City Council - City Services and Innovation Technology Committee Hearing on Docket #1448

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For the record, my name is Enrique Pepén, District 5 City Councillor, and I'm the Chair of Boston City Council Committee on City Services and Innovation Technology. Today is October 2nd, 2025. The exact time is 10.07 a.m. This hearing is being recorded. It is also being live streamed at boston.gov slash city dash council dash tv and broadcast on Xfinity channel 8, RCN channel 82, Files channel 964. Written comments may be sent to the committee email at ccc.csit at boston.gov and will be made a part of the record and available to all councilors. Public testimony will be taken at the end of this hearing. Individuals will be called on in the order in which they signed up and will have two minutes to testify. If you're interested in testifying in person, please add your name to the sign up sheet near the entrance of the chamber. If you are looking to testify virtually, please email our central staff liaison shanepack at shane.pack at boston.gov for the link and your name will be added to the list. Today's hearing is on docket number 1448. Order for a hearing to explore same-day put-out and Pickup for Non-Containerized Residential Waste and Containerization for Commercial Trash. This matter was sponsored by Councillor Sharon Durkan, Councillor Gabriela Coletta Zapata, and Councillor President Ruti Louisian, and was referred to the committee on August 6, 2025. Today I'm joined by my colleagues in order of arrival, Councilor Aaron Murphy, Councilor Ed Flynn, and the sponsor of the docket, Councilor Sharon Durkan. Okay, so I'm going to pass it over to Councilor Durkan for opening remarks. I'll allow my council colleagues also for a brief opening statement and then we can continue with the presentation. Derrick, and the floor is yours.

Thank you so much, Chair. It's been lovely working with your team on this hearing. And thank you to my colleagues, our panelists, and members of the public for being here today. The way trash is managed in our city affects every Boston resident's daily life. In most of our dense neighborhoods, Back Bay, Beacon Hill, and parts of the Fenway and District 8, Residents rely on putting out trash in plastic bags. Too often, bags are set out before 5 p.m. and sit out on the sidewalk for more than 24 hours. By morning, many are torn open by rodents, scattering litter across our neighborhoods. The problem is acute in commercial districts too, like Cosway Street, Boylston Street, Newbury Street, Cambridge Street, and I know my District 2 colleague has a lot of commercial areas in his district as well, where people put out large volumes of business trash. So that was really the goal of today's hearing for me, was to talk about both commercial trash and residential trash, how to make it better. My proposal is to Move all residential trash, if it's put out in a plastic bag, to same day put out, meaning that you can't put it out at 5 p.m. the day before. We know, even from getting emails, the residents have a lot of questions about how that would work. We know Boston is facing a rodent influx, and the city's Rodent Action Plan makes it clear. Leaving out bags overnight is one of the largest drivers of infestations. While state law prohibits non-containerized trash, from being put out on our streets. The city does not enforce this ban. Because so many of our neighborhoods lack space for bins, we need practical, creative, and thoughtful solutions to improve trash management. We know that a lot of Beacon Hill The basement used to be a trash room. Now those have been converted to housing. So this is a unique issue. It's actually an issue as old as time, but it's also very new because we have even less space than we've ever had. We held a hearing on trash collection practices last year, and we look ahead to renewing the city's trash contracts. I filed today's hearing order to build on those conversations. For me, the ultimate goal is containerization. But we need to figure out the details of how to get there. In the meantime, I want to explore changes that could make an immediate impact. First, moving towards same-day put-out and pick-up for non-containerized residential waste. We know in Beacon Hill, That means potentially working with the trash companies to change the put out time. 6 a.m. for most people is a little too early, too. And we also know that While you have to be ready at 6 a.m., you might also have your trash picked up at 11 a.m. or 12 p.m., as I've experienced. And second, requiring commercial trash, especially food waste, to be secured in containers rather than left in bags. We need to make changes to improve public health, reduce rodent activity, and make our streets cleaner and safer. I look forward to this conversation. And I just want to say as an aside to all of this, when I moved to Beacon Hill 10 years ago, I remember that thicker trash bags were at the Whole Foods. They were at CVS. Now you can't find thicker trash bags. I think the city needs to work with local businesses and retailers that are selling trash bags in our most dense neighborhoods. require them to sell thicker trash bags. And maybe that's through conversation. Maybe that's through ordinance. I don't know how we do that. But I think it's really important that thicker trash bags are actually available and that we do a public awareness campaign obviously putting out trash in in paper bags and putting out trash directly on the street, which we're seeing specifically where I live on the North Slope, is absolutely disgusting and not acceptable. So I have been working with the Beacon Hill Civic Association, Neighborhood Association of the Back Bay, a lot of our civic groups to talk through how we make those changes and how we make those communications happen. But excited to partner with you all to make that happen. And I do know there's a working group of constituents that are from across the city that are working on these rat issues and excited to hear what they're thinking about as well. So thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Murphy.

Thank you. I love this conversation. Tell it every time that I live near apartment buildings. And at 5 o'clock, the pickup truck comes. They have some management company. They fill up the back of the pickup truck and no lie, a pile higher than me sitting here of just small, thin kitchen trash bags are put out of five and sometimes the trash isn't picked up, you know, You know this, right? This is our life. But it's allowed, and that's how we put our trash out. So this conversation, I'm looking forward to your response. You know what you feel like how we can make it better because we can change policy we can try to make new laws but it's gonna come down I think to like human behavior and we often talk and I've been on many rat walks and conversations with all of you and you can have a whole street and everyone doing the right thing and it only takes like one neighbor and that could just you know make the whole street An issue when it comes to rats and other public health issues. I've walked down the north end on a day where the trash hasn't come yet. It's not pretty, but I mean, we're a city and we have to, trash isn't always, Thank you. Thank you. You've said this before, too, that it costs a lot of money. And it's a lot of money to pick up our trash. And if we're to make more pickup days or have more contracts with different companies to have different times and Expect change that we're going to have to also be willing to invest in the money it's going to cost. So thank you for being here and looking forward to working with you guys. Thanks, Henry.

Thank you, Councilor. Well, I recognize that we've been joined by Council President Richard Louis-Jean. We're doing opening statements. Okay, Councilor Flynn, the floor is yours.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The City of Boston has a large rodent crisis with trash exposure. have proven as the single greatest issue. District Councilors know well what's getting worse from the calls we receive every day. The walkthroughs I do in neighborhoods across District 2 have increased significantly. I also want to acknowledge John Elrick and his team for the important work they are doing and for joining me on many of these walks. We see residents not disposing of trash properly. Neighbors are pleading for bait boxes, proper containerization, and composting to separate food and not allow rats to have a food source. We talked about this yesterday, composting. Our pest control crisis poses serious public health concern to the residents of Boston. A Tufts University study released in April found that rats in Boston are spreading a potentially deadly disease that can in rare cases cause serious complications such as multiple organ failure and death. This is a public health crisis. Since 2020, I have called for hearings to discuss pest control, relating to many issues across the city. I met with the New York City RATSAR. I filed for ordinance creating an office of pest control. docket 0262, 67, 82, and 0369. The author of the 2024 Rodent Action Plan, which I made many recommendations. support a centralized office. Creating a centralized office of pest control will streamline services while developing and implementing short and long-term integrated pest management plans for individual neighborhoods. This office would test different pest control strategies, coordinate and track overall progress, roll out trash containerization, conduct outreach to residents on rodent mitigation methods. New York City has made progress with improved inspection response times and decreased free one-run complaints and through a number of other initiatives including trash containerization. Well, the Boston Rodent Action Plan from last year outlined positive steps to address our pest control crisis. In my opinion, the plan falls short. It is time for the city to require and enforce containerization trash. Public barrels on commercial streets are helpful, but make no mistake, we also need a massive public awareness campaign to every resident and business about the proper way to dispose of trash and food. In my neighborhood of Chinatown, it's also a troubling situation. I see almost every day of how trash is put out. and the number of rats running throughout Chinatown and seagulls going through bags, picking out food. We need trash containerization, strict enforcement, composting, language access, Public Education is a critical piece to support our immigrant neighbors so that we all understand the issues and the roles. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Councillor Flynn. Councillor Louie-Jean.

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. And I want to thank my colleague, Councilor Durkan, for filing this and putting it forward. I think it's incredibly important that we continue to work on this issue. And I want to thank Everyone who is here from the administration for all of the work that you do to make sure that our residents believe that we care about them. I think that's why it's so important for us to really address issues of trash and make people feel good about the neighbors that they live in. I always say that the first thing that I did as a city councilor was get a trash can on Warren Street in an area where residents were experiencing a lot of litter and debris. I think that it's really... It's important that we explore the ideas of what Same day trash pickup could look like. I think that it's a contractual issue. So to the extent that we're going to talk about what the contracts allow us to do, I know that when I was with the meeting with the Beacon Hill Civic Association, they were talking about the work that Councilor Durkan We were talking about possibilities, and I don't know if I mentioned this to you yet, John, but there are some companies that use trash bags that are laced with mint to help discourage rodents from picking at them. We're obviously rolling out. More of the rodent-resistant trash cans which have been a proven method in which this council added money to the budget to do just that. But I think that this is an important conversation for us to also think about what could it look like in the Article 80 process. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Madam President.

Okay, so at this time, we are going to introduce today's panelist. We have with us Luke Hines, who is a Special Project Manager. We have John Ulrich, who is the Assistant Commissioner of Environmental Services. And we have Dennis Roach, Superintendent for Waste Reduction. The floor is yours.

Do we have the slides up? Mr. Chairman, do you have the ability to put the slides on the screen?

Give us a second.

Sure.

Sorry about that.

You're good. Thank you.

We could wait until we have the presentation. Brief recess? We're going to go into a very brief recess. Okay, we are officially back. Okay, the panelists, the floor is yours for the presentation.

