Planning Board - Planning Board Meeting

We're all set with the live streaming and the recording, so we should be able to start on time at 6.30.

Very good. Thank you, Swati. Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the October 7th, 2025 meeting of the Cambridge planning board. My name is Mary Flynn and I am the chair. Pursuant to chapter two of the acts of 2023, adopted by the Massachusetts general court and approved by the governor, the city is authorized to use remote participation at meetings of the Cambridge planning board. All board members, applicants, and members of the public will state their name before speaking. All votes will be taken by roll call. Members of the public will be kept on mute until it is time for public comment. I will give instructions for public comment at that time. And you can also find instructions on the city's webpage for remote planning board meetings. This meeting is being video and audio recorded and is being streamed live on the City of Cambridge online meeting portal and on cable television channel 22 within Cambridge. There will also be a transcript of the proceedings. I'll start by asking staff to take board member attendance and verify that all members are audible. For that, I'm gonna turn to Jeff.

Thank you. This is Jeff Roberts from Community Development. H. Theodore Cohen, are you present and is the meeting visible and audible to you? Present, visible, and audible. Thank you, Ted. Mary Leydecker, are you present and is the meeting visible and audible to you?

Visible and audible.

Thank you, Mary. Diego Macias, are you present and is the meeting visible and audible to you? Present, visible, and audible. Thank you, Diego. Thompson Avich, are you present and is the meeting visible and audible to you? Tom is absent. Ashley Tan, are you present? Is the meeting visible and audible to you?

Present, visible, and audible.

Thank you, Ashley. Carolyn Zern, are you present? Is the meeting visible and audible to you?

Present, visible, and audible.

Thank you, Carolyn. Associate members, Dan Anderson, are you present? Is the meeting visible and audible to you?

Hi, Jeff, I'm here and can see and hear you.

Thank you, Dan. And Joy Jackson, are you present? Is the meeting visible and audible to you? Joy is absent. Mary Flynn, can you confirm that you're present and the meeting is visible and audible to you?

Yes, I am here and the meeting is visible and audible.

So thank you, Mary. That means we have six planning board members present plus one associate member present.

Very good. Thank you all. The first item tonight is an update from the Community Development Department. For that, we're going to go right back to Jeff. And Jeff, if you'd also introduce any staff who are here with you this evening.

Thank you, Mary. I will do that. So I'm Jeff Roberts, the Director of Zoning and Development. Much of my team is here tonight, including Swathi Joseph, Evans Petrini, and Becca Mapuri. We will be here for various aspects of this case tonight. We also have from the Urban Design team and Community Planning and Design, Eric Thorgoldsen. um also with cdd and from our housing department we have cassie arneau and i also see janet haynes i believe is with us um so that is city staff just turning uh briefly to the schedule it is spooky season at the planning board. The calendar is really not any different than it was at the last meeting when I gave you an update. We have one item of business tonight, which we'll be getting right to. We don't have a meeting scheduled next week, October 14th. We do have a meeting on October 21st where we'll be having public hearings on the Massachusetts Avenue zoning petition and Cambridge Street zoning petition, two major rezoning efforts that we've been working on for some time, and the board has heard a bit about those in the past. We're at the public hearing stage for those. And October 28th at the Planning Board, we have a continued hearing on a proposed amendment to the infill development concept plan in the MXD zoning district. That will be another joint hearing with the Cambridge Redevelopment Authority Board. We may have some other general business items slotted in. So it'll be a couple of busy weeks there in late August. We won't have meetings on November 4th because of Election Day or on November 11th because of the Veterans Day holiday. So there'll be a little bit of a break after October. And we don't have anything yet scheduled for November, but I anticipate we'll have some things filling in the calendar as we go along. So I guess there are not many updates at this point from Ordinance Committee. There was a hearing today on the Bacall zoning petition, which the Board heard last week regarding open space districts. The Ordinance Committee forwarded an unfavorable recommendation on that petition. So that will be going back to City Council. They did receive the Planning Board's report on that. And we haven't quite nailed down hearing dates for the Mass Ave and Cambridge Street zoning petitions, but we expect those will be set up fairly soon. So for those of you who are members of the audience who are interested in those hearing dates, they should be coming up. That's it. I'll turn it over to the chair unless there's any questions.

Thanks, Jeff. Do board members have any questions about the upcoming Agenda items? No. Okay. As Jeff said, it's pretty much what we heard last week. And we will move on to our first agenda item, which is an advisory design consultation of case AHO number nine, an affordable housing overlay project proposed by CCHRE 2072 Mass Ave LLC and CCHRE 2072 Mass Ave tenant LLC, to construct a new 12-story building to create 73 affordable rental units and amenities and 44 long-term and one short-term bicycle parking spaces with a gross floor area of 91,700 square feet at 2072 Massachusetts Avenue. We will begin this evening by having CDD staff explain why this is before us. Then we'll have a presentation from the developer followed by a public comment. And then the board will ask questions and discuss the proposed design. So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Becca, who's going to summarize why this is before us.

Thank you. My name is Becca Maputi. I'm associate zoning planner with the zoning development division within CDD. And this is the first of two required planning board advisory consultation sessions for this affordable housing overlay project. And under the AHO, an alternative is created with a set of developments that apply for as of right housing developments in which all units are made permanently affordable. So the purpose of this process is not for the planning board to grant or deny a permit, but to provide advisory comments on the design and its overall conformance with a city's urban design objectives and guideline. Both CDD and Department of Public Works have submitted staff memos highlighting and discussing zoning compliance and the city's urban design objectives and guidelines. SO THE PLANNING BOARD AFTER TONIGHT WILL ISSUE AN INITIAL REPORT ON THE PROPOSAL AND THE APPLICANT WILL THEN RETURN FOR A SECOND ADVISORY DESIGN REVIEW SESSION WITH AN UPDATED DESIGN AND ALSO RESPONSE TO ALL THE COMMENTS THAT WILL BE MADE TONIGHT AND THAT HAVE BEEN MADE TOWARD THIS PROCESS SINCE THE APPLICATION HAS BEEN SUBMITTED.

Thank you. So the presenter, excuse me, presenter this evening is Sean Hope. Sean, you'll have up to 30 minutes for your presentation and we hope you'll please be as concise as possible. And if you would begin by introducing your project team. Ready?

Go. Thank you. We will work through this quickly so we can make sure we have time for lots of comments. Can we pull up the presentation? Thank you. All right. Good evening, Madam Chair, members of the Planning Board. For the record, my name is Sean Hope. I am a principal at Hope Real Estate Enterprises. We're here tonight on behalf of the development team to receive comments and an advisory design consultation. We're excited. We've been working on this really for several years now. And so we're excited to be in front of the board to discuss the design. Next page. So quick agenda we're going to I'm going to quickly go through some team introductions, I will give a development summary and site analysis. And then we'll turn to the project goals and the architects will really walk through those to to compare the project goals with how we've designed the building and ultimately show the design next slide please. Okay, so for the development team, we have Jason core he's the principal of capstone communities llc. With Capstone, we have William Kennelly, Vice President of Operations. We also have myself as part of the development team. Then for the design team, we have Principal Jason Forney of Bruner-Cott Architects. For the associates, we have Greg Russell, Jackie Minoni, and Austin Gallen-Kenney. As our consultant for Mass Timber, we have Simon Mance of Corb Architecture. Corb Architecture is a consultant, no relation to developer Jason Corb, just coincidental. Next slide, please. And just to give the planning board a little bit of context, this is a project that's on the avenue closer to Porter Square. This is at 1791 Mass Ave., also known as Frost Terrace. So this was a project that was developed by Jason and myself through our companies. And this was a unique site. This was a land assemblage of three different parcels. And the project on the left was an existing mansard house that kind of stuck up on the avenue. We picked the house up, brought it forward and did a modern addition to that building. There were a total of 40 apartment homes on that site. We went through the four to be comprehensive permit projects. And this was also done, designed by Bruner-Cott. So between this project, the Lunda Art Center, and then also 2072, Bruner-Cott has really had a strong impact on the design and redevelopment of the avenue. This project also won a preservation award for the preservation of the historic house you can see in the foreground. Next slide, please. So the community engagement. So there was a series of five different meetings. The first one was in October, 2024. That was the official first AHL meeting. We did a subsequent meeting later in October of 2024. That first meeting was in-person and virtual. We had some technical issues with the virtual portion. So we did a second first AHL meeting. In May, 2025, we had our second AHL meeting. And this was really where we unveiled the design and got feedback off that. We met with a community group in June of 2025, and that was the Porter Square Neighborhood Association, who holds their meetings at Lesley University in one of their classrooms. And then most recently, we had a meeting with the Director Butters, which are the Russell Apartments. We met in their lobby. We were able to walk outside to look at some of their experiences. But overall, there were five meetings. Two of them were the aid show, on required meetings. And as I said previously, although this was the start of the community outreach, this site was before the Planning Board and before the Zoning Board several years back prior to the AHO. And in many ways, the AHO was developed as a result of that first experience trying to permit a building. So we're excited to now be back in front of the Planning Board with the AHO legislation in place. Next slide.

Okay.

