City Council - Housing & Community Development Committee Hearing on Docket #1440

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Good afternoon, everyone. For the record, my name is Liz Breadon. I'm the District Councillor for Alston Brighton, District 9, and I'm the Chair of the Boston City Council Committee on Housing and Community Development. Today is October 9th, 2025, and the exact time is 2.07. This hearing will be is to be recorded and will also be live streamed at boston.gov backslash city dash council dash tv and broadcast on Xfinity channel 8 RCN channel 82 Fios Channel 964. Written comments may be sent to the committee email at ccc.education ccc.housing at boston.gov and will be made part of the record and available to all councillors. Public testimony will have interspersed public testimony throughout the hearing. Individuals will be called in an order in which they signed up and will have two minutes to testify. If you're interested in testifying in person, please add your name to the sign up sheet near the entrance of the chamber. If you are looking to testify virtually please email our Central Staff Liaison Shane Pack for the link and your name will be added to the list. Today's hearing is on docket number 1440, order for a hearing to review public expenditures and fiscal oversight related to ownership investments in Boston. This matter was sponsored by councillors Julia Mejia, Brian Worrell and Erin Murphy and was referred to the committee on August 6, 2025. So in the order of arrival, Councillor Flynn and Councillor Mejia are here. I will open with very brief opening statements. Since there's so few of you, both of you can have an opening statement. We'll start with the lead sponsor, Councillor Mejia.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, everyone, for joining us today. I want to start off by thanking the Chair Breadon for hosting this hearing, and my co-sponsors for their advocacy around expanding home ownership opportunities, and all of my colleagues for being a part of this discussion. I also want to thank the administration. for joining us today and for their ongoing work to expand pathways towards home ownership. This hearing comes directly from conversations with residents who have shared the real difficulties that they're facing. unexpected financial burdens, complicated governance structures, and unclear policies, just to name a few. Home ownership should provide stability and a chance to build wealth, but for too many, It is instead feels like navigating a maze of restrictions, assessments, and unanswered questions. Our office has connected with homeowners experiencing overwhelming building assessments and mixed income developments, where both limited equity and market rate owners are struggling with little support. We've heard from co-op members who carry all of the cost of home ownership but still cannot build equity because of how their developments were financed. others have raised concerns about governance gaps, structure, construction defects that appear years later among unique challenges of maintaining green building designs without adequate follow through or support. I also just want to acknowledge that we may not leave here today with a single solution, but we do have the opportunity to hear directly from the residents, reflect on our role as the city, and begin shaping a clear, more comprehensive and accountable pathway forward. Even in areas where the city lacks direct jurisdiction, we can still choose to be a stronger and a more thoughtful partner in helping those who are navigating Some of these challenges. It is my hope that today's discussion opens doors to better oversight, more transparency, and ultimately more sustainable home ownership in Boston. I look forward to hearing from the administration, our panelists, and all who are joining us today.

Thank you, Councillor Mejia. Councillor Flynn, you have the floor. Two minutes.

Thank you Madam Chair and thank you to the administration team that is here and for the important work that you are doing. Thank you, Madam Chair, for chairing this important hearing. To the original co-sponsors, Councilor Mejia, Councilor Worrell, Councilor Murphy, for bringing this forward. We want to also recognize Residents and activists in South Boston in my community, the Father Martin Homes as well. I know they're my neighbors actually in South Boston. It's a wonderful community. I want to say welcome to the residents also. I want to acknowledge the residents that are here also watching on television too from Tent City. I had the opportunity to visit Tent City two weeks ago on a Sunday. They had the brunch in honor of Mel King, and it was a wonderful celebration with residents of Tent City and proud to represent that area of the kind of right in the back bay, south end. and Boulder across from the train station. This is an important discussion and looking forward to hearing from the administration, The public testimony as well. I will not be staying long, but I will have an opportunity to watch most of this video on television later this evening. I'm looking forward to learning more about what this issue is all about. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Councillor Flynn. Councillor Louisiane, do you have any opening statements?

Shaw, I'll be brief. Thank you, Councilor Breadon. Thank you to Councilman here for filing this. I want to say thank you to the administration for all the work that you've been doing on homeownership and making it accessible. We know that the best form of rent control is homeownership because you know how much your mortgage is going to be every month. There's a lot more work that we still have to do. I see Hilary Pizer, who turned me into a home ownership organizer after I took a class with Maha. And I'm incredibly grateful for their advocacy. We are not perfect. There are things that we need to be doing. I just know that the city is committed to the work. So I want to thank you, Chief. I want to thank you, Karen. I want to thank you, Jeff. And I want to thank you, Rick, for all the work that you do every single day here for our city. And I look forward to this conversation and I look forward to hearing from residents. Thank you Madam Chair.