Good morning, Councillors. John Ulrich, I'm the Assistant Commissioner of Environmental Services at ISD. I'm also the Chair of the Boston Road and Action Plan. With me today is Luke Hines from the Operations Cabinet, who coordinates BRAP. For the Mayor's Office and Dennis Roach, Superintendent of Waste Reduction at DPW. Mayor Wu launched the Boston Rodent Action Plan last year with the goal of measurably reducing rodent activity across the city. Next slide. BRAP, as we call it, is a coordinated citywide effort where departments are working together, sharing resources to tackle rodent activity in a unified way. Some of the steps that we're taking, we're using new technology. We have saw traps in the North End and Back Bay. We have rodent resistant barrels. on the streets and in parks and we're working to improve trash operations including exploring compactors instead of open dumpsters. Deploying sensors in parks, public alleys, and public housing, collecting data to be data-driven in our efforts, expanding resident education through our walkthroughs, webinars, and our awareness campaign. moving towards a proactive solution instead of reacting after the fact. Next slide. We have multiple subcommittees at BRAP to address different focus points. Rodent mitigation pilot and data is one. So we're analyzing the results and we'll file a report with the successes of the data and the different challenges of these new technologies. Trash collection and policy improvements. Dennis will speak more about this, but we're working with the Harvard Kennedy School on collecting recommendations and working with the doing outreach and community engagement so that we can make recommendations for future trash contracts. Our communication and awareness campaign, educating residents on BRAP initiatives and how they can reduce rodent activity, and we'll do that across the city on the MBTA and on trash barrels. External stakeholder collaboration. We'll be working with outside agencies like our state partners, universities, and utility companies to strengthen cross-sector solutions With that said, I'll turn it over to Dennis for the next slide to talk about trash.

Thank you, John. Dennis Roach, Superintendent of Waste Reduction for Boston Public Works. In my role, I oversee a team at waste reduction, which is basically responsible for the on-street trash operation out in the field. Most of you guys see it as capital waste trucks that roam the city picking up trash. We have other programs such as mattresses and food waste and such. I also oversee the code enforcement team. and the code enforcement team is the enforcement of most trash regulations across the city whether it be residential or commercial and I oversee a zero waste team which is focusing on and many more. We have pilot programs and trying new initiatives, policy and also educational outreach across the city as it relates and that's the the gist of my department within Public Works. We don't play a major role in terms of commercial trash. Commercial trash is kind of separated from the residential trash other than the code enforcement and the enforcement of of Commercial Trash. We're out there writing violations on commercial businesses that aren't storing or handling their trash properly. Want to talk a little about the city in Boston. It's basically being a perfect storm for rats. Boston is a city with entirely old infrastructure. and many more. We have very little underground space as one of the councilors mentioned. A lot of the old Basements have been converted into either condos or apartments and people have given up their trash storage spaces over the last You know 30 40 years was in the Back Bay just recently Dealing with a trash issue. We deal with them almost daily about residents fighting about how trash is stored where trash is stored and It's become a major issue because of the lack of storage inside for trash and how residents are now putting it outside, whether it be containerized or not containerized. This has clearly led to the infestation of rats, especially in the high dense urban neighborhoods of the city. The historic infrastructure, the sewer systems, you know, John can answer plenty of questions on that later, but just how we handle traction in the city hasn't evolved. We've certainly looked at other cities, been watching other cities and how they handle trash A lot of cities are completely different from Boston, but they can certainly give us some key ideas and concepts and things to kind of try and pilot. And I think I've had conversations with pretty much every councilor that's in this room about how we handle trash more effectively and more efficiently in Boston. and I'll get a little into that as I kind of because this is really important to explain how we do trash now and why we do trash the way we do it. Current collection operations with Capital Waste who picks up both our trash and our single stream recycling. Trash typically begins at 6am every morning. Wraps up hopefully by about 4pm. That's about how we handle trash right now. The way it's designed, and it's designed with both fiscal and operational efficiency in mind, is we often go into one neighborhood with trash trucks. Service that entire neighborhood, hopefully we're done by 11 a.m. Takes the trucks maybe an hour, an hour and a half to go north or south, wherever they're located, to dump and get rid of all the debris from that truck and dump that site. and then they roll back into a second neighborhood in the afternoon. So hopefully starting that second neighborhood 1230-ish and then you're done by four o'clock. That's done with, like I said, the thought of being very fiscally responsible of the city and very operationally efficient. It causes some problems because trash can often be left out in the streets in certain neighborhoods for longer periods of time. Probably about five years ago, the trash collection time was changed from a 7 a.m. start to a 6 a.m. start. I think a lot of it was done for reasons of becoming more efficient. The less a trash truck has to deal with traffic and residents roaming the streets and bicycles and everything we're dealing with in today's urban environment, the better off and the quicker we can come about picking up trash and the thing. It also had to do with mine for those afternoon districts so we can keep them more efficient about getting their trash a little bit off the street a little quicker. So that's why that was changed. I'd say that was probably the biggest single factor in causing issues with downtown residents. They were less able to put out their trash in the morning. More of them had to go and choose to put it overnight because of that hour shift. That's caused a big disruption in our neighborhood on their end. I think if you look at the afternoon districts, they're probably a little happier with it, right? Like, hey, my trash is picked up a little earlier now or something of that nature. But that's kind of the reasoning behind why it was done. We've been working with all these downtown districts about how we can potentially change that. What are some of the solutions for that? What other cities have done? It probably means giving up some of our fiscal responsibility and our operational efficiency, but some cities decide to pick up urban cities like this. and what's called the One Load Model, where we just have more trucks, more resources, and we go into every neighborhood and so the two neighborhood approach goes in all at once for the urban downtown districts and you finish everything in one load. And basically what that comes down to is it comes down to more trucks, more people, Larger contracts, and that's basically how you do it. It should certainly be the goal of the Boston Right Action Committee. The primary goal around trash in the Boston Right Action Committee is keeping trash off the street. for less amount of time, especially non-containerized trash, right? Especially non-containerized trash. Many of you guys have probably seen in New York City, they set up different rules where ground containerization was mandatory. One of the first steps they took was you had to have your trash containerized if you would leave it on the street overnight. It could come out in the morning, at a certain time in bags, but it had to be left overnight. It should be a model we're looking at in order to do that. We are going to have to change the trash contracts. We pick up and slightly push back that pickup time to give residents a little bit more of a window to put their trash out in the morning. But we have to really cognizant of that afternoon route and not really impacting and affecting them. So whether that be the one load model or more trucks that and so on. It's very important how we do that and how we think about that. So this is just some containerization models. I think containerization is incredibly important. This slide shows that the trucks we use, which is the top left, the rail loading truck, All urban neighborhoods use it. We don't have arm trucks. We have a couple of arm trucks, I think, in Hyde Park that service recycling. But arm trucks, they can't be done in certain neighborhoods that have on-street parking issues. We can't do containerization, all those types of things. So we are a very labor-intensive trash market. Most cities are. Northeastern cities for sure. One of those trucks usually takes two people, one on the back, one driving to man it. Very high cost. You see some of the containerization that we have across the city. We have food waste containers. The one in the middle with the gray containers, the thing is a new BHA pilot. We're looking to clean up some trash issues in the BHA. But this city should be moving more towards containerization and adoption of containerization. I'm not sure many people know this, but containerization is actually a state law. It's a state law. You have to containerize your trash, whether it be commercial, whether it be residential. Boston has chosen not to enforce it for many reasons. And most of them are surrounding that We can't even service trash in the streets in certain neighborhoods if it's containerized. And the reason is if you're in the Beacon Hill or the North End, our trucks can't pull containers between parked cars. like you can in other neighborhoods. Or residents can't store containers like you can in other neighborhoods. So the city of Boston has taken a holistic approach for probably 30 years of containerization. It's like, well, if we can't Let people in North End do it and we can't let people in Beacon Hill do it, then we shouldn't enforce it citywide. I think we should think about changing that approach. I think that people that can have containers should be made to have containers. right and people that you know and the people that don't have containers we should find options where they keep trash out in the street for a lot less amount of time and I think that's you know I think that's where we're at the crossroad with the Boston Red Action Plan and I know we mentioned that We're currently working with a consultant now. That is looking at options for us in urban neighborhoods, especially dense urban neighborhoods that is looking for things models that we can to bid out We do have contracts that run through June 30, 2027, all trash contracts that they bid out two years in advance. We will have a next model of contract to bid out this January for downtown neighborhoods. But it's going to be a decision point for the city because they are certainly going to be much more costly. So that's kind of where we kind of land there. Next slide, please. Some of these community Some containers that you've seen probably across the country. You see these underground storage tanks that really aren't an option for Boston. and so on. We have a lot of community bins because we don't have underground capabilities here. We have utilities lining our entire streets. There's nowhere to go underground. Community bins, they cause a lot of more issues than they do anything else. Whether they're being flooded with commercial trash, whether they're often being flooded with trash, residents bringing trash from outside jurisdictions that charge for the trash. They flood the city with trash, which happens no matter where you host your trash bins. But these are all untested models. Other cities are testing them. We're watching extremely closely. Nobody's presented any level of success with these yet. Next slide. Containerization, I touched a lot about this, so I'll kind of go through this really quickly, but containerization becomes about a lot of different questions, right? When you mandate containerization, It becomes an equity issue. It becomes about who pays for the bin, how do you pay for the bin. We certainly provide recycling bins to every resident that wants them in the city. Very costly program. Providing trash bins, if that becomes an option, again, just more dollars flowing that way. Containerization also brings unintended consequences. Most containerization starts to talk about waste limits. When you talk about what you can put on the sidewalk, it has to fit in the container. Boston has a full service trash model. Anything that's not banned by MassVEP to be in our trash stream, we'll take. You put it on the sidewalk, we'll end up taking it. Most cities have completely moved away from this model. They have... Waste Limits. They have containerization measures. Most cities are charging fees for their trash. They're charging per bin. That's why they have more robust trash systems and have more resources and things like that. They're charging, just for instance, the City of Toronto, we met with them yesterday. They charge an annual fee by the bin size that you have. So if you want a 96-gallon trash bin, they're going to charge you X amount. If you want a 65-gallon trash bin, they're going to charge you X amount annually. 35-gallon. Part of that is to start shrinking your waste footprint. They want you to start choosing the lower model of containerization and start putting it out less. They're thinking more about zero waste and getting residents to think about what they consume before they actually dispose of it. Boston's just been that one model. It's like, you put it on the street as long as it's not banned by the DP to be in our trash stream, We're going to come get it. So when you do think containerization, you have to remember that it does start to mandate waste limits in what we do along those lines. I think that's it. I mean, I think containerization in urban neighborhoods, I kind of touched on it, but there's a few things we talk about when we talk about pushing back trash times and we talk about Mandating some containerization, but it's letting go of parking spaces sometimes is often an effect. The later you push back start times, The more impactful trash trucks have on residents' lives in other ways in terms of like traffic and getting away of school buses and just dealing with tourism and especially the North End. We try to get out of the north end by 10 o'clock because the streets are flooded with people by that time and having trash trucks in those neighborhoods extremely inefficient for our operation but can be a little dangerous too when you're walking around the streets and those tight corners and trash trucks rolling around. I hope I shared a good synopsis of how we handle trash. And I think all of us are kind of, as I pass it on to Luke, all of us are here to answer any questions that you guys may have. And I know I didn't touch upon it, but real quickly, I should say it, but enforcement is a big part of trash, and the code enforcement team, a very small team who would do a wonderful job enforcing our trash laws, extremely important service to the residents of the city of Boston. I'm happy to answer any questions along that as well.