Yep, and so this is a development summary. So this is, the picture is a rendering looking at the building from the corner of Mass Avenue, Walden Street. The building comprises of 12 stories. 100% of the apartments will be affordable. 73 affordable apartment homes in perpetuity. 12 of the homes will be at 30% of the AMI area median income. The remainder will be at or below 60%. 71% will be family two and three bedrooms. The project will receive passive house certification as of note 600 square feet of residential amenity will be located on the 12th floor, and you can kind of see it there with some of the greenery we feel like is a nice feature of the building. An outdoor roof garden, as I mentioned, and then the project will be serviced by 44 long term bike parking spaces next slide please. And this is just a site map it's hard to read, but I think the punch line is it looks at you can see in yellow the numerous bus stops along Mass Ave and there's actually a bus stop directly in front of the parcel. But as you go further out this map looks at quarter mile and a half mile radius, and so, if you look at all the. yellow insignia, those are all bus stops, and you can also see two major transit stations right outside a quarter mile. So I think the story is this site is well serviced by transit. You can also see in green some of the open space parks and recreation areas that are within the quarter mile and half mile radius. And on the right, then you see the site highlighted in black. Next up. Slide, excuse me. So this is a site map. Just quickly go to the zoning. The site is located in the BA2 zoning district. And this is actually a portion of the lot at the rear is in the C1. So it's a split lot. But more importantly, on the right hand side in red shows that this is a corridor site and under the affordable housing overlay. quarter sites are allowed for greater densities and heights in this site would actually be allowed to go up to 13 stories were proposing 12 but that those are just two images of the applicable based on the overlay zoning next slide please. And this is just looking at the adjacent uses. So if you're looking on the right, we have the Russell Apartments, and that is a residential building. Then you have Walden and Mass Ave. And then across the street, you have a host of retail one-story buildings. And then across Mass Ave, there is the Henderson Carriage Building. And I think that is particular in some contexts, which Jason will walk through shortly. Next slide. And okay, I will now turn it over to Jason Forney.

Okay, thanks, Sean. For the record, my name is Jason Forney, principal with Brunercott Architects in Boston. Excited to be with you tonight and we look forward to receiving your feedback. Really, this site, this is a good image because this project is about transforming an underutilized site that's currently occupied by this one-story building and a surface parking lot from days of old and replacing it with a thoughtfully designed modern building that responds to this corner site in a new way and strives to meet the ambitious goals set by this city with respect to smart growth transit oriented development, climate resiliency and affordability. So this is what the site looks like today. There are some it's a very eclectic mix of buildings along this stretch of the avenue. You can see, you know, some of the things that we have here are from the upper left, the bus, there's a bus stop right along the property line. A view of the existing restaurant building and the Russell apartment building beyond on the property line there. To the south is the city-owned parking lot, which you see in the middle on the bottom row. On the right is the Russell apartments parking and community garden beyond. And then to the left, as Sean mentioned, is the beautiful Henderson Carriage House, a brick and timber building that's on the National Register. Simple, repetitive, and well-composed building. Our project really, the design begins with, is born from a set of design goals that we developed informed by the city's urban, citywide urban design objectives, the design guidelines for the overlay, several preliminary reviews with CDD's urban design staff, the input that we gathered at two community meetings. So they're really kind of grouped into four categories here. One is, as I said, to transform an underutilized site into an elegant contemporary building, one that's light and airy and sort of looks towards the future of Mass Avenue, responds to the context in a different way. Thinking about the people who live in this building and working to create meaningful connections and shared experiences with them, that's achieved primarily through experiences The shared community space is at the corner, one high, one low. You'll see in the plans and renderings, a rooftop garden and a community room. Delivering high-quality, family-sized apartment homes that are spacious with good daylight and views. We are proposing to use mass timber for the construction of this building. As Sean mentioned, this is a very transit-friendly neighborhood. and to align with affordable housing using healthy indoor materials and air quality. And then finally, to meet the sustainability objectives, we're pursuing passive house certification and looking to align the kind of sustainable strategies that work best for affordable housing, conserving energy and water, sequestering carbon, and paying attention to resiliency. So now I'll walk you through the design beginning with the view at the northwest corner. Here we're showing the building in its context and the exterior here is clad in a light colored material that reflects its surroundings. We're really trying to highlight the corner by lifting it up off the ground, and that's where you see the roof garden at the top, sort of in those open bays up there, and then the highly transparent community space at the street level. So the way this came to be is, I'll sort of walk you through our concept. We start with the idea that this building is made from this mass timber structure that's rhythmic and repetitive, brings interior warmth to the building. And then we lift that up off the ground 16 feet to create a very active and vibrant ground floor along Mass Avenue and Walden Street. Then we reflect that grid in the cladding of the building. a rhythmic and repetitive cladding of a warm neutral colored frame and then we fill in the elements of the frames with windows and textured panels that allow us to tune the facade some of them are more open some of them are more closed to highlight things like the corner or to de-emphasize the transparency where the building abuts the neighborhood and then our final step is to create this what we think will be a beautiful roof garden at the corner, experienced by the people who live in the building, but also something that's visible and a real signal of a community space that's visible from the street, from the ground and different places around the neighborhood. We do have a digital massing model for you as one of the requirements for this meeting. I'm gonna just show you a couple of views of it from the north, from the southwest, from the southeast, and from the northeast. We do have this model available live if you wanna see it from different places as part of the discussion. So back to kind of walking around the site here again. the mass of the building is really reflects the slender shape of the parcel and kind of we're trying to highlight that place where the avenue bends and breaking down the facade by using reveals and different layers of material to break it into slender and elegant proportions to break down and articulate the facade further. And as I've mentioned a few times to really highlight that corner. As we move a little further back, you get a notion of this rhythmic and repetitive facade with residential units behind. Again, the corner is the most open and then it sort of transitions to be less and less open as you move back. Here you see the warm tone materials and the large openings that represent a modern language. As we get closer to the corner, here you're looking into that community room on the corner where we start to, see the mass timber structure kind of, you know, is turned inside out a little bit and becomes part of the character at the street. So we're trying to bring activity and vibrancy. This is also the entrance is just to the left of that community space. So here's what this is what it looks like from the corner at the street. As you go a little bit further up, Coming down Mass Avenue, you see the relationship of the proposed building with the Henderson Carriage Building. While it's certainly not mimicking it, we are thinking that there are commonalities in terms of expressive structure on the facade, repetition, rhythmic, and simplicity. Further up the avenue here, you can see where how the building sits as the avenue bends and how it relates again to the carriage house. Looking up the avenue you get a good sense of how the building relates to the Russell apartment building next door. In the foreground here. And again, catching a glimpse of that roof space on the top at the on the top level on the 12th floor at the corner. We prepared a series of views walking down Walden Street, which is coming from, you know, Mass Avenue was really developed in a hundred foot a hundred foot. section on either side that's more commercial and larger scale, but transitions quickly into a residential neighborhood. So this is walking down Walden Street, Walden Street at Meade Street. These photos were taken around this time of year last year. And then we go one block further to Cypress Street and the building starts to become visible. And then we get to the city owned parking lot. And this is what the building would be experienced like at this point. So the city parking lot serves as a buffer between the building and the residential neighborhood, a row of trees planted along the south edge and working to create some edge plantings along the base of the building as well. Some of those we think might be inside the building too. So we get this kind of indoor outdoor approach. Looking at the site plan, there's a couple of important things here. We were told by city engineers that Walden Street is underperforming because it just isn't wide enough for the three lanes of traffic that are there now. And so as part of this design, we're actually widening, or I guess we're shrinking our property and giving a couple of feet back to Walden Street so that that third lane can be, or so that the two lanes on this side can be widened and allow for proper traffic flow. You see here the plan, the residential amenities space on the corner along with the management office. One of the things we heard very strongly from the community in the community meetings was to have the entrance on Mass Avenue as well as the services. So the trash and fire command room are on Mass Avenue. And then the things that... We're working hard to hide all the services like the transformer and electrical panels and the bike storage is in the lower right corner of this plan. This is a diagram of the Post development condition at Walden Street. So I think those two travel lanes are eight feet. Now, this would make them a proper 10 feet. We are cantilevering the building to accomplish this and still get the dimensionality that we need to make the units work. So this is kind of how that goes. Floor plans. The typical floor plan of the building stacks with a combination of one, two, and three bedrooms, three bedrooms, two and three bedrooms occupying the corners to have Good views out and living rooms and a window for every bedroom. And then the 12th floor is where the roof garden is. We see this roof garden as a quiet reflective space, not as a super active one. And it's joined by an indoor amenity space. Which would be also for the building residents and the laundry is also on the the building wide laundry is on the 12th floor and then on the roof. We are organizing the mechanical equipment neatly and away from the edges and leaving some room for solar PV that's connected to our passive house strategies. That roof garden, as I mentioned, sort of thinking about it conceptually as there's something for everyone. So it's multi-generational. There could be a play area. There could be an area for seniors to sit and talk with each other and also a place for families to gather. Material wise, we're proposing a sort of a family of materials here. The frame would be made of a warm or a buff colored glass reinforced concrete panel that sort of reflects the masonry and the stone in the neighborhood. The field panel within that frame is a textured and profiled panel, sort of a also a tan color and the windows are a dark frame and these are Passive House style polymer windows with operable portions and then the storefront along the street as well as in some of the renderings you saw brick. We think that that ground floor would be brick because it brings human scale and texture to the street level. I'm going to invite Simon from Corb Architects to just talk a little bit about the benefits of mass timber.