Thank you Councillor Louijeune. We move to the first panel. I'd like to introduce today's panelists. Today's panellists, Chief Sheila Dillon, Chief of the Mayor's Office of Housing, Rick Wilson, Director of Administration and Finance at the Mayor's Office of Housing, Karen Rebaza, Director of the Boston Home Center, Jeffrey Thomas, Special Assistant to the Chief of Planning, and Hilary Pizer, Director of Organizing and Policy at Maha. Welcome all. It's so good to see you all here. Thank you for being here. And I'll hand it over to... So we're going to allow up to 20 minutes for your testimony from your panel, so we can... Start off. You have the floor. Oh, and pardon me, I'll just pause for a second. I haven't started. You are one of the original co-sponsors. Would you like to make an opening statement?

Yes. Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the panel for being here and all the residents in attendance. I am a big advocate for home ownership. I believe that we need to be doing a lot more, whether it's investments, whether it's through the zoning process, to make home ownership a reality for more Bostonians. So many, so many Bostonians home ownership is out of reach for, but I know that we are making a large... Movement in the last couple years through the investment that this administration has made and I want to make sure that we are not attacking and O'Neill, and many more. So I am looking forward to hearing more on this conversation, but also looking to see how we could be more supportive of homeowners When they gain these great opportunities. So thank you. And I'll add one last thing. I think that through homeownership, we see so many benefits, right? I think our housing policy should be definitely in line with all of our other policies and home ownership helps us get to some of those policies that we're looking to tackle in other topics. So thank you so much. Looking forward to the conversation.

Thank you, Councillor Worrell. So we'll move on to our first panel. Chief Dillon, I'm going to start the clock.

You have the floor. Thank you. I will open it up. And I do, before I even... I do want to thank the City Council for their support and homeownership. We have been trying very, very hard. We are not perfect, but your support has really helped us in neighborhoods. It's helped us get resources. It's helped us shape policy. So I'd be amiss if I didn't really acknowledge the city council's support for this program. I'm going to hand this over to Karen Rabaza, who is the director of the Boston Home Center. Her and her staff have been killing it over the last two years. Thank you. Thank you. And I know that there are some questions about resources and financing, and so we've brought Rick Wilson from A&F, our A&F director, who, if we don't have it with us today, we will get it to you. But with that, I'm gonna hand it over to Karen. Thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone. For the record, my name is Karen Ravaza, and I'm the director of the Boston Home Center. So next slide. Thank you. So thank you for the opportunity to share an update in our collective work to expand equitable homeownership opportunities across the city of Boston. Homeownership, it's not just about buying a home, and we know that. It is about ensuring that every Boston resident has a real chance to build their future in the city of Boston. So let's take a look at the current landscape of homeownership, and this is what we're noticing in our city. Boston Meridian Home sales price is approximately $789,000. With today's still high interest rate. This creates a significant challenge for many first time home buyers, especially low to moderate income buyers. The home ownership vacancy rate stands at 1 and 1% indicating limited inventory and high competitive market for prospective buyers. We have also acknowledged a notable racial disparities in homeownership where 43% of white residents own their homes, 32% of black residents own their homes, and 18% of Latinx residents own their homes. These figures really highlight a need to continue efforts to make home ownership more accessible and equitable across all communities. The Mayor's Office of Housing is addressing these challenges by expanding pathways in home ownership through financial assistance for first-time homebuyers and develop income-restricted ownership opportunities. Recent investments from the City The Community Preservation Act, the Neighborhood Housing Trust, and the Community Builder Program in ARPA have further strengthened these initiatives to support this creation of more affordable homeownership options throughout Boston. Next slide, please. Through the Boston Home Center, we provide education, which is really important for us, counseling, and technical support for both new and prospective homebuyers. We don't do this alone. We also work with Really close partners. We have non-profit organizations that work very closely with us. We recently launched a condominium buyer class that we have partnered with Maha, which already has 551 graduates. And this is helping residents better understand the condo ownership. and management before they buy a home. I will be more than happy to share the curriculum if anyone wants to see it. We also address one of the highest barriers of homeownership, credit access, and we have our credit booster program in partnership with Urban Edge. This offers financial literacy education and grants to help first-time homebuyers raise their credit scores and become mortgage ready to be able to afford and be able to buy a home in Boston. Another important initiative is the First Generation Home Buyer Match Savings Program in partnership with Maha. So far 648 residents have enrolled and 124 have already All of our programs are designed with language accessibility in mind. So because opportunity should never depend on whatever English is your first language, we really have all our programs in documents in 11 languages. Next slide, please. As we know, financial barriers remain one of the toughest hurdles in homeownership, and that's where our financial assistance makes a real difference. For some homebuyers, goal access, down payment, and closing cost assistance. And as you know, and I call this my biggest baby, is the OnePlus Boston, which Maha and MHB have been really partnered with this program. where it provides interest rate subsidy which significantly reduces monthly mortgage costs to our residents. On their end, this is something that we want to highlight. Under Mayor Wu leaderships, we have seen a historic and unprecedented investment in homeownership opportunities. Since 2022, we have assisted 1,059 homebuyers. and I'm proud to share that 50% of them are BIPOC households and most of them earned below the 100% of AMI. We also have our BHA First Home Program, which is also a partnership with the Boston Housing Authority. So far as of yesterday, I know the slide says 84, but yesterday we heard that we are at 85 residents, which is really a huge accomplishment. And there is still more that we're working with, with BHA, 83% of those buyers are BIPOC. This is a real progress, evidence that our investments are not only expanding access but also closing racial barriers. Homeownership Gap, and Helping Families to Build Generational Wealth here in the City of Boston. Next slide. And I think this is it.

