towns. I guess maybe that's my point. We have been much below other towns. And yes, we should raise it. But I don't know that we need to raise it to meet the level of other towns within three years.

Is everyone in the program advancing at the same rate? I mean, do we all pay the same amount? The same contracted amount? Is the same suggested increase?

Or is the schedule just for us? This schedule is just for us. Two other communities have adopted the same amounts out of the six, and they're trying to get all of them on board.

Are the payments done? Does the individual store pay the town? or do they pay that? Yes, the building department does the invoicing.

So the building department gets a monthly invoice from the work that was completed that prior month. We invoice directly to the consumer of the business and then we get paid and But as far as the billing end of it, that also is part of the cost of the process. That's not included in these numbers. there are people doing a lot of paperwork regarding these inspections that the county does.

25 years, we're at a price increase. 35. 35, I'm sorry. Holy cats, that's a lot. It's interesting the term, Avoir Du Bois. Du Bois.

Yes.

OK. I had to look that up.

That's from Great Britain. Pounds and ounces, where everyone else is metric.

Thank you.

Bill, any thoughts?

Does the RTS actually get measured as well, their scale? It gets tested without a fee, of course. Okay, by them? Yes. Not, yeah. And the other is... It would increase to nine, and you say the cost for us is 12. Is the cost for us 12 already? Yes. So we're at three, and we're doing the 12, and now we go from nine and do the 12.

Yes, the first three-year contract that we're currently in was $12,000, and they are not asking for more. They're asking for another 12.

I think these are very reasonable increases after 35 years. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think it is nice that we are, I don't even think we need to do it over the three years, I think we are doing it so we are giving the businesses some heads up and a break when we do it over the three years instead of just doing it one year at a time so I would be in favor of this proposal

Yeah, I guess I worry. I mean, I appreciate your thought. But I worry that when we take on We have so many costs that we cannot control and that are not covered by fees and so on. and this is how every year when we go and we present our balanced budget it's i mean it's only 15 000 here 12 000 here but i think that there are actually quite a few of these sort of things that happen you know Our insurance costs keep going up and everything. And I just feel like while nobody likes the price increase and nobody likes imposing a price increase, 35 years with no price increase, is a pretty awesome 35 years. So I'm not sure that we should take on the burden because we don't want to gradually increase the price to still below cost.

So I would be in favor of the schedule as suggested. Yeah, I think it makes sense.

I mean, I think we're facing it in over three years. I think that it makes us comparable, you know, to what they're moving towards this standard, so we will be competitive to other towns. And yeah, I would agree we don't necessarily have to heavily subsidize all these services. So I think this makes sense. Well thought out.

Madam Chair, I move that the Select Board adopt the Intergovernmental Unit Agreement for services of a certified sealer of weights and measures between the County of Norfolk and the Town of Needham for an additional three-year term. Second.

um okay uh great there's a second motion we'll i guess we'll do them separately um so on the motion uh all in favor aye And those opposed? Okay, so that motion passes.

Madam Chair, I would move to approve incremental increases to the weights and measures fee schedule over the next two years as presented. Second.

Okay. All those in favor? Aye. Those against? Nay. Okay. So the motion passes. Thank you both. So time for the town manager's report.

First, we have the quiet zone update, which is just to bring back to the board that the cooperation agreement with the MBTA that we've discussed at your last couple of meetings has been returned to the town signed. So I am just coming back to ask for your authorization to allow me to countersign that and make it official. So happy to answer any questions.

Well, just congratulations. This is such a huge achievement. I recall that we have been talking about this for many years, longer than I have been on the board. And it has been a very difficult thing to get this ball rolling. And you not only got the ball rolling, I don't know I don't have a good sports analogy but congratulations it's a big achievement so thank you for making that happen yeah no just thank you it's wonderful it's great news

Do you need a motion to authorize?

Yes, please.

So move that we authorize the town manager to sign the memorandum, the cooperation agreement, excuse me, with the MBTA.

Second. excellent all right all those in favor aye those opposed motion passes thank you Katie

For town manager's report, I will just say a big thank you to we are all delirious right now because The meeting has ended, but the moderator shared his thanks last night. But there's such a huge team, logistics support, the operational support. months and months and months of policy work and planning work and budget work from volunteer, board and community members, from staff. and town meeting members themselves. So I feel like we kind of conclude the night and just immediately go on to the next thing. But that is our legislative session for the year and everything lines up to get to it. So just thank you to everyone who was involved in that. And I had no brainpower to think of anything else for the chat manager's report today.

I just want to go on record as saying, when I predicted four nights, it did not occur to me that the Monterey would keep us until 1230.

It was four nights. Essentially, it was four nights, yeah.

That morning.

Yeah. That was a trip. Can I say that our deputy town manager always reminds me that the 21 days within our charter where town meeting actions are still pending appeal, it starts on the day. So we conclude it after midnight. So it is off of today.

Anything else from you? No. Okay, so committee reports, anyone?

Bill?

Good. Josh?

No.

Excuse me, Kevin.

Yes. Memorial Park trustees, we voted for our first or second votes for the July 3 lights. Poet Laureate Search Continues. So anyone here who's a poet? It's a great opportunity. It's a lot of fun. And then I have an extensive Envision Needham update if you want it. Very funny.

No, you didn't mean it. Okay, Kathy? I'll just note that a bunch of us, Kathy and Katie and Bill, attended the groundbreaking at 100 West. the other day and it was really really nice very fancy and just a really nice new start for the life of that site so very exciting kind of to see what what will happen there. All right. I guess. Oh, no, we do. Thank you.

No, I move the consent agenda.

And appointments.

And appointments.

Super.

Second.

Any discussion? All right. All those in favor? Aye. Good catch. Thank you. All right. Then I guess I'd welcome a motion to adjourn.

I move to adjourn.

All those in favor? Aye. All right. Good night.