Thank you, Jason. And for the record, my name is Simon Mance. I'm an architect with Corp Architecture and we're serving as the mass timber consultant on this project. Mass timber is a fantastic building material. One of the benefits that we've seen in the last 10 years is it has an incredibly low carbon footprint, often trading mass timber for concrete or steel. as we begin to build taller and codes change. Mass timber also sequesters a lot of carbon as well, instead of exposing it. Shortened construction schedules are also beneficial. A lot of the pieces and parts are prefabricated. The connections and precut pieces often quicken the installation time, which helps not only neighbors, but the construction budget. It responds incredibly well to urban infill sites, such as this one on 2072 Mass Ave. I mean, again, due to its prefabricated nature, it makes for installation on tight sites with a single crane much more efficient. Supporting best practices in forest management, Mass Timber is sustainably forested. The whole idea is to keep our old forest growth that can, sort of sucks in the most amount of carbon that they can and leaving more beneficial forests to supporting the mass timber industry. The biophilic benefits for the occupants that we've seen from some of our past projects just offers an incredible benefit to the tenants that occupy these spaces. Just being around this warm material and a natural material sort of makes people feel happy and healthier. Mitigating adverse environmental impacts. This one has been interesting that we've seen sort of a drop in the labor force pool that you need to construct these buildings oftentimes for a 15,000 square foot floor plate. We're seeing only eight people using screw guns to install these projects. So I think that often offers the neighbors a much quieter, simpler construction technique instead of having loud pile drivers or concrete trucks going up and down the site. Next slide, please. On the left, you'll see a project that we did in downtown Milwaukee called Ascent. It's a 25-story building made of mass timber and concrete. It's a hybrid structure, which means that the cores are made of concrete for life safety reasons, but also for lateral structure. Again, you get the sense of sort of the aesthetic qualities of the mass timber glulam beams and columns with the wide open spaces. And on the right, this is a project out of Seattle called Heartwood. which again uses a really nice Douglas fir product for the glulam beams and columns and what I think is a Douglas fir CLT product for all the decking. So again, it really allows for a nice open space with the post and beam construction. Thank you.

Thanks, Simon. I'd like to just I know you've you've received our materials. I'm just going to take a quick walk through the elevations of the building measured drawing. So this is the north facade. Again, you see the way that we're breaking down the mass into different vertical shapes along the facades and the way that the base interacts with the street. West elevation along Walden Street. South elevation facing the city on parking lot again here smaller windows and a little more articulation and detail. And the east elevation, which is facing the Russell apartment building. We were asked as part of our engagement with the community to prepare a couple of specific views. This is one of those from Creighton Street looking towards the rear or across the rear facade of the Russell apartment building from the parking lot of the Russell apartment building with the community garden space in between the parking lot and the proposed 2072 building. and then a view from within that garden. And we are working with an arborist to, we've developed a tree protection plan to protect this linden tree that sits in between the two properties. And I'll end by sharing our shadow studies with you. This is, our methodology here is to show the shadows on the solstices and the equinoxes at 9 a.m., noon, and 3 p.m. So here we are in the summer. The existing shadows are gray, and the new shadow from the 2072 building is shown in purple. So in the summer, in the morning, the shadows are cast up Mass Avenue to the west. At noon, they're cast, when the sun is really high, they're sort of cast right around the building and onto the avenue. And then as the afternoon comes on, they shift over to the east and onto the avenue and onto the Russell apartment building. In the winter, The shadows are longer because the sun is lower. So again, up the avenue in the morning, onto the avenue and sort of towards the carriage house, Henderson carriage house in the middle of the day. And then sadly around three o'clock when the sun's about to set, the shadows start to disappear over the avenue. And then in the spring and fall, a similar pattern, just not quite as long. So that is the end of our formal presentation. Thank you for your time. Again, we come ready to listen. We understand the city's desire for high quality affordable housing projects that are compatible with the city and its future planning objectives. Thank you.

Thank you. We appreciate the presentation. Let's see, as I mentioned, We are gonna be taking public comments. That is part of the zoning for this site. So we will be taking public comment on the design review. I'd like to remind speakers that the board's action is not to approve or deny an application, but to provide advisory comments on the design that was presented. Now any member of the public who wishes to speak should now click the button that says raise hand. If you're calling in by phone, you can raise your hand by pressing star nine. As of 5 p.m. yesterday, the board had received written comments from Young Kim, Frederico Muchnick, Ethan Frank, Michael Kennedy, Ben Wargaft, Anna Bard, and Steven Davis. written communications received after 5 p.m. Yesterday will be entered into the record. So if anyone who's interested in speaking would please raise their hand now. So we have a fairly large group attending this evening. So I just want to get a sense of how many speakers we think we will have. So please raise your hand. Okay, right now it looks like about 10. I'll ask staff to unmute speakers one at a time. Please begin by saying your name and address and staff will confirm that we can hear you. After that, you will have three minutes to wrap up. I'm sorry, three minutes to speak before I ask you to wrap up. And with that, let me turn it over to Jeff who will manage public comment.

Thank you, Mary. And I'll just, as a reminder to people in the audience, you only need to push the raise hand button once and it'll put you in a queue. So we'll get to you. Since there's a good number of speakers, I'll read one speaker and then the speaker who's coming up next so that you're ready. Assuming you keep your hand up, then you'll be able to go next. And I apologize in advance. I'm just reading the names that come up on the Zoom. So please make sure you say your name when you begin. Because sometimes it's a little bit different or I might mispronounce it. So we're beginning with Young Kim, who's the first speaker. And the next speaker will be Pamela Winters.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

Thank you, Chair Flynn and members of the planning board. I submitted three letters and a petition signed by over 150 concerns of the 530 community. I submit the Mass Avenue affordable housing overlay project is a good place to study your decision tonight will not only affect the immediate neighborhood, but also set a precedent for future large-scale AHU projects, including the Leslie parking lots and the First Roseland portfolio combined with Forest Terrace. The project can't be reviewed without understanding its complex history, which Sean briefly touched upon. It dates back to 2018 when the property was purchased with financing from the Penn Beach Affordable Housing Trust. Since then, extensions and modifications have raised serious questions that deserve a closer look. Unfortunately, the limited comment time tonight doesn't allow me to go into full detail, but I've outlined this concern in the letters I submitted to you. potential improper use of affordable housing trust funds. Second, the absence of adaptive standards for high-rise mass timber construction in Cambridge. And finally, accessibility deficiency, including the lack of reliable accessible parking, passenger drop-off, and safe path problems from the street to the units. These are not technicalities. They are part of safety, equity, and public accountability. I respectfully draw your attention to the petition signed by 157 residents, which I submitted earlier this evening to Ms. Joseph. It reflects both community concerns and shared desire for responsible, well-regulated development. I urge the board to take this issue seriously and recommend deferral onto the city that clears standards for mass timber construction and ensure compliance with accessible and funding oversight requirements. One quick comment on design is that the angular tower is too jarring in the neighborhood, which could be solved by rounding the four corners. Thank you for your time and careful consideration.

Thank you. The next speaker is Pamela Winters, who's followed by Bill McIvenny. And Pamela, you can unmute yourself and begin.

Can you hear me all right?

Yes.

Oh, great. All right. Yes, I want to thank everybody very much for coming this evening. And I just wanted to say I was on the planning board for 15 years. My term ended in 2015. So I'm very familiar. with architecture and the like. I have a question for the developers. Why the increase in height? The last time we met, the height of the building was supposed to be, I believe, about half the size that it is now, or the proposed building is now. So that is a question that I would have. And I'm wondering how far away from the senior center the building is, actually. It seems very close to me. Also, I'm wondering where the cars from the people that come into the building, where will they park? How many cars do you estimate will be as part of this project and where will they park in the city? That's the second question I have. And the third question I have, I have four questions altogether. Fourth question is, I know that the city cannot mandate that the residents not own a car since it is right on public transportation. And I think that the city cannot mandate that. I shouldn't say that I know that for sure, but I'm wondering where, handicap parking will be. That, I know, is mandated by the state, and as a handicapped person now, that's something that is very important to me. So thank you very much for your time, and good luck with your project.

Thank you. The next speaker is Bill McIvenny, who's followed by Rachel Miller.

Hi, Bill McIvenny, 12 Douglas Street. I really appreciate that this project is finally moving forward. We are in dire need of housing, especially very affordable housing. I also appreciate that this project seems well thought out, well designed. I appreciate that it has added some stories so that we can have more housing on the same land area. And finally, as a pedestrian I really appreciate that you are not encouraging additional cars on our city streets, thank you.

Thank you, the next speaker is Rachel Miller was followed by Helen Walker.

hi my name is Rachel Miller, can you hear me yes. Hi, so I am Rachel Miller. I live at 11 Walden Street, which will get some of the shadow. We're very close. I can see the lot from my seat at my dining table in my dining room. And I wanted to say that, while I am not excited about living across from a construction site, I am very excited to be having a large affordable housing structure going up in my neighborhood and I wanted to express my support for this project, I know that. The people that I know that are on the waitlist for affordable housing in Cambridge don't have cars. And so I'm not super worried about parking in the neighborhood. Thank you very much.

Thank you. The next speaker is Helen Walker, who's followed by Benjamin Kane.

Thank you. Can you hear me?

Yes.