Great. Thanks, Karen. It was a good summary of the programs. So as Karen mentioned, there is not a lot that our low and moderate income families can purchase in the market, although we are helping people buy in the market through low interest loans and down payment assistance. We've really stepped up. The amount of development that we're supporting to build new homeownership. The city has historically focused on using our land and resources for rental developments, because neighborhoods want it, city council wants it, and it's the right thing to do, we are building more, supporting the construction of more home ownership projects. As the slide indicates, we're providing both funding, and surplus land. So we also are creating affordable homeownership opportunities through the inclusionary zoning program and before that, IDP. So that's setting aside, if there's a home ownership market rate development, setting aside a certain percentage of the units to be lower costs so moderate income families can purchase those units. To date, we have completed Since 2022, 526 new homeownership units with another 368 in construction, and we have over 1,000 homeownership units in our affordable pipeline, which those... Looking back on what we have produced in years prior, those are very, very large numbers. So we are, as many of you know, we are prioritizing working with local developers That is really a shift. We're working with a lot of new teams and providing a lot of technical assistance, but they're building beautiful homes and we're really making this about economic development as well. Just a couple of other things. Designs and materials are reviewed for compliance. We're really being very careful about Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Norwell Street, you'll see this is 12 mixed income home ownership units to be completed in July. I've been driving by and it's moving fast, so it's really a good indication where we had land We made resources available. The state made resources available. And we're going to have 12 new homes for sale soon. Another example. Flynn is certain knows this one. We did a groundbreaking in Chinatown, I want to say two weeks ago, where we saw a Boston public development where we're going to but you need to, can somebody advance the slide? Sorry, there we go. Okay, that's coming, that's Norwell Street. All right, and now the next one, sorry. Can you advance? Okay, there we go. This is in Chinatown on Hudson Street where it's the housing with public asset program. where we're developing a new long awaited library for Chinatown, which folks have wanted for very, very long periods of time. But on top of the library, there'll be over 100 units of affordable housing, 44 home ownership units. So I'm just showing these to show variation in the program. Some were funding in high-rise or more dense conditions. Others are condominiums, singles and twos on infill sites throughout the city. Next slide. Another project that we really do love and people, these sell very, very quickly. Everyone wants to live in Olmstead. These are singles and townhomes in Olmstead Green. There were 80 homeownership units recently completed, and they are now being marketed. And I think they're pretty well sold out. I'm looking at Karen for verification. So these are really beautiful. We toured these the other day. They're really lovely, lovely homes in a beautiful setting. And this is just a wonderful community. So once we build new homes, we do provide ongoing monitoring and support. So some of that is making sure that the residents are in the units, they're not renting them out, et cetera. But more importantly, we are always there to help homeowners if they indeed need some assistance. And that is we're providing technical assistance to existing condominium, older condominium projects. We would like to do more of this. and many more. and the City. Through Karen's Boston Home Center, we are providing homeowners with ongoing repair programs and new heating systems for our seniors. That program is busier than ever, making sure that we're supporting our existing homeowners. And Jeffrey Alkins and his team at the Boston Home Center are providing foreclosure prevention services. If indeed homeowners get into any kind of trouble, both doing it in-house and then working with talented nonprofits to make sure that we're working with the lenders to restructure or work with the homeowners to find a solution. So it's rare that we're one and done. It's more typical that we continue to work with our home buyers to ensure that they're successful decades to come. Rick, I don't know if you have anything to add or if you're just here for questions. Okay, very good. So we'll wrap up our piece of the presentation. Thank you.