Yeah, I would just quickly on the next couple of slides here just highlight some of the community process that Councilor Durkan referred to in her opening remarks. So as Dennis mentioned, right now we're kind of in this stage of getting as much feedback and research as we can from We've held two focus group sessions. We have a group of constituents from across the city. who are advising us on more specific feedback related to trash collection processes. We've also held broader community meetings. So we had a community meeting early August where It was more of a listening session where folks, it was a public meeting where folks really provided their feedback. We analyzed that feedback and then produced a comment report and analyzed that also with the focus group. We're going to be doing another round of these meetings in the upcoming weeks. So we have another public meeting on October 16, which everybody across the city is invited to. and then we'll be doing a couple of more focus groups to really go more in depth on some of this feedback that we've been exploring. Some of the themes that we've heard are some of the things that Dennis mentioned in his comments, but it's improving trash pickup times, trying to get bags off the streets in different neighborhoods, really trying to educate residents. We're looking at all of these recommendations and really trying to hear what community wants us to see before making any changes to the trash contract. Similarly, we're working on the next slide. with a class over at Harvard Kennedy School who's doing an independent research proposal for us, who's also talking to community, asking more specific questions around some of the trade-offs that potentially could happen with any changes we make to the trash contract That class is doing this work over the course of this semester and then we'll produce a similar report which we'll look at as a BRAC leadership team and also with Dennis and his team. to see if there's any changes that we would like to make and implement into the upcoming trash contract. Some of the questions you could see highlighted on the slide here, but it's really asking residents feedback on things like, You know, paying for containerization models, some of the trade-offs in terms of loss of parking. So we're looking forward to that report at the end of the semester and definitely will highlight that and share that with you all if you're interested. And just some next steps on the next slide here is we're hosting the Harvard students over the course of this semester to answer any questions they have, really guide their work. We're going to be doing some site visits to different locations where we have different BRAP technology and also some of the challenges we're starting actually Next week in District 2 in Chinatown to highlight some of the challenges with trash collection in dense neighborhoods. So that's very exciting. As I mentioned we have some upcoming community meetings and then finally we'll be looking forward to that report that will come from the students at the end of the semester. Just to close out the presentation, we wanted to just highlight on the next slide some of the continued progress at the BHA. So John and I were here a couple of weeks back to talk about the extra sense rodent detection cameras that are going in at Ruth Barkley. We're also going to be rolling out new containerization at the Commonwealth location in Brighton and Alston. And so the RFP process is closed. We're doing an evaluation on some of the people that have submitted their proposals. And we look forward to rolling out the cameras to collect baseline data and then the new containerization model in the weeks to come so that we can show the impact of doing containerization and how it decreases rodent activity. And just finally, just wanted to thank you all for your time and as Dennis mentioned,

Thank you so much to the three of you for just being here and the work that you all do and for that very helpful presentation to Get a glimpse of what opportunities we may have or what we've tried, etc. So I'm excited to ask some questions. Let's get into that. All right, I'm gonna start off with the lead sponsor, Councilor Durkan. I'm gonna give everyone about six minutes and then we'll go like that.

Perfect. And I didn't know I would end up brain melding with Dennis, but I agreed with so much of what you said. I think I've been talking to you too much. So really, really grateful for the work that you all are doing. I think as we talked about, public works regulations instruct residents to place their trash out Well, essentially, you can put out your trash at 5 p.m. We want people to have their trash out on the streets less time. I know in places like the Back Bay, if they're picking up That means the trash has been on the street for quite a bit of time. I know it might be unpopular among residents to have folks wake up really early in the morning How confident are we that we could in this next contract? And are you thinking about in this next contract a policy shift? and so on. And then on top of that, with ballooning contracts, Has the city thought about breaking this into smaller contracts and potentially taking over the trash work again with our own? I know how expensive, I mean, we've gone into this, but I know how expensive the trucks are. The mayor and I have talked privately about how I just feel like with both snow removal and with trash. This is kind of like insurmountable in a way if like this continues to balloon. And I do think that these companies should be on their toes for us to invent our own solution to our trash issue. So I'm just curious if you're thinking about that, And as you're thinking about this next contract, where obviously we've talked about this, recycling is no longer profitable for us in any way. It's a drain on our resources. Sort of what's the plan as we head? And knowing that there's only certain tweaks we can make given how expensive these contracts are.

Yeah, so you're correct that the cost of trash and recycling has really ballooned, definitely through the inflationary years of the COVID pandemic. It had a direct impact on costs. We realized that last year when we had a $15 million surge in our trash collection contract alone. We still haven't realized the increase to our disposal contract where the trash ends up because those contracts ran through COVID and we're still in those particular contracts now that last another year and a half. We will definitely realize an increase in that. But as for you saying, what are we thinking about changes? I think this Boston Road in Action Plan has gotten us thinking and out in the community more and listening to what the community wants. And I think we've heard loud and clear that what we need to do through the Boston Road and Action Plan is try to find ways to keep trash on the street for less amount of time. We have to figure that out. We have to figure out how we can containerize in certain neighborhoods where we can containerize and what policies we put in place in neighborhoods that we can't. So we're working with a consultant now. That is helping us, guide us through all these things. That's going to give us the next level of trash contract that's going to allow at least the city to look at those options. And those options will be to delay trash pickup. To allow residents a little bit more of a window to put trash out in the morning. I'm not sure we can go to the extreme where we're picking it up at 8.30, 9, 10 o'clock or starting our collection. I don't think that's probably fiscally feasible, operationally feasible. But if we can create more of a window, I think at least these bids are going to give us the sense of what it will cost to do that.

And some of the solutions or potential things that other cities are thinking about, like mandating containerization waste limits and cities charging per bin are really I know representing an area with a lot of students, a lot of young people, September 1, the streets are I mean it's atrocious just the the turnover and putting your whole entire apartment on the street and the idea that that costs zero dollars for all of those folks that are and many more. As a city official, it does not seem like something we can continue to allow. also just in terms of sustainability and the environment getting new furniture every time you move is just not something that we should be as a city promoting and how I know we don't have everyone from the administration here, but what type of political capital is the administration willing to use to move in a sustainable way and actually take some of these issues head on that may be unpopular?

Yeah, I mean, I think when other cities have attacked this, it costs a lot of money up front, investments up front to think through these problems. And I think that's what Boston needs to be considering is I'm giving a grander example in New York because New York is a lot bigger than Boston. When New York did their containerization study, it was a $5 million study just for the study alone. like so that's just the grand scale the investment that they did that that gave them a document to start implementing policy that's what that gave them so I think the city needs to think along the lines of like investing in trash and We certainly made a step in that right direction about two years ago, maybe two years ago now. The City and the Council approved a position of Director of Policy, Planning and Waste, one of the first of its kind, that's like literally allowing us to look at these problems now in smaller ways and probably not in the grander ways that we're talking about now about Charging Residence or those types of things but start to think about these these national containerization models like we've never been able to do that before until we have this this very important position and we've been doing that for the last two years and that's why we're able to present some of these things that other cities are doing is we've been really taking a hard look at these things but it's more in front investments and you know I hate to use the word studies because they often lead to little or nothing but to make major investments as to how the city can kind of change its trash for the future because we're certainly at Public Works screaming on the top of the hill that the cost of trash and the cost of everything and the way we do in the city and many more. There's few waste-to-energy sites. They're old infrastructure.

And recycling is no longer profitable.

Yeah. I'm not willing to go there. It's certainly less profitable. Just for an example, when we dispose of trash, it roughly costs us about $110 a ton to dispose of it. When we dispose of recycling, right now it's costing us about $73 a ton. So there's a spread there. There's a spread where it's profitable. Now, how much of that profit is eaten up by having the extra trucks, the extra bodies, the extra thing, picking it up? It's not what it used to be. When we first started single stream and cycling, they were paying us for the tunch. They were paying us $30, $40 a ton to get rid of it. Those markets have dried up. They no longer exist. We are now paying it. We're paying at a lesser rate than trash, so I still think it's a worthwhile endeavor, and it's saving us money somewhere, but it's not what it used to be. It's still very costly. That continues to go up. That's a fluctuable rate. Last year we were paying $50 a ton. Now we're paying $73 a ton.

And I know I'm out of time, but I just wanted to quickly ask if... We were to make this policy change, how would this policy change happen? Like if same day, put out and pick up, obviously there's some contracts that need to be reconciled. But is this an ordinance? Is this the administration just waving a wand and saying these are now the rules?

This is a trash set out is at the discretion of the public waste commissioner and how the policies we set as long as we follow state sanitation code. So we would be able to put that in place We would just need to have the contracts in place and accept the costs that's associated with the different contracts. The later you pick it up in the morning or switching to a one load model, it's going to be about dollars. and we are going to bid them out to give us some options. It's going to be about accepting those particular options.