I'm Helen Walker, 43 Lennon Street. I'm an architect. I have some experience in healthy buildings. First, I'd like to say that I think it's a handsome building. I'm really glad you're using the GFRC material. I think that's a big step up from fiber cement panels. And I appreciate that you showed the 3D model. That's a really good thing. I have had correspondence with Jason Korb about the mass timber, and I'd like to talk about that tonight. Jason has been really good about getting back to me, and I know you all are thinking about these questions in-house. But since this technology is new to Cambridge, I think we have to be very careful in investigating it. There are reports coming in from Asia of sick building syndrome from this product, unless the 100% no formaldehyde glue is specified. And that's a small portion of the mass timber that's manufactured, so you have to look for it and you have to carefully specify it. The standard that was referred for what you're using is good for healthy males of working age. It's not necessarily good enough for children or elderly, and especially not good enough for people who have pre-existing conditions such as asthma or previous exposure to mold, which has made them sensitive to indoor air quality. So for this particular population that you're serving, it's really, really important that you not have Too much formaldehyde emissions coming out of that mass timber. I was particularly alarmed at the photos of the wood ceilings. That's a whole lot of area that could be emitting formaldehyde. And then there's the question of the fireproofing. As a 12 story building, you're going to need two hour ratings between floors. I don't know how you're achieving that without using drywall. Are you using fire retardant treatment in the wood? And if so, that's another source of poor air quality for your inhabitants. I don't have the answers, but the answers are out there if you're willing to look for them. And I ask you to go beyond the normal certifications to find a solution that's healthy for our residents. Thank you.

Thank you. The next speaker is Benjamin Kane, who's followed by David Halperin.

Hey, are you able to hear me?

Yes.

Hi, I'm a resident at 205 Walden Street, and I'm also a law student at Harvard and a member of the Tenant Advocacy Project, where I represent tenants who receive Section 8 vouchers and are living in public housing projects. I'm just here in my personal capacity, and I bike by that lot all the time, and I've noticed it as an unused area, as sort of wondering what was going on with it. So I'm really, really excited to see the development. We'll just echo what has already been said, that we do have a very serious public, a serious shortage in affordable housing in Cambridge. And I see a lot of knock-on effects of that, where many, many problems are downstream of the availability of affordable housing. And so it has been wonderful to see what you all put together in the presentation today. I think the building looks great, and I would love to have this property in my backyard. So thank you.

Thank you. The next speaker is David Halprin, who's followed by Sean Smeland.

Hi, good evening. David Halprin, 14 Valentine Street, Unit 3. I was actually going to say pretty much exactly the same thing as the last speaker. I often pass by this lot and, you know, just notice how underdeveloped it is and, you know, that's not what you want like especially you know right near our uh subway stops um i think this design really looks beautiful i really appreciate that and you know this is you know this very nice like uh high efficiency building right near our public transit around our corridors that's really what we should be doing and you know building densely during this housing crisis i think it's really great thank you

Thank you. The next speaker is Sean Smeland, followed by Marilee Meyer.

Hello, can you hear me? Yes. Great. Yes, my name is Sean Smeland. I live at 2130 Mass Ave. And I just want to mention a couple of things. I'm very happy to have the affordable housing being built here and especially using that lot. Of course, I live here, I walk past here all the time. And I'm really excited about the idea of widening Walden Street. I think that's very necessary and I'm very pleased that that's part of the project. I do know that a lot of the residents of my building at 2130 Mass Ave do have concerns about the building, I think mostly related to the height and to the transportation and parking issues, or traffic issues, I should say. For myself, it's mainly, I think it would echo Pamela Winter's question about the increase in the height. 12 stories is an extremely tall building for this area, and I do think that the The rendered images, the street view images that Jason presented are a little bit deceiving. It kind of looks like the building is, you know, less than twice the height of the carriage building, but 12 stories is a very tall building for this area. And I think essentially at that height, it would be a bit of an eyesore. So I'm interested to know, understand why it went from, you know, about half that height to now the 12 story proposal, because six stories is a much more manageable height for this region. So that's my comment. Thank you.

Thank you. The next speaker is Marilee Meyer, who's followed by Lee Ferris.

Hi, Marilee Meyer, 10 Dana Street. And I am really glad, frankly, that we have a building that's 100% affordable housing and not just the 20% formula that's not going to get us anywhere. So I'm happy about that, per se. Let's see. Well, most of my comments are due. Are you still going with just a single elevator or are there any stairs? Because when the elevator goes out, there's no movement up and down for escape. That's one. And you said that where's the trash pickup? And also, if the city owns the parking lot behind, is there any way of having access to that. So you would have pick up and drop off and move in for trucks and everything. You do not have any active area around the building for actual tenant use. As far as we'll see, I appreciate Helen Walker's comments about the formaldehyde and fire rating. because that's really important for immune deficient people who have environmental issues. As far as the color is concerned, I still go back to wanting to tone it down with earth tone colors. Is there a way to pick out the open space on the top corner with a slightly different color? So you break the facade. You have channels on the facades of the entire length of the building, the height of the building. Are those channels a different color? So you break up that horizontal facade. I have so many comments. I think that is it. Elevator, color, formaldehyde. So that's it. Thank you.

Thank you. The next speaker is Lee Farris, who's followed by John Gasly.

Good evening. Lee Farris, Norfolk Street in the Port. I had a few comments and a few questions about the building. Start with what I like. I really like that it's 30% AMI and 60% AMI. I'm not sure about how much there is of each of those. So if that could be stated, that would be great. I'm enthusiastic about trying the mass timber for the first time, I think, in Cambridge. Certainly the concerns about formaldehyde are important, but otherwise I think it's a good material that I'm glad that the state is now allowing people to use. Concerns that I have are... I'm wondering about and not enthusiastic about the large frame of rectangles that cover two floors rather than one floor. And I'm also concerned, as was mentioned in the CDD memo, about the ratio of glass to solid wall and think that perhaps it would be better both from the environmental point of view as well as a visual point of view to have a bit less glass. Some questions are the green part of the roof is great, the garden. I'm wondering if grilling for residents will be allowed there or in an indoor room. I'm wondering if the building is pretty much touching the Russell apartment building. On the roof, I'm also wondering if there is any growing space for residents, for plants, for example. I know some large buildings that people I know live in that have roof gardens have herb gardens, which is a real benefit for residents. And then I'm wondering what you're going to do about loading and unloading, given that Walden Street is so tight and Mass Ave is so busy. Thank you.

Thank you. The next speaker is John Gasly, who's followed by James Zoll.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

I love the design. John Gaisley, 11 Wright Street. My biggest concern of a scale of a project like this is traffic during construction as Walden Street is a major cut through during commuter hours. And the expansion of Walden Street, the widening of it, is that going to be done prior to the construction or after the building is done? More of like, you know, vehicles coming in and out of the construction area and the impact in the traffic area. Thank you.

Thank you. And the next speaker and last hand raised is James Zoll. So before I go, I'll just say if you intended to speak or maybe you thought your hand was raised and you haven't spoken yet and wanted to, I think I would encourage you to push the raise hand button now or star nine on your phone so we can make sure we get all speakers in. So the last hand raised at this point is James Zoll. You can go ahead.

Thank you. This is James Zoll, excuse me, 203 Pemberton Street. I am also very pleased to see this project back. It is better than before, especially in the sense that it now will have space for more residents. This is housing that we badly need, of course. I'm also glad that with a few exceptions, the biggest problem that the project had before was that people who were commenting on it and who lived in the neighborhood were misunderstanding the process of approving housing. And it seems, with a few exceptions tonight, that that more people understand what the city is trying to do with housing with our housing shortage. And there were only a few examples of people imagining that they can make up new requirements and cause delays in this project, which I hope that that does not happen this time. Thank you very much.

Thank you. One more hand is raised, and it's Young Kim. I'm just going to go quickly because sometimes there's a different person on an account. So I'm just going to check. And we only allow speakers to speak once. So if this is another speaker, you can go ahead. But I think if it's Young Kim, you've already spoken.

Yes, I know that I spoke up earlier, but there's a very Any questions?

I'm sorry, Mr. Kim. We only allow speakers to speak once, so thank you for your input, but we need to move on to the next speaker.

There is one additional hand that's raised in the meantime, and that's Luke Smith. So you can begin with your name and address. I'm not hearing, I'm not sure if Luke Smith or the person's name is Luke Smith on the Zoom. I don't know if you're speaking, but we're not hearing anything. And if you're connected by phone, you may need to unmute using star six, but I'm not sure if that's the case. Okay. We'll see if we can resolve any issues, but I'm going to turn it back over to the chair at this point. That appears to be all the speakers who only spoke once.

Okay, and just to remind folks, you can still send in written comments to the board and there will also be a second design review on this project. So there'll be another opportunity for a public comment as well. So we're now going to move from public comment to board discussion. There were a lot of questions from the public. I'm sure the board members have some of the same ones. So let's start with board member questions. And as we go through those, if there are some from the public that we've missed, I'll try to get back to those at the end. So who would like to begin? Diego.

Thank you, Mary. I have three questions. I think some of them were part of the public comment. The first one is for the applicant, is the formaldehyde question, because I was thinking the same thing about indoor air quality related to mass timber. Second question is, I'm not sure if this is for the applicant or for the city staff as well, but just to have someone talk about the city lot that's behind or just under the property and how that will work. Because I think there's... There's just like concern that I have, because that's a really busy street on Mass Ave right in front of the building with unloading and loading. And there's the bus stop, I think, right in front of the building. So if there's going to be like a dedicated spot in the city lot, if that's possible, is there going to be like a sign or like for loading and unloading of residents if they can park there? That's my second question. And then the third question is, I thought was a pretty good one, which was the Walden Street construction. I don't know if that's come up yet or that's still to be determined, but I agree that having that construction of that street with the building would be tough. Thank you.

Great. Okay. So why don't we start with the petitioner staff and perhaps you can address issue the street timing and you know, what where your discussions with the city stand if at all regarding the parking situation.