Very good, thank you. I've just been joined by Councillor Fitzgerald and Councillor Webber. I think that's it. Got you to go. Next we will... Hilary from Baja, have you got anything to say at this stage?

Please. Happy to answer questions about Maha, how we interact with folks before, during, and after purchase, some of the organizing and advocacy and current research we're doing. So I don't need to make a big statement, but I'm happy to answer questions about that. But we partner really closely with the city. and with the council. The other thing I just want to underline from the community perspective that I've been doing this 38 years and in that time we've had about 3,000 units. Produced or on the books and now we've finally got a real energy behind creating more of these opportunities. We graduate collectively in Boston over 5,500 really, really, really deserving, sincere first-time homebuyers who want a place in the city every year. So these units are really important to us. and the long-term success of and we are here. Our phone number is available to help anybody who gets themselves or finds themselves in a situation whether it be because of construction issues or other things and we would work Thank you. Thank you. for Condo 202. So I'm really eager to hear more about from the other testifiers today and work with the council and with these really great folks who are Really working hard here on homeownership. Thank you.

Excellent. So we'll move now to councillor questions. See, I have to go back and find my... Oh, it's not that one. Oh, is it this one?

Technology sometimes is... Yeah, this makes me nervous. The bomb.

Okay, we'll move to council.

Do normal back in the day, just the phone.

Just the phone. You underestimate my technical skills.

I'm looking at that.

I'm like, you don't know which way to start. Hang on. Time up. Hang on. We'll move this up. Oh, look at us. Yeah, we're getting there. That's good? Excellent. So we'll start with the lead sponsor, Councillor Mejia. You have six minutes to ask questions of the panel and we'll start the clock now. Thank you.

Off you go. So I just want to thank the administration again. When we filed this hearing, we really wanted to get into the weeds of some of the issues that have been brought to our attention, specifically I'm just going to dive in a little bit deeper into the Father Martin homes. And can you all just clarify for us the current debt? to loan terms. Because I think what is happening is that we're really super excited to create as many pathways to home ownership. But what is happening is that sometimes things are not clear. People get into spaces and places with one set and then it's something else right and that I think is what's happening at Father Martin and so if you could just provide us some understanding of what the current if you happen to know, the current debt and loan terms of the Father of Mine house, and whether or not forgiving or restructuring them has ever been considered.

Sure. Yeah. Thank you, Councilor. That's a great question. The Father Martin loan right now is a balance of $636,000, and that loan was actually restructured just a few years ago in 2021. It's a no-interest loan. It matures in 2044. Right now, there's annual payment, or up until this year, the annual payments have been $10,000 a year. Nope, that's the total loan for the property. That is scheduled to go up at the end of this year to $20,000 a year. And then it would, so the way we restructured it It was 10,000 for a number of years, and it went up to 20,000, and then I think it goes to 30,000 in a few years from now. So we are always willing and ready to talk about restructuring loans if the need arises. We always want to make sure we're doing our due diligence. in working with the property to know what their needs are, what they can afford, what their capital needs are. But yeah, we're always willing to talk to residents. Again, this one was just restructured not that long ago.

Do they own? Are they owners?

Yes. Yes, it's co-op owned by the residents.

Okay, because there seems to be a little bit of, like, they're paying for the maintenance, they're doing all of these things, but they...

They're owners. They are owners. They are owners, yes. There was that co-op. was part of a co-op initiative in the 90s. Some of them, there were five developments citywide, and some of them decided or opted or decide to become rental housing again owned by a nonprofit, but Father Walter Martin is owned by the residents. Thank you for that clarity.

And how does the city ensure a fair and competitive bidding process? This is just more around construction and repair work in city-sponsored housing projects. Are there enough qualified contractors participating, and how many bidders on average do you see per project?

Do you mean new development counselor or just more rehab programs? Both. Okay. Do you want to speak to the...