Okay. Thank you so much. I'll give this back to the chair. I would love a second round if that's possible.

Absolutely. Thank you. I'm going to go in order of co-sponsors first and then by order of attendance. So I'm going to go with Council, President Louijeune, and then we'll go Councilor Murphy and Councilor Flynn.

Thank you. Good morning. Thanks again for so many of your responses. I didn't hear about collapsible waste bins. Is that something that's been researched and looked into?

Yeah, we piloted them back in the south end maybe about four years ago now and ran maybe a three-month pilot. and so on. They were not very successful. They're not rodent proof at all. They eat through them almost immediately. Residents didn't like them. Trash guys didn't like them. Bringing them from the curb to the thing. So I think by mid-pilot, We pilot on two streets. I think almost 80% of the people weren't even using them anymore. They didn't help with litter. A lot of them have zippers on the top, so unless you zip them, they don't really hold the trash all that well, and they start to collapse and all those things. We can't unzip every single one as we go around and collect 70,000 households a day so they just it just wasn't very successful in the small pilot we ran in the south end.

And are there different models for what collapsible like We used one kind of collapsible trash can. Are there different models?

I haven't seen other. I mean, I've seen this model and variations in brands of this model, but I haven't seen anything else than what we used out there.

Okay, you talked about the loss of parking as like, Something that we're potentially looking at and reviewing. What would that be for?

Well, I think it's really meant in terms of some cities have decided in high urban dense areas that you have a community bin. and you give up a parking space on a block and then everybody has to walk their trash to that community bin and no one goes curbside. It just goes to this one community bin. So they give up the parking space of that. New York's piloting a model like that. They're being very quiet on it. I don't think it's successful at all. I think people hate it. Those community bins tend to attract commercial trash They tend to attract trash from outside the city, just people dumping on top of them. So that's what I meant in that sense. In another sense, it also meant to be If you really want to get more efficient with trash collection and think of things the other way is how we do street cleaning. We don't allow people to park on the streets, so we clean the streets. and this model is where you don't allow people to pack on trash day so it allows for a very efficient operation to go up and down the street which could allow for some more containerization in urban neighborhoods maybe not the resident that can't fit a bin in their unit, But for the resident, they could fit it a bit in their unit, but we can't collect it because the cars are parked so closely. We can't pull the unit between cars. So you can give up parking that way. It's like no parking on trash day on the streets and stuff like that. So that's what some of the- What neighborhoods would that be? You know, you think Beacon Hill, you think the North End, probably a lot of streets in the South End, possibly some areas of Chinatown and those areas. Mostly it's really dense. commercially zoned districts that have parking issues.

Right, but then trash in a lot of those neighbors right now isn't being containerized. But you're saying like if we were to, you know, because I didn't understand why we were exploring parking, like the loss of parking. for the community trash bins.

We're not exploring it, we're just identifying it as an issue. There's no exploration at all.

Especially if the models, I think there's a lot of probably collective action problems too with a community.

We're trying to solve the problem knowing that we can't take away any parking. That's how we're trying to go about it.

But it's interesting because if you talk about Could it be a culture shift of no parking between 6 and 10 a.m., right? Not all day no parking, but in the morning of trash day for particular neighborhoods.

It certainly would make trash more efficient. It'd certainly make us be able to clean routes and streets quicker. Keeps trash on the streets a lot less amount of time. and it would certainly be less costly because the less you have the truck on the street the cheaper it gets like that's just would it be possible to coordinate that day with the street cleaning day such that

Yeah, I mean, so... You don't have to, it's not like two days a week.

That's probably a question that I have to ask other people in public works about how that coordination could be done, but street cleaning... All of that isn't done as much as trash. There's two days a week downtown that would have to do it now. Street cleaning is also done seasonally, so now we're talking about no parking year round in those districts if it was on trash day.

Right, and there are some neighborhoods, is it Roxbury in downtown that it's twice a week?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay. Have we looked into the trash bags or heard about the companies that have been that lays their trash bags with mint as an approach to deter rodent traffic?

We haven't, but everything I know about them, it's not successful. It's not an effective solution. Thicker bags might work a little better, but rodents are persistent.

We do have a minimum requirement of bag that should be on the curb. Much like containerization, it hasn't been enforced. What people put on the curb is your white Thank you for joining us. And like Councilor said, I think The supermarkets are only selling those kitchen bags now because that's what's in demand. That's what people want. They want to fill their kitchen container, pack it up, and just put it on the street instead of putting in that large green bag. So if you go over to any of those neighborhoods, it's all white bags that they've just eaten through in seconds. and not even Eaton through. Even when you're dragging it down your stairs, it develops that hole that eventually it's just spilling all over the place. And we just as a city have not chosen to enforce thicker bags. I've certainly had neighbors that have come to me as neighborhood captains and say, hey, we're telling people in our block, use the thicker ones. And it's made a little bit of an impact. They've said it's helped in some ways.

Thank you, Superintendent. Can you describe what are those thicker bags?

It's more the green bag versus the white bag that you see. The hefty, durable bag is what we more technically require as a But the kitchen bag is the one that fits inside a liner to your little kitchen thing.

Yeah, so I live in Hyde Park. I'm just not familiar with the green bag and just wanted to uplift it so that folks know that that is technically what we are working on.

The specification on our website, it's a two-ply bag. 0.9 milliliter bag is the actual specification. I can kind of send them over to you. But that's what we recommend. Like I said, it's not going to change the world, but it's going to make It's going to make a difference. It's going to make a difference with litter. It's going to make a difference with some rats.

Well, I know I think it's telling that you've said even on your street, you've noticed even a slight difference.

Yeah, that was actually in the back bay. Neighborhood captains over there have told us they've made some of those changes, and it's made a difference. Like I said, I think a lot of the times it becomes about when you're dragging it out, it pokes holes. The less quality of a bag, the more, you know, litter and everything else that you can kind of, and we've noticed, it's just, and I get it because people's apartments are small. They want to put their white kitchen litter bag inside their basket, pick it up, go, and just put it right in the curbs. and it's that's all we see is white bags in these neighborhoods for the most part.

But I think if people couldn't like I mean you take the white bag you put it in the in the two-ply green bag I think there's probably Some more. I mean, maybe it's because I live in, I'm able to containerize my trash.

Agreed.

But if people know that you can still take it out of your kitchen.

Yep.

and Dubbin and just put, just plop that bag in another bag and bring that out.

I agree and I think if the demand started to be there, I think the supermarkets would start, I think the supermarkets stopped carrying them because they have less shelf space in the smaller supermarkets and they just respond to what people are demanding.

Thank you. Well, I think it'd be good to probably do an education campaign. I have a few more questions, but I'll wait my time. Just wanted to say thank you for all the work you're doing. Got a text from a constituent who said, the city's graphics are top notch, so they must be watching.

Thank you. Paul Murphy, the floor is yours.

Thank you. Thank you for your presentation and bringing the knowledge that you always do, being able to answer the questions. A few things. One is these construction bags are not the ones like they're not the construction big box you buy at Home Depot. It's the old green ones.

Yeah, I mean, obviously, those construction bags are even thicker than the normal, hefty, regular trash green bag. But we do the regular hefty one, the 0.9 milliliter two-ply is the one. That's our minimum standard that's not being met in the street these days.

I'm hearing a lot about... Not following and not enforcing. And if you could just speak to why we're legally allowed to not follow what the state is requiring.

I just think it's been past practice for probably as long as I can remember. I think the city always looked in treating neighborhoods the same way. neighborhoods that can't containerize. We've never enforced it there because trash trucks can't pick them up when they containerize. There's certain issues there. So they've looked to other neighborhoods like Alston Brighton or wherever in High Park or West Roxbury or Roslindale or wherever and said, how can we write you a ticket if we're not writing other people tickets? And I think that's just been the past practice. And I think I stated earlier, I go, We start to think about neighborhoods a little differently when you have the resources to put it out.

We just went through outdoor dining. Yes, people get upset, but at the end of the day, if the facts show that if you're able to Containerize. You should have to containerize.

And I have to add a very important fact to that, too, is our code enforcement team that enforces trash regulations, they're a team of 17 people. That cover pretty much 24-7 on three shifts plus whatever overtime they need to cover. It's a very thin team. Enforcing containerization would need many, many more resources.

That was going to be my question. What would it look like?

and you've already kind of touched on we don't we're not staffed and ready to do that but what would we need to do to it would be it would it would definitely be beefing up the enforcement team I mean it starts it all starts with changing residents behavior and I think a lot of I think one of the biggest challenges Boston has is we're such a transient city, as soon as we educate people, the city picks up and moves away. And then you're doing it again and again and again and again. So that's one of the issues we have, but it starts Code enforcement has a saying that I've loved ever since I was told it. It's like enforcement through education or education through enforcement, either way you want to say it. That's what code enforcement's designed to do, but we need to educate the residents how to put out trash better and more properly and why. And this is what BRAP is kind of focused on a little bit. But then we need to enforce it. The enforcement is used as an educational mechanism as it is as a violation or a fine.

And what would a ticket or fine look like?

How much?

Because they must give some out, no? Or do we never?

Because we've just... We do. So this is the little intricacy in the state law, sanitation law of mandatory containerization. We enforce containerization... When it's on your property on a non-trash day, it has to be containerized.

I got a ticket for having trash in a bag because we would

We certainly enforce that now and we write violations for it. If you are storing it on your property outside, it has to be containerized on a non-trash day. The minute it's on the curb on a trash day, we know we don't enforce it. And that's been the difference so far. And to enforce that would just be, I mean, it'd be beefing up. I don't know what the number is that, but it's certainly times the number of what we have for code enforcement officers right now.

Is there anything your team's doing on that?

Yeah, definitely. I just wanted to highlight that. I think one of the common themes is this education or awareness campaign. And sanitation is key in trying to help reduce rodent activity. and so what we're doing is you know the graphics that you're all referring to is actually part of our awareness campaign that we're launching across the city so we're doing this in a variety of ways one is being like through social media campaign We're working with the MBTA to get this advertisement campaign onto the green line into those neighborhoods where we have high student populations so that we can provide them with the educational materials they need to help. You know, containerize their trash properly. If you go to our website, which is boston.gov slash rats, we have a lot of information for residents about how their habits can help reduce rodent activity. One of those three areas of focus that John mentioned earlier in his presentation, two of those are really focused on one being trash and then another one being education. Both are really crucial for driving down the numbers.