I can I'm happy to take a first stab at the formaldehyde question. Obviously, it's a you know, it's a trigger word and it's not something that's just unique to Mass Timber. You know, we've permitted a lot of projects, and we've never heard why your cabinets have formaldehyde, why some of your adhesives have formaldehyde. Unfortunately, in the world that we live in, these products are incorporated VOCs, low-VOC products, all contain different levels of VOCs, and some do contain formaldehyde. As best as we try to not have those in the building, they're just unavoidable. And so... you know, MDF as formaldehyde, which is like plywood. If we were to do structural steel, we'd be applying, I think, as a commenter made, spray-applied fireproofing gives off significant amount of UACs, which this building won't do. So we're very interested in pursuing a non-formaldehyde mass timber product. It's not something we can commit to today. And we put this in our application. There are polyurethane-based products mass timber products as well. And Simon obviously knows more about this than I do. But we do take this issue very seriously. The level of formaldehyde in the mass timber, just to be clear, it is certified by Green Guard and it has 7.3 parts per billion. Okay. And I'm happy to, we're happy to submit this spec sheet that I'm looking at right now. which is far below almost all standards for indoor air set by EPA and others, WHO. So, you know, if we want to have a discussion about indoor air, it's not just mass timber, right? Mass timber is a small portion of what the entire building is. And so the other thing I wanted to mention is we will be commissioning the building. And this is actually like, if you really want us to do something, I see Diego's shaking his head, right? If you really want to make the indoor air quality healthy in a building, you flush the building significantly. And by commissioning the building, the building will undergo a significant flush of the indoor air. And that in itself will remove a lot of the VOCs and the materials that were installed during construction significantly. quite materially so jason forney simon i don't know if you have anything else you'd like to add we are happy to submit this um and like i said we will make best efforts to use a product that does not contain formaldehyde i would like to say to you on with regard to mass timber there are over 2200 mass timber buildings right now in the united states either under construction or completed This is not a new technology, right? Cambridge doesn't have a steel standard. They don't have a wood frame standard, right? The state building code governs all of this. The state adopted 2021. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I'm also talking to the audience. The state has adopted the 2021 IBC type 4B, I think it is, right? 4B, Jason, is mass timber construction, right? So, you know, the building inspector and ISD is responsible for upholding the state building code, which defaults back to the IBC and also state amendments. So this is heavily regulated. We're not the first to do this. UMass has a mass timber center. There was a very large affordable housing development at Bunker Hill that was constructed as mass timber. There's a seven story building in Boston that has been mass timber. So it's not like we came up with this overnight and said, wow, this is a great idea. We're trying to do something innovative here. We could build a steel building. Sure. It will take four months longer. It will require twice as many piles that will have to go significantly deeper and cause more disruption to the neighborhood. We're trying to be a good neighbor. But primarily, we really want to build something that's special for our residents because they deserve it. And it will be a really amazing place to live. And if you haven't visited a mass timber building, I highly recommend you do. They're very special.

Great. Thank you. Any thoughts on the parking situation? Are you in discussion with the city?

Yeah. So again, I don't want to speak for the city, but we've had sort of an informal... We're at sort of an informal place now where... I would call it an informal commitment that either there will be a drop-off zone at the front of the building or somehow utilizing the city parking lot at the rear. You know, we realize that residents do utilize, residents of the neighborhood do utilize that parking lot. So we want to be very sensitive regarding the use of that. But we will also defer to the city in terms of that. It's obviously something that we would like to have. And I think the neighborhood would like it as well. And I think the city recognizes that, so.

And Diego, I've forgotten what your third question was now. I'm sorry.

Yeah, my third question was a comment on the Walden Street construction at the same time as the building.

I think the idea right now is to do it simultaneously. I think we'd want to sequence it in the appropriate time during construction. We haven't developed a detailed construction schedule. Most of the utilities, I believe, come off of Walden Street, so we would do it at the same time as that. In our application, there is a very large Eversource electrical duct bank that runs underneath that Walden Street sidewalk. We have done multiple surveys, GPR surveys. We've also contacted Eversource. Their records are kind of okay. We think it's going to work. But until we actually tear up the sidewalk and see where the duct bank is, We won't 100% know but we're I'd say we're like 95 99% certain that widening Walden Street will work. We obviously cannot move a massive electrical duck bank if we do encounter it. So but so I think the answer is we're not quite sure if it's something you want more clarity on though. We can before the next meeting we can try to get some more clarity.

So I think it would be important to I'm sorry.

I was just saying that's a great question. Sorry. Oh, okay.

I think it would be nice if you do have more information at the next design review. I would appreciate your filling us in on that because I think, you know, the traffic on Walden Street and the you know, the Toronto Mass Ave and just have congested that area is right now is a concern. And I, for one, was very happy to see that you were working with the city to widen those lanes. I think that that will make a difference in how, you know, having the building can be levered. So I think it's very important for this project. So I appreciate that. Let's go to Ashley next.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a few questions. So the first one is I couldn't quite tell from the plans that were provided what the materiality and even size of the entrances for the trash room and I think it's a five-room entrance on Mass Ave was, just because it is, I know it's behind a bus stop that is a significant portion of Mass Ave, so I was just curious about that. So that's my first question. My second question is... The roof garden, I don't think I've seen a roof garden that's that high up for a residential use. So I was just curious, I think I've seen a lot of institutions, a lot of offices. So I was curious if you guys had examples of it and how that's utilized. And my last question, which was something I've been trying to wrap my brain around is, so AS JEFF MENTIONED EARLIER BEFORE THIS PORTION OF THE MEETING STARTED, IN TWO WEEKS FROM NOW WE'RE GOING TO BE HEARING THE ZONING PETITION FOR MASS AVE, WHICH THIS IS GOING TO BE A PART OF. AND OBVIOUSLY THAT WOULD CHANGE THE ZONING OF THIS AREA. MAYBE THIS IS NOT, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS A QUESTION FOR THE DEVELOPER OR FOR THE CITY, BUT WOULDN'T THIS PROJECT BE you know, subject to that new zoning. And if so, are there any, you know, is this is this designed to meet those standards? I think there's probably different. I think it's like different transparency requirements.

It's probably a question for Jeff. So I don't mean to cut you off, Ashley. Did you have anything else?

No, that was it.

Thank you. So Jeff, can you clarify that and then we can go to the development team on the materiality and rooftop garden questions.

Sure. I can just quickly say, and maybe Evan can confirm if this is incorrect, but just broadly, and he can give any more details, but this is an affordable housing overlay development and the affordable housing overlay supersedes the base zoning. So it sets particular height standards and waives a lot of the other base zoning requirements that might normally apply. under zoning, we don't anticipate that. So the Mass Ave zoning petition is, you know, advertised. The board will be having a hearing about it, but we don't expect that that will impact this as an affordable housing overlay development. The effects of that will be on other, you know, non-affordable housing overlay development.

Thank you. That was very helpful. And so then to the design team, I guess, can you talk about the questions that Ashley had, one on the trash entrance? I think that actually also on the Walden Street side, if you could address sort of issues with the electrical transformer entrance, because right now it does kind of look just like a blank wall. And then the gardens.

Sure, thank you. I think that's definitely one of the things that we want to talk more about when we come back to see you. But the kind of our idea is that we want to use a very high quality material at the ground. you know, maybe an elongated brick or something like that. And then to try to design these doors or services in a way that they almost seem like they're not there, like no hardware on the outside and maybe they get incorporated into kind of a bigger move in the facade and also maybe on Walden Street, especially incorporated into a planter. We also want to get a little more transparency on the Walden side into the building and maybe reshuffling the program a little bit there. So I think we acknowledge that that's something we want to be as good as the rest of the building, and maybe it's not at this conceptual level. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And I think it's all hiding behind the bus stop, but we also realize that that bus stop may change with the kind of transportation planning that's happening along Mass Avenue. On the roof garden, I think we could also show you some examples when we come back, but I think there are plenty of tall roof gardens. We did one recently in Boston on the 20th floor, and it's pretty spectacular to be up that high. And we are working with ground as our landscape architect who has experience with that too. And I think it comes down to choosing the right kind of plants that can thrive in that area. We're also, you know, we're trying to not overdo it with the plants either because it needs to be maintained and sort of find the right balance of, you know, tranquility and activity on that roof space. So we can show you some more examples, but I do feel pretty confident that it will work well up that high.

I do want to make a comment just in terms of safety up that high as well. A lot of us have little kids and our hope is that families will utilize that space, whether it be for birthday parties or celebrations, or like Jason said, or shake wall type things. Our intent is to go far above any railing height requirements to heights that no child would be able to scale. So we spent a lot of time thinking about that and we'll make sure we implement that. So I believe we plan on doing that with glass, right, Jason?

Yes, correct.

Yeah.