On the new construction. Yeah, I mean, new construction, you know, we issue, if we're putting out a piece of land for homeownership development or any development, you know, we have to follow state law, Chapter 30B. We put out an RFP. We work with the community to put that together. We have lots of meetings. Councilor, you know all this. You probably participate in a lot of these. And to make sure we're putting in the RFP the kinds of developments that the community wants in terms of the Look and feel and size and unit mix. We often almost always get multiple responses. I don't have that number. I know you were I think maybe hoping to hear specific numbers. We can certainly compile that. It's not typical for us to get no responses or even one response. We usually get multiple responses for our land. The criteria is all spelled out in the RFP as to how we're going to evaluate the responses as far as the developer capacity We do a ton of work to make sure that our opportunities are known throughout the city. provide a lot of technical assistance to small development teams, especially in recent years, to try to get new players in the arena.

Great, thank you. Just because I'm looking at my time. Sorry. I got lots of questions.

Sorry.

But I'm going back to Father Martin real quick. Just because from what we've learned, or at least from what has been shared with the residents to our office is that There were some discrepancies in terms of what they signed up for 30-something years ago and what it actually is now. Some folks have talked about language barriers. Some folks have talked about not fully understanding what they were literally signing up for. So can you just talk to us about just for the sake of the exercise, kind of walk us through when someone enters into the agreement of being a homeowner in a co-op situation. What are the clear expectations that are shared with them? What are the disclosures? What do people need to know? Because things have changed significantly for the folks there. So if you can talk to us about communication over the decades and regarding this particular project.

So given it was a cooperative and it was built, I think, in the 90s, I don't know exactly It was developed by the South Boston NDC, if I remember correctly, and they worked with the first residents. I don't know exactly what was conveyed decades ago, I do know Riana Bernal is here and she's working with the residents and they've recently had a consultant. So, but I think we have heard More generally, not talking about Father Martin right now, but we have heard that some of the homebuyers that are buying deed-restricted units have not, they haven't felt that the information has been clear enough. So now it is. Baked Into Every Home Buying Class. We've done a much better job, I think, providing really clear disclosures. We're encouraging buyers to work with their attorneys We really want to make sure that they know exactly what they're signing up for, the obligations and the benefits. But I could maybe go back in our files on the Walter Martin Cooperative and see if there's, like, Some documentation I could give you, but I don't know what was provided in the 90s. My time was up and I was trying to... She just wiped the whole thing.

I did. I tried to eliminate it.

Thank you, Councillor Mejia. Next up is Councillor Worrell, the other lead sponsor who's here.

Thank you, Chair. One of my questions is around the Boston Home Centre work around foreclosures. Can you give me a breakdown? Is that mostly? Residents that are like own their home not through the affordable housing or like how's that breakdown on who are helping? Is that mostly affordable home ownership people or?

No, it's we help any resident in the city of Boston that is facing challenges. So far I can tell you that since 2022 we have helped around 516 homeowners to be able to stay and save their home. and we work directly with lenders.

Right, and the majority of that are not affordable homeowners.

Yeah, there is a mix, a mix between affordable homeowners and market rate.

I will say, if I can just add, it's very rare that, I mean, it's really rare. I mean, I think I can count in the last two or couple years like two cases or something where someone's in a deed-restricted unit Karen and her team require 30-year fixed, really good mortgage products, and what they're buying is affordable, and we're tracking them really closely because they have to notify us If a bank wants to foreclose, so we're all over it. So it's really rare that someone loses their affordable home.

That's good to hear. And I love to see the progress. around the BHA housing program. Can you talk to me about 84 home buyers? What was it years before? Can you talk to me year over year, the growth?

So I don't have the exact data and I can get it to you, but they grow, I will say, 200% of the history of what I heard from, you know, it was probably... 20 homeowners if I'm not mistaking from years years until now in less than three years two years they did 84 and I know that they're projecting to do more so it has been really a pivotal change and Home Ownership for BHA.

Awesome. And I just want to thank the BHA, your team, and also my council colleagues. Through Opera Dollars, we were able to invest in that position. So shout out to that whole team.

And I just want to add that for the BHA, it's like one of those I think it's the only program in the country right now that is really focused on BHA and the voucher holders that is making a difference.

Yeah, shout out to them. Great, great. I believe it's a great program. When it comes to, yep, sorry.

As soon as a one plus Boston or one outside of Boston person misses a payment when they go beyond their 30 days, we affirmatively Reach out to them. We get their names and contact information and just call with a friendly neighborhood person saying, hey, is there something we can do and if they are in trouble we will help them renegotiate with their lender or do whatever it is you know help them access resources that they might not know about so we don't wait for foreclosure. They missed 30-day payment, they got us.