I mean, because there's a direct correlation between putting your trash out and in a trash bag in the rats in your neighborhood. So at what point do we have to have, it's great education, it's important, but at some point we have to use what power we do have right if it's fines or something to say listen we can't be having rat walks but at the same time we're walking by white trash bags like it's almost like we're not Thank you. Thank you. The trash like on my street after trash pickup, like you said, there's lots of food left. There's liquid from the ripped barrels and it had been under all that You know, that pile of trash for probably 12 hours, and there won't be a street cleaner until the following day.

So I would just highlight that I think one of the key aspects of what we're trying to do right now is really gather as much feedback and research about what is the best changes that could potentially make for Boston, both from An operational perspective and also a financial perspective. So a lot of the different challenges that we're highlighting we're trying to address through some of these Thank you, Chair. Thank you.

Flynn.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I failed to acknowledge the sponsors when I originally spoke, so I want to say thank you to Councilor Durkan and Council President Louijeune for bringing this forward. Luke, you mentioned at the beginning you have a site visit in Chinatown next week. Is that accurate?

Yeah, so one of the... Things that we're doing with the class is showing them some of the different technologies that we have related to Boston Ordinance Action Plan. We just installed 20. All right.

Can you just send me the information when it is? Sure. Because I'd like to be there. Of course. If you can send me an email. We don't have an ONS person right now in Chinatown. I want to be on scene, but at least with someone from my staff that speaks Cantonese. Are you communicating with

We're working with both of the neighborhood association groups there, and we're working with folks who are able to help us communicate with the residents. Who is that? Helen Kwong. from the CPA.

Okay. Can you please send me an email today?

Definitely.

That's important. Thank you. Dennis, can you tell me how much we spend each year on trash, recycle, and then composting.

Yeah, I can give you some kind of rough numbers on trash and recycling. So the trash contracts are about $45 million annually, and that's for collections. The disposal side of it is somewhere between $30 and $40 million. and then we spend additional money I think it's around five ish million for our curbside composting program and we have various other programs as you guys know We have residential bins, which is called Project Oscar. Those are more minimal cost. Mattress collections, which is $3.5 million. So there's a lot of contracts. It's a ballpark. Our department's about a $100 million budget. What is it for recycling? for the bull barrels recycling. So that's actually lumped in. So Capital Waste picks that up. So it's all lumped into one $45 million number. The disposal side of it, we could break down for you and give you some of those costs, but I don't have them on the top of my hand. But I did tell you that trash is roughly $110 a ton versus recycling being $73 a ton. Okay, so the 45 annual is our collection that's cap that's a capital waste truck you see picking up okay both recycling and trash and then plus 30 for 30 million to dispose of it yeah okay okay yep um thank you you're welcome um

So I want to get back to an issue that I've practically worked on for eight years on pest control. I'm very concerned about what I see and experience in Chinatown almost on a daily basis. With how we're taking out our trash, people just leaving trash on the street in a bag, and almost immediately the seagulls really break through the bag. and then obviously the rats. So that's why I think it is a public health issue. What are we doing to support residents that live in difficult, challenging, Dense neighborhoods like Chinatown where restaurants are in the middle of the neighborhood as well. So many restaurants, probably more so than any neighborhood per area per capita. What are we doing in Chinatown specifically, or what can we do going forward to improve quality of life and public health?

I mean, some of the tactics that we take now in those types of neighborhoods, Chinatown being one, it's commercially zoned type places, is we get in there as early as possible. to those neighborhoods. Those neighborhoods are prioritized with getting trucks in there as quickly. Residential trucks, commercial waste is separate from us. But we get our residential trucks in there in the morning. And those are our morning districts. They're that way for a reason because they're highly commercial zones, they're non-containerization zones, they're those types of issues. Those are the zones that we're prioritizing during this Boston Right Action Committee for looking at the next level of contract to maybe, Insert policies that doesn't allow for bags to be put out overnight and allows a window for residents to put it out in the morning and start collection a little later, but still prioritize those zones with trash collection.

What time is the collection taking place in Chinatown?

We start a truck at 6 a.m. That doesn't mean that everybody gets the 6 a.m. It flows through the neighborhood starting at 6 a.m.

For example, on Tyler Street, down towards like Tai Tung, as you know, going up Tyler Street, almost impossible for a truck to, well, the truck has to stay in the middle of the street, obviously. But then, It's no fault of the trash pickup guy. But then when some trash spills out onto the sidewalk, and as you know, the cars are compacted right on top of each other, It's really not the truck driver's responsibility to pick the trash up, I think. But unfortunately, that trash stays on the ground for a long period of time regardless of what type of trash it is. That's my big concern. I do think we have to somehow move those cars off the street when the truck does come to make it easy for the driver, but also in the interest of public health. Any way we could deal with that, Dennis?

I mean, that would be a neighborhood outreach issue to get agreement and moving and not parking on trash day. I mean, it certainly makes operations easy. It certainly makes cleanup easier. Spillage They're navigating between cars. The bags aren't there properly. Residents not only would put them out in the white bags, we now see residents that put out trash in brown grocery paper bags. They just sit there and they blow over and they just blow down the street immediately. It's a lot of that coordination, but I think anything we can do to make trash collection in a dense urban environment and that's why we we look to residents for like that's why we're doing this study with you know it's this educational outreach to residents like how do you guys feel about If we were to restrict parking on trash days, those questions are being asked to residents.

Again, I need to be part of those conversations. It's important to my constituents that I'm engaged in part of that discussion. and having someone from my team that speaks Cantonese as part of those discussions is actually more important for me as well. I do have to be part of that. So if you can send me an email today, I want to make sure my assistant Melissa is at least there engaging the residents in Cantonese. But Dennis, you are right, and I don't want to take any more time, but I do see The trash collection guys, they do a wonderful job. But I've seen them pick up trash and then have to walk like eight and nine cars backwards. Yes. because there's no way for them to get the barrel through the two cars and then walk it up to where the truck is and then do the same, bring the barrel back, and it takes a long period of time. and you can see how challenging it is for that driver. But I do think if we do have cars off the street, Maybe there's an opportunity for us to get a sweeper down there too, because some of those cars sit there for a long period of time, as you know, and the trash is underneath the cars, next to the tires, almost impossible for the sweeper. A hokey to get it.

And one of the things we did during the last round of Trash Contractor, which is last year negotiation as Trash Contractor went up, is we mandated the trash company put two bodies on every truck. So it got to a point where they were like, I don't know if you want to call it cut in cost, but they were like the driver was pulling up, getting out of the truck, servicing the thing, and then going back in to drive again. We mandated during the last set of contracts that they have two bodies on the truck, and that's helped a little bit. But there's certainly more that can be done.

Thank you. And I'm going to continue to advocate for a standalone city department on pest control, elevate that person to a cabinet position. I think it's that critical. and important of a job in a department that we need a city department on pest control. Just my opinion about living in this city for my entire life. I know how critical this issue is. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Councillor Flynn. Okay, I know that I got a few requests for a second round of questions, so I'm going to honor that and give you all, again, six minutes to... So, Councillor Durkan, the floor is yours again.

Thank you so much. So I want to pivot just a little bit to commercial trash. But before I do that, Allie Foley is here from the Neighborhood Association of the Back Bay. She is the co-chair of the block I know that one issue that you described, New York piloting sort of these big trash bins, might be a solution uniquely for the Back Bay. And I'm just curious if there has been any thoughts about sort of different solutions for different neighborhoods. You guys have been thinking about outside of the box. I just want to make sure that obviously representing some of the densest neighborhoods, that some of these solutions that might not work in some settings that might work in other settings. I just want to say living on Anderson Street in Beacon Hill, I've noticed with all the new people that have moved in, we now sort of have an agreement that all the trash is going to be put on the corner. I don't know how we came to this agreement. People just started doing it. I know a lot of those sort of conversations and Wink and nods are happening in the back bay of where do we put our trash? How do we do this? It's really about bringing the community together and having some shared solutions to something that I was just curious, particularly with the bin system that might be abused in other places, whether back bay alleys were something that were thought about. before I move on to my commercial questions.

I mean, that's a natural thought to think about. Baylor is a perfect solution. It becomes about space, where they go. They have to have a consistent space on neighborhoods. But what's happening in areas of New York that have identified similar places like the Back Bay alleys for these programs is these community bins become dumping grounds. They become dumping grounds for the commercial restaurants. They become dumping grounds for out-of-city residents that just come in and think, oh, we can bring our trash there. So not only those bins, when those bins fill up, They stopped piling bags on top, around, all over, and that's what those have become, almost like a mini transfer station for the city. They've been extremely ineffective at that, and they just become a complete mess. Not only that is like then you now have residents that have to walk their trash like maybe a block, maybe a half block up the street every single day and that's how they would have to dispose of it. We've had a lot of pushback from residents that, no, I want to put my trash out on the curb in front of my residents, pick up everybody else, and not have to walk in a block, block and a half every time I pick it up. They have been completely ineffective in New York, I think, to this point, to a point where we haven't wanted to try it. We've been working with the back-ray residents, I was out there yesterday, about finding common spaces and shared spaces for trash.

And it's difficult because there's a lot of parking that's already spoken for.

It's extremely difficult. We had a situation yesterday where we had We've had a program going that was working for a few months and it was working really well and then on September 1st two new neighbors moved in and Hate it. They want it all changed back. They don't want to be part of it. It was a war out there yesterday just between neighbors. We thought it looked great. It was cleaned up. It was doing well. Now the two new neighbors, they don't want it.