Thank you. Let's see. Let's move to Dan.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So thank you very much for the presentation and appreciated the comments coming in from the public and questions from my fellow board members. I'm certainly appreciative that this is coming forward, I think, still in schematic design, and I just kind of wanted to confirm that this was still, particularly for the interior preliminary, I'm noticing still some coordination of interior partitioning with exterior facades, so I know that's sort of coming along. I don't want to get too detailed with questions, but certainly an observation, and I think this comes up with the Mass Ave and Broadway petitions for zoning in terms of height i know there are questions that came in from the public about why a jump from nine stories to twelve and um you know from my experience it's purely economic um so you you um have a great deal more efficiency in construction and construction costs once you hit that 12-story height so very appreciative to see that in the new zoning and um also appreciative although there's some maybe further development but the uh the kind of double height structure of the of the project helps bring the scale down i think considerably so that's much appreciated so i'm sorry some of these are commentary but so questions um Certainly would love to see which units are designated as type two so from a handicap standpoint, we're talking about parking spaces, I think i'm guessing that you've got five here somewhere around there. and distributed throughout the building so it'd be helpful as a request to see those designated in the future piece and. Just in terms of the layout, obviously the mass timber has its own structural grid and component. So seeing how that lays out within the building will be super helpful for answering a few other questions. If I could ask just for confirmation that cost is the reason for not doing a below grade floor. I think as a comment, the ground floor is pretty crowded with program and it'd be great to have a little bit more transparency, both to Mass Ave and to Walden, quite honestly. Otherwise, uh as far as questions um i think i'll reserve a few more because i think these have been more comments than uh other than just clarification on any of the points that i just brought up thanks okay um who on the project team would like to address um

parking for those, and then first floor program. I noticed going back to a previous version of the project that you did have some parking in the building, which I believe was below grade. Can you talk about the rationale for eliminating that in this version as well?

Jason Borney, do you want to take this one?

Sure. I think that certainly the basement, the driver of the basement is economics. It is an expensive element. And the things that we would want to put down there are not great to put down there anyway, like transformers and electrical rooms, the things that are on the ground floor. So I confirm that was the primary driver. In terms of the parking, Well, just to be clear, there is zero parking proposed on the project site. We found that in the previous design, just putting in two parking spaces and a drop off took about half of the site. for maneuvering and clearances and turning around. So we moved away from that so that we could get more amenities and residential units on the site. We also heard a lot about how hard it was to pull in and off of Walden Street with cars. there's really no scenario where we would have had a curb cut on Mass Ave coming into the building. So there's a couple of reasons we moved away from that. I can also just confirm, Dan, that you're right. We are in a sort of schematic level design and all the things that you identified are in our minds and being worked on as we speak and will be more resolved the next time we come see you, including the identification of Type 2 units.

Thank you. Let's go to Ted. What questions do you have?

Okay. Well, thank you. And I'm glad to hear that it's schematic stage because a lot of my questions are about things that I can't quite figure out. My first question was going to be about the facade, the north facade where the trash room and the other facilities are. And similarly on the west facade where the garage doors are. And really, when you come back, we'd like to see clearly what your plans are for them. And I understand when you responded earlier that you were talking about maybe some sort of different type of brick. I'd suggest you also take a look at the grill on Kennedy Street in Harvard Square, which is a really lovely grill that it closes a garage door, and that if you could do something like that. Yes, it is behind the bus stop, but there are a lot of people who walk back and forth on Mass Ave, including me. A question is, how does one get into the bike room, both on the first floor and the second floor? Because it looks to me like you have to go through the front door and go through the lobby. And if that is indeed the case, could you put a door on the rear, on the south end, so that access to the bike room is much easier and doesn't require going through the lobby? I'm also interested in the windows for units on the second, third, fourth, fifth, and maybe sixth floor that abut the Russell Apartments. I can't quite figure out where the bedrooms are and what windows they have. And so really would like to see how that's all going to work out. You know, I think, you know, I'll save my other comments for later. But, you know, I do like the building a lot. And while you didn't answer it in terms of why it got bigger, from my point of view, the fact that it has many more affordable units is the justification for the additional height. LEAVING ASIDE WHAT IT DOES IN TERMS OF YOUR CONSTRUCTION COSTS. THOSE ARE MY QUESTIONS RIGHT NOW.

THANK YOU. OKAY. SO TO THE TEAM, THEN. THE BIKE ROOM ACCESS, ACCESS FROM THE REAR, WINDOWS, ABUTTING THE RUSSELL PROJECT. who would like to take a stab at all of them.

I'll do that. Yeah, you bring up all good points again, Ted. I think that our idea was that you would come through the lobby with your bike to get to the ground floor bike room. And I think we want to work on perhaps having a second way to do that from outside and even having a wider and straighter corridor that gets you there. The second floor, I think we were just missing a door that was supposed to come out to the hallway, but you would take your bike on the elevator to get to the second floor. And I think that your comments on the ground floor facade are well received and something that we're working on and plan to update you when we come back. I appreciate the reference to the well-designed grill. We'll take a look at that. And the same thing with the windows on the east facade. I think we're currently working on that kind of intersection of structure and unit plan and fenestration. And I think I agree that we need to work harder on that facade.

What is the distance between the building? Yeah, so I mean, I know that...

There are several that was asked by a couple of folks from the public. I think there are three different dimensions depending on where you are. So at the ground floor, currently it's six inches from the property line. As you go up the building, it's three feet and five feet because those are related to the amount of fenestration that you could have. So that's the answer. Once you get above the third floor, it's three feet at the back. It's three feet where there isn't a building and five feet where there is a building. And those numbers are about the same. The Russell apartment building is about six inches from the property line at one corner and probably four feet at the other corner. It's kind of has a diagonal profile against the lot line.

I would like to go back to the question of why it's taller, because I do think that's important. I think the member said it perfectly. Yes, it's because of more affordable apartments. Every time in the previous iteration that we started cutting out apartments, we all said to ourselves, that's one less family that's going to have affordable housing. Now, some people might choose to not believe me, right? They might say I'm so profit-motivated. But for those that know me and know Sean, my partner, I've dedicated my entire career to building affordable housing. It's something that's very meaningful to me. I grew up with tons of benefits in my life. And we could financially build a six-story building and it would be fine for Sean and myself. There really would be no skin off our back. But we're really trying to do something significant here that really makes a dent in the housing crisis that's going on, especially in Cambridge, which is one of the most expensive cities in the country. So that is the truth. That's absolutely the truth.

Great. Thank you for clarifying that. Okay, Carolyn, what questions do you have?

Thank you, Madam Chair. So the benefit of going last is that most of my questions have been asked already. I will note that I was going to add to the chorus of people concerned about the pedestrian experience past the shorefront. Sounds like you guys are working on it. So I will refrain from comments on that or questions on that. I did have a question on the short-term bike parking. Looks like only one space is being provided with the exception of maybe a bike, a shared bike space. blue bike stations somewhere nearby. I'm curious about where that will be and if there isn't somehow room somewhere in incorporating more short-term bike storage just for delivery people and visiting friends and family and whatever. One, short-term bike parking does not seem like a lot.

Thank you. Yeah, and that's a good question. I can answer that. So we did work with the bike parking department. It is a really tight site. So we're trying to do a lot on 8,000 square feet. And so the one space that we did have, you know, there are quality spaces, right? They didn't want to put spaces that were inaccessible. So we did, as part of our application, we are committed to working with a blue bike station. Similarly, because of the massive reconstruction, they didn't want to rush and say, hey, let's put it in an area that we might move it. Unfortunately, we're fortunate this project is going to probably take maybe another year and a half to two years to go through the different financing sources. So we have quite a bit of time, but we have committed to making sure that we will comply with a bike station. And then frankly, if a part of their renovations on Mass Ave, because a lot of it will happen in front of our building, if there is room either on the public way and or somehow, you know, in an adjacent space, we're committed to doing that. But the one space is what we could commit to given the site constraints we have. and we are committed to adopting a blue bike station as part of that next step.

Okay, so looking through questions from the public, there was a question about elevators and stairwells. I believe that in a previous version of this, there was just one elevator, but I think now there are two from what I saw on the plans. Is that correct?

Yes, there are two elevators and two stairs as well.

Okay. And a question about grilling for residents up at the terrace level.

You probably haven't figured that out exactly. As of now, we do not plan on... As of now, unless something drastically changes, we do not plan on that. We do have an interior menu space that connects to the exterior menu space. And there probably will be some opportunity for a resident to cook on the interior menu space. like a kitchenette type of thing. But yes, no outdoor grills.

Okay, sounds good. And then one question I had was just about the number of machines provided in the laundry room. You guys are much more familiar than I am with what the right ratio is, but it didn't look like a lot of washer and dryers for that big a building. So I'm just curious, like, how did you determine that that was the number?

We were just talking, the building code is 1 for 10. Apartments, is that right, Jason? Yeah. And I think that's just advice, but we have to, building code does govern the number, the minimum number that we need to provide, but it's something we can look at again, certainly.

Yeah, I think we had eight washing machines and six dryers or something.

The dryers are stacked, so there are eight dryers as well.

Oh, okay, okay. That's helpful. Okay, building code. It's good to know. Thank you. All right, so, We've asked a lot of questions, lots of things for follow-up. Let's go back to board members for comments. And again, this is, you know, design review. So if you have more comments on the design as presented, the materials, the color that's come up. Eric has also provided and CDD staff in general have provided their usual very detailed memo. And there are a number of comments from Eric as well. So we'll probably want to maybe hear from him before the evening is over. But why don't we start with the board and see what comments you have.