That's good to hear that we're being so proactive and on top of it. That's awesome. The other question I have is when it comes to affordable home ownership, and affordable rental. Are there different restrictions? Like can you earn more money on an affordable rental and then an affordable home ownership? Like are you capped at how much money you can earn while you're in the space? Any restrictions like that?

So if I understand your question, so if I'm a tenant in a building, right, and the vast majority of them are affordable in perpetuity, and you're right, I can increase my earnings up into a certain percentage over what the original number was and then I'm going to be given some time to leave. With home ownership, the current affordability term is 30 years. and you can become a millionaire and stay in your unit. So you are never asked to leave your home once you buy it.

Okay. But are there any other restrictions that are different between the two, affordable home ownership versus affordable rentals?

The resale, right? So, right. I mean, and, you know, if there is a vacancy in a rental development, the management company and the owner is going to take care of that. If somebody wants to leave their affordable home, the one that they own, They're going to be contacting us and they're going to be working with us on a maximum resale price and finding a buyer.

CPA funding. I hear from developers all the time that it's harder to build home ownership Development. Do we give funding knowing that developers feel like it's harder to do homeownership projects? Do we give more funding to subsidize that cost when it's affordable homeownership versus affordable rentals?

There's less resources for affordable homeownership. If it's an affordable rental project, we're tapping into taxes and bonds and low-income housing tax credits and other resources at the state and the federal government sometimes. But with homeownership, really, it's us and the state. And now the state, their Commonwealth Builder Program is oversubscribed, so it's us. So it just becomes harder for the city to continue with the same volume as we have been. Right. We've got to think that through.

Yeah, yeah, we'd love to think that through and try to make sure that we're still investing and getting more homeownership inventory out there. My last question is around The number of, and I believe Hillary said, is it 3,000 affordable home ownership units here in the city of Boston? I think it is 3,000. And that's including the numbers, the 526 and the 368, or that's in addition?

I think it's in addition to. It's in addition to. Chris is nodding. I'm nodding. We're going to get you an exact number and make sure that the 3,000 number is updated with the current completions. All right. Thank you.

Louijeune, you're next. You have the floor. Thank you, Councilor Breadon, and thank you again to the administration for being here. Chief Dillon, you talked about the housing cooperatives in the 90s that decided to still remain cooperatives. and I was hoping that you would say the names. Is Meth Union one of, Meth Union in the South End, is that one of them?

Oh, yeah, that's a cooperative. That wasn't the BHP fives they called them. There were these five. Yeah, there's a lot of resident-owned developments in the city. Some of them are cooperative. Some of them are resident-owned and controlled.

So the limited equity home ownership, there's also some of those as well. I know they have them in. in Cambridge, limited equity home ownership models.

Yeah. I mean, we do a lot of limited equity, and sometimes people like that, and some people don't like that. But we can get you over a list, I think, of resident-controlled developments in the city. Grant Manor is one, right? Mandela was, and then it wasn't. So there was these older, very federally-funded developments and then the city attempted to recreate co-ops or really have a new co-op initiative. It is interesting that Boston just, there's not, like New York City, every building on every block is a co-op and that hasn't been, The structure that people have preferred here, both home buyers and nonprofits and for-profits developing affordable housing. So I think we're always very, very interested in doing more cooperatives. We think it's a great ownership structure. It doesn't resonate here as much as it does other places.

What are some of the challenges with the structure?

We have found that it's hard for, and this isn't criticism, this is just fact, it's hard for low and moderate income households to raise housing costs on themselves. and so it's hard for them to keep pace with the expenses associated with running the co-op or the building and then there could be 10, 15, 20 years of deferred maintenance and then all of a sudden there's a crisis. We see that with some frequency. Sometimes it's there wasn't the right amount of technical assistance to set up the co-op board and then that becomes a crisis because The members of the board see governance different, and so we're sometimes mediating or trying to find resolution. So I think it's governance, and it's actually resources to continue to function and really run a good housing development.

Thank you. My next question is about home ownership opportunities. Right now, we're in phase three of the Welcome Home Boston program. And Chief Dillon, and I know I've had many conversations With Hillary about this, the effort to make, and what I understand is phase three, the effort to make market housing affordable. Can you talk a little bit about that model and about whether you're seeing success and how we're getting there? Right? And the intention is so that residents don't have to buy deed-restricted properties, but aren't necessarily buying homes at the market prices, the median price that when Director Barraza was showing us of 789,000, which is, I think there was data, the last one I think has come down slightly, where it was actually at a million, and then it's come down a little bit. Maybe it's slightly different figures. as to why that work is important. That's why I want to highlight that. So these are not deed restricted, but these are not the insane prices that are on the market. And how are we trying to hit that sweet spot?