Well, trust me, my district, we had some folks move in from another state and really gave me a piece of their mind this weekend about how they want everything to work in Beacon Hill. So it's really about all the neighbors that are here, all the neighbors that are coming, all the neighbors that continue to live here somehow coming to an agreement, which I know isn't the easiest thing.

and this is New York, so take it to scale, but those trash containers in New York, those community containers that we're talking about, instead of getting a day or two of service in New York like we service it normally, Those containers need six times a day service sometimes. like that's how quickly they fill up. So you need a truck that just constantly rolls the neighborhood and empties them. That's New York City. Like we probably wouldn't be that, but we were probably looking at a three day per day emptying model in a community container like that.

So I just want to get into some of my commercial questions because I'm just curious what it would take to, I mean, I have to say there are some businesses that are doing a really good job. Even bagging commercial trash, they double bag it. It's in the double ply and it's double bagged. And they're doing everything they can. And maybe the amount of trash that they have to get rid of is just... Thank you. Thank you so much. I mean, sorry, to containerize commercial trash.

Well, the ordinance is already in place at the state level. We don't need anything beyond that. We need mechanisms of enforcement. We need more code enforcement officers to enforce those. Part of the problem is, in these highly dense neighborhoods, you can't tell the difference between residential and commercial trash. And when commercial trash sets their trash perfectly in containers, and I'm not saying they're all good actors because they're not, but they put it out in the curb and it's all nice and containerized, residents will come and dump their trash on top of the commercial.

Yeah, I've seen that.

They'll leave their bags right on top. And so when we go and find the commercial business, the residents are just dumping on top. I leave it out perfectly. Here's my picture. Here's what I do. And they just pile it right on top. That's kind of what's happening. So that violation that we wrote, we didn't really enforce it on the person who was the bad actor.

Oh, that has happened. Recently the Sevens got a ticket in Beacon Hill. For someone putting residential trash on top of their trash.

How we'd respond to that is if we got a complaint from the business, we'd send a code enforcement officer. They'd look through the bag. If they saw a piece of mail or a box that had The residence address would write a ticket to the resident, but that's, I mean, to do that hundreds and if not thousands of time over, it just becomes about resources.

Absolutely so I guess just my follow-up question is we've all been in sort of like the mixed residential commercial alleys in the Back Bay and seeing how some of these restaurants continue to have overflowing trash bins. I mean, I know I've been to the alley rally, which NAB does a beautiful job, cleaned the dirtiest commercial alley. in the Back Bay. It was absolutely disgusting. And some of these companies like continue. Is there any salve for sort of ramping up certain types of enforcement or Sort of like if you've sort of gotten on a naughty list, you're sort of checked every single time.

Well, I mean, I think it becomes about getting a direction to firmly Thank you. Thank you. Code Enforcement Officers. Like I said, we have 17 officers that cover three shifts, so it's about five bodies a shift, that cover citywide, that try to cover 24-7. And it just... Unfortunately in their world, it's not proactive enforcement, it's reactive to 311 case enforcement.

I went out on a ride along and they had to take me home because I got too tired during their shift. I couldn't stay out the whole night. And just the fact that they're organizing their lives, a lot of them have kids, There are passing ships and the knife with our spouses. It's really, really hard work, so I'm really grateful to everything that they do. I know that today we don't have a ton of residents here to testify, and I think part of that is the city is engaging residents. and so many other levels and there's other public meetings taking place but I guess for me to and for me and for the city to move forward with this policy of same day put out and pick up one it requires some contractual and I think two, it really requires consensus. And so I'm just curious from your perspective What kind of engagement, what kind of consensus needs to exist? Because I've heard from residents as I've talked to them once I, you know, I've gotten very mixed reactions with this particular proposal. And so I think it's really important for the health, the safety, and really just the sanitation of our city to come out big with a new policy that prioritizes cleanliness and sanitation over everything. But I'm just curious from the administration's perspective, What would you need to see in order to move forward with something and what kind of community engagement needs to exist?

Yeah, I mean, I think we're about to embark on some of that with some of these residents as we engage with them in that sense. But I feel like when it comes to trash, there are people that are incredibly passionate about the cleanliness of the streets, and that's who we hear from more frequently. and I feel like there are people that just they're not going to like having a small window to put set out their trash time in bags like they're going to be very opposed to it So I don't think there's ever going to be full consensus. So the city is going to have to make some type of positive decision based upon rats and how clean we want our streets. And we are still one of the cleanest cities. And I just want to say that one of the negative incentives we have is that

Essentially, if you're a renter and you get a ticket and it doesn't get paid, You don't, there's really no consequence. It's going to eventually be a lien on your landlord's property, not, there's really no consequence to you. That's one of the negative incentives, I think. I mean, obviously if your name's on it, You might feel like I want to clear my name with the City of Boston because my name is on this. Is there any way for us to, because I think this, just, I'm a renter, so this is no slander on renters, but oftentimes you've been in the neighborhood less time, You potentially don't know the rules or the norms of that area. and I just I'm curious what incentives we can provide for renters specifically. And I just want to say that I've gotten multiple pieces of mail in the last 10 years that I've lived in Beacon Hill telling me how to dispose of my leaves. I don't have any green space. I live on a second floor. So I'm just curious if the city would consider doing mail to high rental areas and high rental zip codes right after September 1. Notifying them of the trash preferences and norms of their neighborhood because having gotten a lot of mail that really doesn't feel applicable to me from the city of Boston, this feels like a thing that the city could market and do and I think the MBTA marketing is great but I'm just curious particularly if the I mean if we're spending a hundred million dollars I feel like we could spend a certain a couple hundred thousand dollars sending out mail to every city of Boston resident saying This is the norm for trash in your neighborhood. Has that been something that's been considered?

Yes, so about two years ago the city funded a zero waste team which is focused on education and educational initiatives and they've begin the process of They're the ones that did the MBTA ads. They're the ones that sent out the mails and flyers. We're constantly reforming them, reshaping them, creating different messaging, figuring out how to ways to target groups. One of the things we're trying to become actively involved with now is digital ads through Facebook and things like that targeted at certain neighborhoods. So that team is going to help a lot with there. We certainly can use more. resources and dollars like mailings are incredibly expensive incredible like we do the yard waste calendar annually and I think it cost us almost a hundred thousand dollars to mail out a yard waste calendar every single year so it's it's it's those types of resources that would help

Thank you, and I know I'm way over, but I need to put on the record here, if you are a dog owner, please dispose of your dog waste in a way that helps this issue. Rodents love dog waste. and you know, Ali has a famous dog, Foxy Lady. And I know she does everything that she can to dispose of the waste of her dog. in a fair way we need more dogs group dog groups in the city and we need the city to actually invest in really talking to dog owners because This is a huge issue, and Beacon Hill and the Back Bay. I mean, mostly Beacon Hill, but I do think we really do need to handle that. People leaving. you know dog poop bags all over the sidewalk is not helpful to this problem and I think also people feeding birds it's not helpful so I just wanted to put that on the record for anyone listening Those are two recommendations that I never hear talked about, but I am in a recent Beacon Hill Times article and I did say that, so hopefully we're getting the word out. So thank you so much, Chair, for letting me go over and really appreciate all of your time today.

Thank you, Councilor Durkan. Councilor Louijeune.

Thank you. I have three questions. Have we seen with the rollout of composting and Councilor Durkan filed, I think it's this trio hearing on composting. Have we seen with like, I love composting because my kitchen, like it just, It doesn't, the trash smell just doesn't exist in the same way. I freeze my, I also freeze my compost so that, to get at the smell issues. But have we seen a reduction? Do we have any data that shows a reduction in rodent activity in areas that are composting?

We don't have data. I would say that removing food waste out of your trash is one of the most effective ways for it not to become a food source for rodents. I also have not Gardner report that a rat has got in one of the city compost bins yet. Cross our fingers. So they're good containers, separating food waste from your trash. is one of the most effective ways to really and putting it in a container that we know is Rodent-Resistant, I would say, is a good step forward. But we don't have data per se.

I think while the composting program is incredibly successful, it's still just at 25,000 residents citywide, so when you go to a street and you see a very active composting street of Maybe 20 houses, maybe eight of them in a good way of composting. The rats can still find trash at the other 12 houses. So, you know, unless it was done at a mass scale, I don't think. I think you're going to see improvements, but I don't think you're going to see any kind of mass data changes in that sense.

Would you recommend for that separation for a household or a person who lives in an area, let's say, and Beacon Hill, where I'm not sure if you are part of the composting. Right. Where they can't be part of the composting program, but they want to sort of like, what would you recommend to someone that wants to do the separation, like the most effective way of doing that?

Well, similar to what you said, you freeze your food scraps. That is a good one.

You're delaying the- But then when I have to put it out on trash day, what do I do?

You would delay the amount of time that your trash sits on the sidewalk, so you would put it out the morning of. So really trying to limit the amount of time and access to food is the best way.

And one of the John's is 100% right. Like these containers, food waste containers, rodents haven't eaten through them. The biggest reason for that is they're small enough that people store them inside. People don't store them outside in their property during the week. They put them out on trash day. but they don't store them outside so the rats can't pick at it overnight for hours upon hours upon hours and you're storing your food waste inside until it has to come out on the curb that day. But freezing is a very good way.

Yeah, I mean, I don't actually use the inside. I just use the outside bin. So I don't, my mother is also composting now and she loves it as well. But, and she uses the inside bin, but I just, I just, Put it in bags and I freeze it and then...

But that green outdoor bin, most people are keeping that inside is what I'm trying to say.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, most are.

The little green bin? It's about three feet high, yeah. Okay, I'm not keeping it inside, so...

and the regular trash to deter rats you can spritz it with 10% bleach and that will deter rats from chewing on your barrels and Thank you.

Thank you. With respect to commercial trash and that not being within the city's requirement, do our Trash folks sometimes, how do they know it's commercial trash? What if there's commercial trash that's out on the same time as residential trash? Will they pick that up?

I think it could happen on occasion, but these guys that do the trash routes knew the routes, they know the habits, they can see it. Most of the commercial trash is set out in a container, whether it be a dumpster, a smaller two yard dumpster, or branded Are we seeing any deterrent effects?

We've done a lot of dumpster work on absentee landlords by issuing fines for overflowing dumpsters. Have we seen any? Or what will it take for there to be an effective deterrent?