Ashley. I can start, Madam Chair. So I guess as others have alluded to, I think one thing I would love to see next time is more detail on, you know, both the Mass Ave and the Walden Street facades. I know this is based off of what Jeff and Evan were saying. Even if the new maps of zoning were to go through, it sounds like the age show is still the overlay. And so you may not have to comply with the dimensions or design guidelines in those. But, you know, it's the mass of planning has been in place for, I think, almost the last two years. And some of the goals were to really make Mass Ave more inviting, really activate it. And for better or worse, this portion of Mass Ave doesn't have too much going on right now other than the senior center so anything to make it a little more exciting I know right now it's just a gray grayed out area but anything to make a little more inviting would be great and there's not if there is not much to work with you know the grilling the grill patterns that Ted alluded to earlier or even some artwork or something along those lines to make a little more exciting would be good to see. Even transparency would be helpful. I know the AHO does have requirements that no more than 25 feet should be without an opening. And so I think we're getting pretty close to that number and But if there is a way to make that ground floor a little more accessible, a little more transparent, I think that would be a good move. But I wanted to say, and sorry, I'm jumping everywhere, but I'm excited to see this is a mass timber building. I did visit the Bunker Hill building project a few months ago and it was very beautiful. The tenants were really happy with it. Um, and so I'm excited to see a similar, obviously it's a lot smaller project in Cambridge and, um, Well, I think it would be nice for next time to see some sort of layout plan for the rooftop garden. I know you're not working with much space, but because there isn't much space, the layout and what is included is even more important. And then this is, I'm sure the architects on the board can probably talk about this more a bit. So I noticed that there is a lot of, almost the opposite of my earlier comment, there is a lot of transparency on the upper levels, the residential floors along Mass Ave. WALDEN STREET, THAT CORNER. AND ONE THING I'VE BEEN NOTICING ABOUT A BUILDING NEAR ME IS THAT THAT ALSO HAS A LOT OF TRANSPARENCY IS THAT I know the goal is to allow residents to keep their windows open and see, but because that building is very close to the sidewalk, which this one is also going to be, I've never seen the residents ever open the shades to their windows. It's similar into this design. It's, you know, floor to close to ceiling. And so I'd be curious to, you know, just to see You know, is this the best move? Is there... Yeah, I think a little more thought or... Yeah, a little more thought or a little more... Maybe details would be helpful to see if that's the best for this corner because it is very close to Mass Ave and a busy street. But I think that is it. And I also just wanted to compliment you guys for dedicating a large number of percent of the units to family size units. I think that is something we all love to see. So thank you.

Thank you, Ashley. Diego, let's hear from you next.

Yeah, I'll start off with the things that I really like. I love the amenity spaces that you have. I love the roof garden. I think it's great that you have that space upstairs, indoor and outdoor. I've lived in something similar, and it was really a pleasant space, and it was used for birthday parties. It's going to be awesome. The affordable housing, more affordable housing is great. mass timber is amazing thank you for answering that question um i am like slightly concerned but really i mean i agree that you know a lot of the building elements that we use in general are not the best but you have operable windows and i think flushing air out is a good concept it's fresh air and each unit will have that which is great um um the the aesthetic of the uh the frame and the infill i actually kind of like i saw the the previous design and i'm a fan of that one too i like both of them um but there were some parts of the frame and infill that i think need to be a little bit more consistent as well as the massing um and i think that's a little tricky with the slots and i know it's still early in the design phase and i think you're still working through that whole um You know, massing and aesthetic. I like the materials. I think that I was concerned with the GFRC being too light. But I think from the picture that is in the document, it does look darker than it renders. And for me, I personally like that. You know, that's just my taste. um i am concerned with the unloading and loading particularly like if you're traveling if you're turning right from walden street onto mass ave and you have a loading and a bus stop there and they're like parallel or you know if they're parallel and they're stacking and you have a bike lane that's a lot and that i say that as someone who bikes all the time and i'm familiar when buses are in my lane or or a moving truck and I have to go around. And then that intersection is tricky, but it's still early in the design. I'm excited to see where that goes. And I also just agree with Ted's comment about the bikes. and having ground access, that's a little easier. I'll say this, I said this is the last project, but I have a cargo bike. Just imagine yourself having a cargo bike and you have a lot of family units, which is great, but those things are not easy to move around. There's no way that's going to go up to the second floor, I don't think. At least mine, I don't think I can make it up there. But yeah, thank you.

Thank you, Diego. Mary, what are your thoughts?

Thank you. So the first reflects what I think a lot of people have said and that Ashley brought up again is Mass Ave and Walden Street. I'm really curious how those ultimately developed to reflect the vision in the North Mass Ave planning document. In particular, Walden, because Walden in that document is identified as a key connector linking over to Raymond. street Raymond street park or the Raymond park, which is about to be redone. And so I think I want to put a little heat on the city on this as well, that when this comes back, I think it would be really helpful for the planning board to understand what the city's vision is for that, that public realm space, because, um, It sounds like it really isn't the applicant's responsibility, but it's hard to respond to the edges without knowing. And of course, the job has been made harder because the street has been widened for vehicles, understandably so. But, you know, now... the city needs to show me how the Pine Village kids get with their, you know, the carts, the wide strollers up Walden Street to the playground. So that's just really encouraging that the city and the applicant work together so that maybe the planning board could see that kind of cohesive vision the next time around. And I think that might then naturally address, you know, some of my comments or questions, which are really similar to everyone else. It's really the facades along Mass Ave and Walden that, you know, and I'll maybe back up and say, I think it's a very elegantly well-designed building. I like the framing. I like the kind of double stack that, you know, to me breaks down the height. relative to what's going on. I also really like the colors. I like this kind of tan because there's so much brick, especially with carriage house across the street and the Russell Apartments next door. So I think it's a really elegant set, but the ground floor with say the community room, those can be tricky, right? Because when nothing's going on, I'm kind of curious, what does that look like? What does that feel like? Are the curtains mostly down? Your entry off Mass Ave is also set quite far back. And that kind of, you know, it doesn't feel like it's set far back because there's a public realm engagement experience. To me, it might kind of deadening, but I would think that maybe as the city is thinking about what they wanna do, you know, you all will be responding with your design to reflect that. So I'm just hopeful that can kind of come back together, especially on Walden since there are no street trees proposed and the planters against the building. It's kind of going against the complete street idea of having, you know, the pedestrian feel protected. So that's, again, really this kind of conduit between Mass Ave South that I'm curious about. Reflecting Ashley's idea about the roof gardens, great. I would wonder maybe next time seeing some sections to understand what size plants you would get. I think you're right on that it has to be something they can maintain, but also are we really getting trees up there or is it large shrubs, right? So maybe just making sure that what is represented is accurate to what you think could be accomplished up there. And Agreed, people will definitely be using it, but also thinking about shade protection if those trees don't become the canopy trees we want them to be, right? Way up on the roof for those kid parties. And then... Again, on kind of the city side, I'm still kind of unclear and curious about what the future of the surface parking lot is. So maybe that's just a future if it comes back and we get a little bit more clarity on the Mass Ave and Walden streetscape proposal, maybe a little bit more clarity on what that piece feels like, especially relative to kind of mitigating, you know, the proximity to Russell Street Apartments and the neighborhood. It feels like a kind of opportunity. lot and I'm just kind of curious about what what it could be used for especially I think Diego brought this up but you know not parking spaces but like well you didn't bring up this but like food deliveries that sort of thing if someone comes like DoorDash and needs to stop are they going to stop in the turn lane are they going to stop in the bus stop right there's not like a natural place at this corner unfortunately so thinking through how that would work, the kind of ride share, those kind of quick, they don't have a car, but they might need to get into a car situation. Great.

Thank you. Thank you. Dan.

Thank you, Madam Chair. So a smattering of comments and maybe a couple questions and maybe some challenges as well. So one thing I noticed from the rendering and kind of looking at the exterior facade is that the ground floor still feels a little squished. Looks from, I didn't have an exact dimension, but maybe 16 feet floor to floor, somewhere in that range. I'd love to see it a little squished. taller, letting it breathe a little bit. Potentially, it might be required anyway just to get the full clearance for the transformer room. Eversource is pretty strict about 15 feet clear, so that may help bump things up just a little bit. Staying on the facade a little bit, I do really like the double height frame. I've recently just come back from a trip to Barcelona and there are balconies everywhere. I'm thinking a little bit about whether the facade could get some recesses. The frame is really flat and It would be maybe nice to have some private outdoor space for some of these residents. The outdoor terrace is fantastic, but it's very centralized. And that strategy might be super helpful on the east facade where, of course, you've got some restrictions on openings. But I think there may be some potential expiration of Creating the opening as to the unit being deeper in if you're following me that there's you're treating the exterior is actually not the wall as a screen so. There may be some real opportunities on the on the east and west facades to get more opening and more. More light and air for those residents and. Kind of going back to the basement, I'm kind of saying this comes around particularly because of the bike parking. And maybe if you had half a basement and could handle just the bike parking, you'd get another unit. I hate to see a second floor bike parking where you could have a residential unit. So if that's really the driver, and Jason, I believe it entirely, it might be worth just a little bit extra cost to get one more unit. And I think that there may be some ways to solve the access of those bikes to the outside through the rear. I think to Ted's comment, and just looking at the plan again it looks like you could exit through the rear stairwell potentially but again if you're in the basement you're going to need to take advantage of an elevator in any case. I guess the last one was kind of a question around the laundry room. Putting it on the top floor is a little unusual and I didn't know whether that was driven by it being a kind of social connecting space and whether that was kind of tied to, hey, let's get people to be up there and maybe they'll use the outdoor amenity space. But, you know, that's also a beautiful view of downtown Boston from that side. So it's probably the nicest laundry room around. And I kind of question whether, you know, things went to the basement whether a laundry room needs to be that special. And maybe there's another way to get people to engage, again, just kind of looking at, hey, could you get another unit up there on that top floor? So I think that's pretty much it. Other than an observation, we're really trying to get fossil fuels out of buildings. And sometimes there's some ways of closing the corridor in such a way that you wouldn't need an emergency generator for your elevators. And maybe you could get rid of that rooftop emergency generator and fuel storage, which would be a plus. And as you well know, that roof space gets chewed up pretty fast with mechanical equipment. I think it's looking a little light. Anyway, that's it for me. Great job. Looking forward to seeing it again when you come back.