So Welcome Home 3, because of Thank you for joining us. So as a trial balloon, as a test, we put out 10 parcels of land, not that large. And the RFP said, here's land at a discounted value. But we want developers to come in with a better price point that's below the market so we can sell units to middle, high middle income families. The RFP is due next week. So it'd be interesting to see. We also want them to look at different construction methodologies. Could we use modular or offsite technologies to bring down costs? So we're really asking the developers, probably smaller developers given the development is small, to do their best thinking and help us think through how we can get our residents into units, by units, without putting in large amounts of subsidy. So we'd be glad to share when those RFPs come in and share with your staff or yourself just what we received because I think we're trying to learn from this.

Thank you. And then a follow-up question from that is, how do we ensure that the people who are actually then putting bids on the homes are that target population in a way that complies with the law to make sure that people who aren't the one, you know, competing on what is an open market for those properties aren't people who could afford the median price.

We're going to income certify and do a lottery.

Yes.

We are going to income certify and do a lottery, but there won't be Long-term deed restrictions on the property.

But there may be some form of a restriction on the property?

I think we're thinking short-term because the prices are going to be closer to market.

That makes, thank you for explaining that because I was, I've been sort of like with, in my head trying to figure out how do you make this model work and I think that that's probably the only way that you can do it but then there's a trade-off up and then you then have to Put some sort of something on it.

I've got to say, we're struggling. We're struggling with how do we incentivize the market to do other than higher end luxury. It's imperfect. Our thought process is imperfect. And so we'd love ideas where we've had workshops, we've talked to developers, we've looked at the issue a lot. But we're still open for new ideas. Because I've been frustrated, struggling with, like in other markets, you say, hey, we have a need. And then the market responds. and with real estate, we have a need and the market doesn't necessarily respond to that need. So it's just been, we've been trying to like, I don't know, force that marriage.

Thank you. I know my time is up. I know that Hilary has some ideas on this too, but we can save that for the next round.

Hilary, do you want to respond to that? I'll give you a few minutes. A minute.

OK. I would just say it serves a different market. For most of the people, about 86% of the people that come out of Maha's classes make below 80% AMI. We are at a four-alarm fire on making sure that we have state subsidy and that the city can continue to work. to make some affordable homes available because that's where we're seeing the market is really. That's where our people are. Not that there aren't people who are going to buy these units and be really happy to get them, but it's not where the bulk of what we're seeing is the need. So on to the state.

Next is Councillor Fitzgerald. You have the floor.

Councillor Fitzgerald Thank you, Chair. And thank you, panel, for being here today. Much appreciated. Couple of things. So one, I noticed that, not noticed, but I know that a lot of this investment lately has been through the ARPA money. The sustainability of that, now with that going away, And I think we've asked this question before in past panels as well, but I just want to make sure of, have we put in place now the sustainability to continue that, or are things going to go away with upper money not happening in those investments? Out of no deal.

It's a challenge, Councilor, right now. The ARPA funding has been a real godsend. We put tens of millions of dollars into homeownership as well as AOP and everything else that you've all been very supportive of. CPA has become an important source for us for homeownership projects. Inclusionary Development Program revenue is another source that we frequently use for homeownership. But yeah, the sources are dwindling. So I would say it's something we're working on. I think you know we've have all gone for property transfer fee at the state. That has not been successful. I think we, you know, we want to, Look for additional sources for this. But like Sheila said, we have a healthy, healthy, I think we have over 1,000 units in the pipeline, in addition to all the units that are in construction right now and that have been completed in recent years.

Thanks, Rick. The only thing I would add is that Karen and her team have done a careful analysis of our down payment programs. And we've needed to reduce the size of our down payment assistance. just so we can continue to help 250, 300 people or families a year. So those numbers have come down. We will make exceptions if somebody really is on the edge and they need additional down payment to buy the home. We're going to be there for them. But we think that we can reduce the down payment assistance. They won't have as much equity, but we'll continue to be able to help as many buyers as we have been.

Understood. Thank you. So thinking of the homeownership construction, I'm seeing this a lot in my district now, where folks will come in and they'll say, we're going to build X amount of units, even if it's six townhouses, and it's always at the community civic meetings and everything. But it's homeownership. Thank you for joining us. A street of homeownerships is actually a street of transient rentals. Is there something in place? Because I know now I have to deal with each different small developer and say, how do I know? And they'll say, we can put it in the covenant, or we can do, right, we can add something, we can make sure. How much teeth do those have on the small level versus anything that we're doing to try and make sure that home ownership doesn't just mean somebody scoops in from out of town and says, I'm going to rent them out?