We've certainly been out in your neighborhoods walking and we certainly see impacts when we target areas and we figure out and we walk the neighborhood and we do this weekly. We're trying to target certain really problem properties and we do see massive improvements to get the level of improvements we need, especially with commercial trash. One of the key things that I think Boston is unique to almost any city in this country is... Most cities, it depends on the level, but most of them are over four units. They treat anything over four units as commercial trash. Cities won't service them. They require them to get private service. which allows them more frequent pickups, which allows them to containerize and have dumpsters that are fully containerized more. We basically service every building and it's basically has to be serviced at a residential level with a residential truck which as many of you've seen you go into these places and the lids are broken and everything's a misarray and below law it's the way we classify our big buildings in the We are almost unique in this country in doing that

Another way we can tell the difference between commercial trash, it's the site cleanliness program. We require commercial businesses to have a site cleanliness, so that requires a commercial pickup. present the contract. So they wouldn't put it out with because they're paying for a commercial trash. They wouldn't put it out with residential.

What's your recommendation that we do what other cities are doing?

I think it should be thought of. I think there's a lot of big policy change that would need to happen with that, and I think there's a lot of impacts of that, but I think it should be on the table as to... How we reduce the city's cost of trash. I mean, when we go out and we service a 500 brand new unit building, and many more. I mean, probably a hedge fund or a national, and we're picking up the cost of those.

What's the threshold again for pickup for us?

We pick up anything right now as long as you can bring it to the curb. So, you know, we won't go behind your building and serve as a dumpster. We still have old ones that we've grandfathered in under the program, certainly, but you need to be able to bring it to the curb. So the 500 unit building opened up and they said we can roll our Six two yachters to the curb every Tuesday and Thursday, we're going to pick you up. Other cities have developed those thresholds. It's different for every city. and many more. Some of them get different service. Some of the cities have A commercial contract to service them, but then they charge for it. They charge the buildings for it. So there's so many models out there.

Why don't we do that?

There's so many models out there, but I'll say we are unique. We are the only people that will service you at no cost as long as you can comply with our guidelines. We will service you. We're the only ones that do that.

Yeah, that seems like a problem. Because I actually think, I'm thinking out loud, but think about APN. We've done a lot of work of walks and try to hold them accountable in Mattapan and Hyde Park. for just their blatant, you know, and I hear about it because my best friend lives on Tennis Road and they own a property right at the end of it and it's bad. It's bad.

And they change management, I think, every eight months, I guess.

Yes. If we were to just, if we assumed the responsibility of doing, I don't know if this is what you're saying, but I'm thinking a lot, of doing all of the residential trash pickup, even for large business, but then charged them, could that be? I don't know if that's what you're suggesting.

I'm saying there are cities that use that model, yes. Some cities just totally say, nope, you're on your own, you have to get your own private trash pickup. Some of them manage the program, but then charge back for it.

because, I mean, us managing and doing it all could, and code enforcement's important, shout out to John Blackmore, incredibly, he's done great work with our office, but it kind of gets at, removes that layer if you're able to do it directly and then charge them and they pay. But I know that's probably like a gigantic task.

It would be a big, I mean, the city would have to pull together a team of people that oversaw, manage it. There'd be a billing component to that, and that doesn't exist today.

and like probably a tripling of the current capacity, I'd imagine. But probably would lead to cleaner streets, more efficiency.

And I think this is some of the work that we're trying to collect from the different models that we're seeing from peer cities. So a lot of the things that you're just discussing here is kind of what's being done in Toronto. So a lot of fruitful conversations with our colleagues across the country and also internationally.

Thank you. Thank you for your time and for all the work that you do. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you. I want to ask a question where I have a Really interesting model right in Roslindale Square by the Birch Street Plaza. There's like a ton of businesses on Birch that are like in the middle of Birch Street, Corinth Street, where the Roslindale Village Market is. All those businesses, they use the dumpsters behind their businesses. So you have to kind of go, if you're the trash truck, you have to go through the village market parking lot and then you go, there's like a little street there. And that's where they pick it up. But every single one of those businesses have to dump their trash in there. Is that A City Pickup, is that location set by the city? or was that organized by the businesses?

No, that's all private commercial collection that's not overseen by the city. Mass state law stipulates that we can't regulate how they put it out, where they put it out, and what time they put it out. Yeah. Commercial businesses especially, they have their own kind of guidelines set by the state that they follow. So that's a commercial zone. Some of this, there's new apartments there. Well, not that new, the ones over the hardware store. I'm not sure how they dispose of their trash.

That's a little, they have their own system.

Yeah, probably, yeah. But yeah, most of that's a commercial zone that we don't regulate or go into at all. Okay. But we enforce with code enforcement. If it's a mess and if it's anything like that, we enforce it.

That's good to know. And I only bring this up because it's a good model of how the trash is mitigated there. I don't get any complaints about, and there's, I kid you not, maybe over two dozen businesses just in that parameter of my neighborhood. And it's just, it's clean, there's one for trash, there's one for recycling, and it's just, it's done well. So I was curious, like, Replicate that model elsewhere, but okay, so it's it's strictly commercial district right there And then my favorite one and again, this is another commercial location is the Mattapan Square location of The T-Mobile store between the American Food Basket and T-Mobile. What do we do about those landlords that just didn't care about if there's an overload of trash and there's just An overfill of trash consistently.

Yeah, I mean, certainly you and I have been out on that site before and walked. I mean, it's a problem weekly. It's an illegal dumping zone. It's literally very accessible to a car pulling up and just offloading and that's what's happening. We've certainly caused residents from out of town that come in and dump in town. Other businesses, it's just, so we've worked with the resident there, like the business is about trying to set up a camera system. We put up illegal dumping signs and fine signs. That's about it. We work, if the video camera system is able to pick up somebody dumping with a license plate, we write the violation to the people that are dumping. For the businesses themselves, we write them violations for the overloading dumping. It becomes a collection issue, which is not us. It's on the Treasury side of things about collecting these fines and making sure they're held accountable. I would love to see more problem properties internally. Like Problem Properties is a task force in ISD that deals with these issues. I'd love to see a Problem Properties trash task force at some point, which has been recommended by on some reports for something to do. I would like to see like some type of task force that attacks those measures on even businesses right even though because we are enforcing them code enforcement wise like what are private properties just for trash problems I think that would be a pretty good solution and it just it's so frustrating because

The landlord of that building is then able to continue to work the same way he applied for a LED billboard up there. I was like, there should be some sort of restriction to stop allowing to do stuff in the city of Boston. until you either pay all the fines and fix the issue, Or you're not going to continue to get permits, buddy.

Yeah, it is. I mean, to say a dozen is probably a couple of dozen of properties just like that. They're just a weekly issue. It's constant. And no matter what we do, no matter what, it still remains an issue.

Yeah, so we'll be, I think you kind of like set up a light bulb and that's when you set up wrong properties, task force for trash. That'll be a huge help for us. Okay, that was it for me. A lot of my colleagues answered a lot of my questions, so I appreciate that. I do know we have some public testimony, so I'm going to wrap up the Q&A portion of this, and then do public testimony, and then we can do some closing remarks. Okay, so when your name is called, please come up to the podium, state your name, what neighborhood you're from, and then you'll have two minutes to testify. The first name I see on here is Paul O'Connor.

Thanks for having this meeting. I appreciate being able to come out here. Just as a little bit of information, and maybe this has already been established in different neighborhoods. I'm from the Back Bay. and I parked my car near the corner of Dartmouth Street on Public Alley 218. It's like a super highway for rats. It's horrible. Every time, and my car has been attacked at least four times, three times in the last year. It's $5,000 per event. To have the mechanics lift the engine out of the car, make a very minor repair for where the rats have chewed through and then place it back. Sometimes insurance covers, sometimes insurance does not cover. I shared this information with one of your, with Councilor Durkan's Office workers, I'm not sure who I was speaking to. And it's becoming unsustainable. I mean, if that happens to me three times a year, that's $15,000. Sometimes insurance will cover it, sometimes it won't. So, to me, I hear all of the complexity around dealing with this situation, but if the answer really is to get to containerization, That's the only way that we're going to keep rats from getting to a food source. Then let's get there. If that means giving up three or four parking spaces on the street just to have permanent dumpsters of some sort, let's do it. The other implication, and I'm not the only one that has these car problems. Have you heard of these kind of car problems? My neighbor who parks next to me, it just so happens I had jury duty today so I could come down, so it's kind of weird that I'm here. It was canceled. But my neighbor, who goes away for a month or two at a time, came back and had the fuel pump I was there with him. You could smell very strongly the smell of gasoline, so that could have gone up. So it's a real problem. And so my point is, Really, if the answer is containerization, which I think it is, because the trash bags just don't prevent the rats. I've seen broken trash bags. The one culprit also that you didn't mention yet is there are people that come through the neighborhoods, rip the bags open, and remove cans. and then that even makes it easier for rats that's got to be dealt with but you know I guess I'm out of time but I came down here to this Committee meeting and sat there for two hours and wanted to just make sure that there's a need for speed. You know, I go out to my car, neighbors go out to their cars, they won't start. You know, your day is ruined. So there's a need for speed on this. All the analysis that you're doing with the BRAMP, what is it? BRAP? It's great, but... Let's get to some solutions and make it happen because there's just not enough time to wait to solve these problems.

Thank you, Paul. Okay, Ms. Foley.