Thank you, Dan. Ted, let's hear from you.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I really like the plan. I think the facade looks great. I appreciate the double height framing. I think the building looks very sleek and very modern. I know the urban design people and their memo hearkened back to the earlier Plan and made some suggestions about that I actually think this is a much improved plan over the earlier one I think actually it's. It goes very well with the added height. And I think, you know, I think the height is appropriate for us getting the additional affordable units. I think that's the most important thing. The urban design also, I think, suggested maybe moving the green space on the roof to the uh southwestern uh corner uh i also disagree with that because i think um it's great that you'll be able to see it driving up and down mass ave as opposed to coming down huron which and i'm sorry not you're into coming down walden which goes over the bridge and then dips down and there are trees there. So I think that continuing to keep it in the northwest corner where people can see it on Mass Ave is the appropriate place for it. In addition to the comments of my colleagues, I think the first floor facade needs work. I think as transparent as it can be and as opening and as attractive to the many pedestrians who will be walking along Mass Ave, uh is something you really ought to think about but on the whole i really think it's an excellent design i'm very pleased with it thank you ted um

I think people have pretty much covered everything. I just want to say, yeah, I like the double stacked design as well. I don't, I understand, you know, Eric is also saying maybe kind of mix them up a little bit, the two different versions to see if you can make the facade, you know, that much more interesting and a little bit different. So it might make sense to just take a look at that. But there's something about the double stack that is very appealing. The rooftop garden, you know, that one, it was a really interesting comment, and I like the fact that you can see it coming up Mass Ave. But I also feel like this, and again, I know it's a completely different project, but in the earlier version, there was at least some green on that side of the building, the facade that faced the neighborhood. I think it might have been, you know, it at the top of the ground floor level. I think it would just be nice to take a look at that facade and just try to, wherever you can, try to soften it a little bit and make it a little more appealing visually to the neighborhood. And certainly, you know, depending on the outcome of what happens with that parking lot, you know, how that is all handled vis-a-vis the house that abuts that lot, et cetera, will be really, really important. But I think, you know, I've never been a big fan of buildings at that corner only because it's so hard to drive on that street. So I think, you know, I really do appreciate the fact that you mentioned You're working on the widening of Walden Street and that you pulled the building in. I think, you know, it's really a very handsome, handsome design and nice, nice looking building. I would also encourage you just, I know you've been working with the senior center folks and all of that and. I would just, you know, for whatever portion of the building overlooks their open space, it didn't look as though if that tree is saved that, you know, looking further up, it's not going to be as obvious. You'll have the tree breaking up the visual lines. But if for some reason we think that that tree is going to be in danger, it would be helpful to have some sort of a backup plan or whatever as to how to make that edge a little more user-friendly vis-a-vis the open space that the seniors use, I think, pretty pretty consistently. So that's all I have. I think very nice job, great presentation. And we didn't ask to see the model anymore. Did anybody want to take a look at it tonight? You can certainly bring it back the next time. Please do bring it back next time. Okay, but I think for tonight we're probably all set. Let me just turn to Jeff and Eric. Do you have everything from us that you need at this point?

I'm gonna look to Eric and see if he has anything to add and Becca can chime in if there's anything else that we might have missed.

Yeah, I think, I know this has been a great discussion and a lot of really good comments. I can see that I'm in the minority about really liking that earlier version of Assad and had the thought of perhaps combining some of that more punched window and wall sort of strategy with a frame and infill strategy. A nice example of that is the Broad strategy building on at the bend in in aim street which it really kind of helped break up the mass of it but say even leaving that aside one of the things i liked about the 2020 version was it's really rich with detail in terms of shadow and sort of articulation of the windows and so on and if you continue using only the frame and infill, could some of that detail be included in the infill panels or the way the fenestration is done and the joints between vertical and horizontal within that frame system? And I think I might have mentioned in the memo, should the vertical members of the frame and the horizontal members be different dimensions rather than equal-equal? would be something I think would be interesting to look at anyway. So you guys covered a whole lot of the comments, especially about the ground floor. I totally agree that Jason's nodding his head, yeah. And I think it could be wonderful, your idea of the elongated bricks. Sounds great. And you know, at the Ragon building, they used that stone from the Valls Quartz with very long strips, which is really quite beautiful. So anyway, yeah, thanks a lot for all your comments. And we're available to be worked with if you have any more questions. Thanks.

Well, and I know you guys will continue to work together, proponent and city. And, you know, I think, you know, even with the double frame height with board members liking that, I think, you know, to the extent that you can keep detail, you know, that's something that generally the board is supportive of too. So I encourage continued dialogue between you and the urban design staff as you move forward to... to the next design review down the road. All right, does the petitioner have any questions for us at this point or are you pretty clear on where we are?

I think we have a lot of great feedback and I think it's going to be helpful to get a report so that we can then fold that into the next time we're in front of you.

Perfect. Okay. Well then, okay, so I need a motion then to conclude the design consultation, which, oh, wait before I go there. Mary?

One more comment because Mary brought it to my attention and I hadn't looked at it as closely. That existing tree, or maybe it was Eric, next to the Russell Street Apartments, I would say next round, make sure you're know it looks like it's 10 feet from your building it's a little bit misrepresented one of the plans if they're going to lose it because it looks like you'd be shearing off basically half the tree i think figuring out that earlier and coming up with an approach to it would be better than um misrepresenting that we might you might be able to save it it seems very challenging to think of that staying but jason you have a yeah um i believe in the package

as an appendix, we included the report. Um, we hired a master arborist of which I think there's only like one or two in all state who we've worked with previously. He believes in an intellectually honest way that we can save that tree. Um, and he has come up with a detailed plan to save that. And it's in the, it's in the report. Um, I, I agree. I mean, when we did port landing on Harvard street, there were a number of arbor buddy type trees where, um, we ended up, putting in some pretty significant shoring. They survived, which was shocking to me, actually. And so, and you can drive by and see, it's between the BioMed building and ours at the rear, at Fort Lanning, and they're all there.

But that's like an upright in our variety.

I totally agree. This is a land, we agree. But he prescribes a very specific methodology for saving the tree. I think the key will be to have the contractor follow that methodology during construction and ensure it's really incumbent upon us to make sure that the contractor doesn't do things that would harm that tree. Because ultimately, I believe there is a plan that's viable, but we all know sometimes what contractors do. So I think it really is incumbent on us to make sure that it survives. I mean, even at Frost Terrace, there was a horse chestnut that we were very careful around.

actually designed partially designed the building around it and that tree is thriving right now so well maybe a different way to say it is on page nine your site plan there's a circle that is the tree that's not centered on the tree trunk in the survey and so i think one way you do it is you keep the true canopy and do it true size but cut off the part that gets cut off right because you might be able to save the tree But it also might be a tree that the apartment building next door feels like they didn't, that it was kind of mutilated. So it's just kind of that making sure that there's like a clear plan that just doesn't, it doesn't just live, but the community feels like it's what they want next to them. That's all. Yes. It's the experience.

Sure. Yeah, we can take over that.

Yeah. Thank you. Cool. Thank you.

Thanks. The tree is not, just to be clear though too, the tree is actually not on our property. So we are incumbent on trying to do everything possible to make sure it's not damaged.

Absolutely. Absolutely. But just, you know, sometimes it's like, you know, the roots are on your property. So you've obviously it's like, yeah. And the canopy is on your property. So it's like your neighbor shearing off half your tree and you're being like, what's on my property. But now it looks like a sheer tree. So just, just being kind of cognizant about that is kind of a quirky situation to manage.

Thanks. Okay. So we're going to move forward with a motion. This will be a vote for full board members only. So would one of the board members please make a motion to conclude this design consultation session and submit an initial report with our comments to the developer?

Is Ted so moved?

Thank you, Ted. And could I have a second, please?

Diego, second.

Thank you, Diego. And Jeff, could we now have a roll call vote?

On that motion, Ted Cohen? Yes. Mary Leydecker? Yes. Diego Macias? Yes. Ashley Tan? Yes. Carolyn Zern?

Yes.

Mary Flynn?

Yes.

It's all six members present voting in favor.

Thank you. So that concludes the business on our agenda. Are there any additional comments from staff at this point?

No, we will see you in two weeks for the public hearings that we mentioned.

I have a question for Beth. So we talk so much about transparency, and it seems to me of late that a lot of buildings that have large windows on the street level are covering the windows with full window decals. Is there anything in the sign ordinance or elsewhere in the ordinances of the city that controls how much they can cover?

Try to figure out how to address this without making it a whole other item of discussion on the agenda. Yes, the sign ordinance regulates the area of signage and you know, window signage or, you know, details within the window do fall under our sign ordinance. So I guess that's the simplest way to put it. And then there's, you know, what actually happens and, you know, that's maybe a whole other story.

So that's something that the building department would enforce if there were a violation?

Um, potentially I think, you know, we would, we would look at it if there were a, there were a complaint, um, you know, ISD would look at it and signage is one of those is an interesting area within the zoning where, um, our staff and CDD actually take some of the responsibility for reviewing for sign ordinance compliance. So, so our, our team might look at it too, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't, it would be something we look at on a case-by-case basis.

Thank you.

All right. Any other thoughts from the board members? Thank you all very much, both the proponents and my fellow planning board members and staff. I think it was a very successful and good discussion tonight. So thank you all, and we are adjourned. Good night.

Thank you. Good night. Thank you.