Good, good, almost afternoon. One, hello Luke, John, John and... Dennis Roach. Thank you so much for all your support. It's been incredibly helpful. And to Sharon as well for bringing this important topic to the forum. As I was coming here late, I was trying to write down some of the ideas that I'm trying to explore. and trying to partner with you folks on some ideas. This is really a hard problem to solve, so there are no exact right answers, but I think you're, You're heading in some of the good directions what I'm hearing today. Sharon had inquired about maybe some educational materials and that seems to be problematic with mail and things like that. I'd like to see if we can get a list of all the landlords in the city and property management companies and you can electronically communicate to these individuals on a regular cadence to communicate in hot spots or some of the awareness issues around the white kitchen trash bag, which seems to be very problematic. I have video where I have rats that attack the white kitchen trash bag faster and more steady as opposed to the black contractor back there we're talking about which is a 0.9 mil thickness bag it's a you know it slows the chew rate down is essentially what I call it so um And I didn't introduce myself in the beginning, but I do run the Block Captain program in Back Bay. And you folks have been hearing some of the success stories we had with Trash Talk Sundays, which we're expanding that program. We started in Public Alley 414 on Beacon and Marlborough Streets area, and Hereford, that area. And we had about 70 participants over three Sundays, and the area was looking very well until Sharon noted college students have moved back in and this past week I got some horrific pictures. So that has definitely hampered a little bit, but we were making significant progress there. We're not gonna give up, we're gonna go back. But a couple of things. A simple thing, maybe incorporating the white kitchen trash bag, a fine associated with that bag. Just as simply as you require people to put trash into trash bins, I would take the white kitchen trash bag and place it inside or make a requirement to be placed inside of a black contractor bag. It's the equivalent of a temporary containerization. In my opinion, because basically you're feeding the rats for up to 18 to 22 hours on a day where they don't pick up the trash in Back Bay until 2 or 3 p.m., That trash has been out from the prior day at 5pm, so it's literally 22 hours. The storage bins are a great idea. I think Mack and Bonner had some samples from New York City, a really interesting antique bin that looked really small and compact that could go maybe on a curb. and maybe we can pilot that. Another pilot idea that I would like to consider is maybe we pilot a neighborhood. with maybe leveraging the Hokie program. And maybe the Hokies come at a particular period of time and they put the white kitchen trash bags inside black trash compactor bags, right? and maybe we can measure and see if there's any less rat activity in the area. And maybe the Hoagie program could help leverage, you know, just on the nights the trash put out that they go around and they help bring all those bags in there. We did that at the Trash Talk Sundays and it was very instrumental in putting the white kitchen trash bag inside of those bags. The names of the landlords or the communications channels need to be opened up with those entities. I also liked your idea or your thinking, Dennis. I know Fairfield Realty in Back Bay does a good job of picking up all of their residential trash. I think that pretty much all of their buildings, they don't have their residents put their trash out on the street. They come around in a truck, and I'm thinking maybe that could be a requirement for buildings that are eight units and above. That might be a consideration as well. I thank you all. It's a big problem. Thanks for bringing it to the forum. And, you know, anybody has any questions, you can reach out to me at the Block Captain Program in Back Bay. and I'm happy to share the Trash Talk Sundays series come by five to eight. We're expanding the program in the middle parts of the residential area. you know in the coming weeks on Sundays so you know come and learn we talk a lot about in those programs just so you know we talk about containerization composting options which I'm excited that We're going to look at a compost location soon in Back Bay and partner with the city on that. But we talk about how to separate your food waste separate from the regular trash. We talk about proper trash. Thank you. Okay.

I know we have one more virtually. Is that true Shane? Yes. Hey Heidi, can you hear us? Let's make sure she unmutes herself.

Yes, I can hear you.

Perfect. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, you have two minutes.

Thank you very much. My name is Heidi Nichols Baldacci. I live at 1 Primus Ave, No. 1 in Beacon Hill. I want to thank Councilor Durkan and her team for bringing this forward. I am speaking in favor of this proposal because The rat population in my area of Beacon Hill is a public health crisis. My condo association and myself, we have optimized the efforts of the exterminator, We have Pat McDonough, who is from ISD Environmental Services on rat abatement. He has been a tremendous Support. Big shout out to Pat. Pat is even coming tomorrow morning to put CO2 in our rat holes in our small garden at Primus Ave. We were able to identify four entrance and exit holes for rats. Personally, I buy bleach because there's so much rat excrement on Primus Ave. People are walking into it and all over the place. So we have optimized our efforts and we're still losing the battle. My husband was watering the other day and a rat walked right up to his feet. So I am supportive of this proposal and any other efforts that we can make because we're losing right now. And I just have to give a shout out September 1st is always a difficult time in our area, but you know what? The city really did. I would say this is the best of 18 years that they did in getting the trash off the streets. Thank you.

Thank you for that testimony and I think the city would appreciate that compliment. Yes, so that's very good. Thank you so much for that. Okay. Thank you to everyone that provided a Public testimony. We're going to now head to just closing statements. I'll allow my colleagues to do closing statement first and then panelists.

Thank you so much, Chair. I just wanted to thank the panel and also just wanted to highlight that October 16th meeting that's coming up. Would love to have constituents testify. I think it is really, really important that we hear from both sides of this issue because the reality is I have a lot of working families, doctors who live in my district that for them to get up early in the morning sometimes is really difficult after you've worked a late night shift. I want to hear from all perspectives on this issue because to be honest we can't get this done we can't move quickly unless we include everyone I am passionate about fighting the rat population I think It like for me on trash day I have to walk in the middle of the street because and I have to wear closed-toed shoes and I don't think we should have to Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. There's a different nuance to this in every single neighborhood, so I appreciate that my solution might not be everyone's solution, but I do think in areas where you can containerize your trash, and so forth. Being able to put it out at 5 p.m. makes sense. In areas where you can't we need to figure out a solution so that our trash is on the street for less time. I think that's going to take some political You know, and also I think some of the proposals that we heard today around what other cities are doing and actually capping how much waste you can put on the street. would impact quality of life in a really positive way. I understand there might be certain allowances for, OK, everyone's moving, so these two days are different. But I don't think people should be able to put their entire apartment on the sidewalk. and it impacts every single person in the city. And so anyways, I just want to thank you all. This has been a really fruitful conversation. I want to thank all the colleagues that joined and I just want to thank the chair and his team. They did a great job working with my team on this hearing. So, thank you.

Thank you, Councilor. Councilor Louijeune.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the lead sponsor for filing and for her work on this issue. I want to thank the administration for being here and the residents. Obviously, when the gentleman was up speaking about what happened to his car, I had to check my inbox because I've recently heard that same exact story from someone. I'm not sure if we've spoken, but someone told me that they had rodents shoot through their car and insurance covered it the first time, but then wouldn't cover it the second time. And so it just gives weight to the importance of addressing this issue. Y'all are great. I've worked with y'all before. We were doing hearings on this issue. I appreciate all of your, I actually have a question. And so that's my closing, but my question is, Just so that I'm clear, if you are able to containerize, I live in Hyde Park, I do use those white trash bins. So I'm trying to get this right, those white trash bags. I take those white trash bags and I put them in my trash outside. Should I be using the thicker bag if I am able to containerize? No, the white bag is sufficient.

Yeah, the white bag is sufficient if it's inside the container.

Okay, thank you. Thanks for all the work you do.

Thank you. Okay, panelists, if you have any closing remarks.

I can... Start maybe, yeah. I would just start by saying thank you not only to the counselors, but also to the residents who are here testifying. I think this process has given us a lot of great feedback in what residents are willing and hoping for us to change. What we presented today is just one aspect of the work that we're doing in terms of trying to mitigate rats. As John mentioned earlier in the presentation, the goal of the Boston Rodent Action Plan is to drive down rodent activity as much as possible across the city and and really try to improve the quality of life for all residents. We're doing that in a variety of ways and also trying to collect data and deploy Rodent Mitigation Technologies with sewer traps in the Back Bay and the North End, surface traps in South Boston and Chinatown. We are really grateful for the $100,000 we got from the City Council to help install more rodent-resistant trash cans. We're trying to take an all of government approach, working with all departments, including our data analytics colleagues, our folks at Public Works, BHA, to make sure that we're having an impact across the city. So we're really glad that we're able to present our findings and research that we're doing today. But over the next couple months, we'll continue to work with community, continue to do research, and then, again, analyze any of those Potential recommendations for potential solutions based on the operational and financial feasibility of any solution we want to propose. But we thank you again for your time. And as always, if you have any questions or we can be of assistance, just please reach out to us and we're happy to help.

And I'll just add, you know, I thank Allie for her testimony here. She was the inspiration for kind of the white bags where we talked about earlier. She was the one who brought it to our attention and how her work as a block captain and how she spread that message throughout the Back Bay. It's inspired me when I'm out there talking in groups and learning what she's told me about those impacts that she expressed to us in her testimony, so thank you for that. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it becomes about focus and resources. I think it's the city taking some time and we've certainly done that thanks to you guys and budget approvals the last couple of years that's added A policy and planning position of the trash unit and zero waste coordinators that help us with education outreach. Those things matter, like all that stuff matters internally, People doing that work for years and years and years. My team and they're still very much focused about servicing 70,000 households a day. So doing a lot of forward thought was never really part of the plan. It has been in the last couple of years due to the approvals of some of those positions. So those matter as we look at trash contracts. More resources matter there as well as we implement policy changes. Those matter as well as we look at things. Maybe we are Charging somewhere down the line to generate some offsetting revenue so we can do trash better in other areas. I think all that stuff matters. So thank you guys for having us today.

I would just echo what Luke and Dennis said. We're really trying to shift from a reactive to a proactive approach. We cannot... Lethal control is the least effective way to deal with rodents we have to attack The root causes, and we know that trash is the main driver. It's the main food source for rats. We also need community engagement. We can't enforce our way out of this. So the work that Ali is doing and trying to replicate that, across the city with different groups engaging getting neighbors to work together to talk together one house on a block Can affect every other house that is doing the right thing. So encouraging that work, shifting to a more proactive approach, and Collecting real data. It's the first time that we've had real data on road of population. So looking to measurably reduce that is really important. So I appreciate your time and for this hearing.

Thank you. And I'm also just very grateful to the three of you for being here today, to our community, just advocates for the continuous work that you all do, to all of our offices. I know we get a lot of requests about trash pickup, but I also want to give a Huge shout out to our sanitation workers, those that are out there every single day. It's not an easy job. And I know that without them, our city would smell and look very differently. So I'm just very grateful for the work they do. But I know that Your teams are doing a great job. We always strive for greatness here in the City of Boston, so there's always room for improvement. So we want to be part of that solution with you all. So thank you so much for today's hearing. This hearing on docket number 1448. is adjoined. Thank you.