Fabulous. I was going to say it's a million-dollar question, but it's worth more than that. I think the only—we struggle with this a lot because we're not going to put deed restrictions on market rate real estate. I think if my understanding is though, the developer will be the first person to set up a master condo structure, like a master deed structure with bylaws and things. Like if they would agree, to set it up so that their limited number of the units can be rented. Some condo associations have that structure. At least then, they're agreeing, if they said 100%, they're agreeing at the initial sales that they need to be sold not to investors, but to owner-occupants. At least it gets it off to the right foot, and then maybe if you're all homeowners, you're not gonna want renters, maybe you will keep that in place. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not an expert, but something like, if that was coming in my neighborhood, I would ask for that assurance and see what they say.

Gotcha. I appreciate that, thank you. And I know this is about public expenditures and fiscal oversight, but I just sort of, I guess some of my questions are just more housing in general, because I have you guys in front of me and this is a great crew to ask these questions. In that, the type of units being built, I'm seeing a lot in my district of, you know, we're knocking down a one, two, you know, or a triple deck or something like that, and we're putting in 22 units or 16 units, right? To me, and this is just my opinion, those aren't typically the units where a family says, I'm going to raise my kids in this hallway with 12 other doors off it, and I don't know who lives in this hallway, right? and so I think people just want their little piece of the rock the you know a backyard or front lot whatever it may be right no matter how small just saying this is my house so I'm seeing more and more of these multi-unit housing even if it is Home Ownership. We're building six town homes, and they're all right next to each other, right? but they're sort of changing the character of neighborhoods and I don't know if necessarily it is a more community-oriented type characterization. I worry about that. I don't know if it's a question. I don't know if you guys have anything good or bad to tell me, but how can we make sure there are more family-oriented types of units being built for homeownership so families actually say, I do want to buy that home?

The projects that we're certainly putting on city-owned land or the projects that we're funding have a lot of family units. Even if it's a condominium structure or a townhome, we're seeing smaller families occupy. I don't know if planning has anything to add about the larger market rate developments.

Go ahead, Jeff. We'll get your left.

Okay, thanks. Councilor, I think we're hearing that. I would say that the demand for housing in general is just so high I think that there are people that are living outside the city of Boston right now that are genuinely trying to get in. There are students that are trying to stay. and that is the type of like we're hearing it from developers those are they are trying to provide at and sometimes those units those hallway units while they don't feel like You know, if someone's gonna raise a family there, that might be somebody that's trying to set up life here and then eventually maybe move to a different housing stock. We frankly just don't have and many more. and things like that. We're thinking about those types of issues. We're thinking pretty hard about incentivizing town homes through rezoning to maybe direct Set aside spots where maybe MOH funding can be targeted into these places. Clear hurdles so developers are more incentivized to provide home ownership at a neighborhood scale that feels more familial. So, yeah, I mean, it's definitely a challenge.

I think the only point with that is that, and I'm done, Chad, thank you, but when I look at the vacancy rate of 1.1%, and just think to myself okay there are these units coming on right supply and demand and here we are but are they the type of units that are actually going to bring down the cost For home ownership or are they are we just building you know these 22 unit sort of transient things and it counts as units going online but it really doesn't hit the mark, the folks that we're trying to make sure that housing is affordable for. I guess that was that question. Chair, thank you so much for the time and panel, thank you again.

Thank you. Councillor Webber, you're next. You've got six minutes.

Okay, sure, yeah, I don't know, the discussion about restrictions on sales for the, They brought PTSD from property class in law school. I think there's like a rule against perpetuities that may make some of that difficult in terms of keeping restrictions for too long. But I'm just a wild guess. We have actual lawyers look at that. So I guess one thing I think Councilor Fitzgerald is alluding to with that last comment, We're talking about affordable housing and making housing affordable for people who are here. How do those interact? Helping people own homes, I assume we're trying to help them We want those homes to appreciate in value over time. How do you factor in the impact that it has on housing costs? you know if it's I assume it's gonna raise is we want our homes to get more about become more valuable for the homeowner just do these kinds of programs you run the risk that you're You know, increasing the value of housing for everyone else How do you think about that, Chief?

I mean, we certainly are trying to assist people to buy in the market if that's what they want to do. And Karen's shop is doing that. And a lot of the BHA buyers are buying in the market because their subsidy is so valuable. So those units are going to appreciate, and that's what's going to happen. If the city is putting in, and this may or may not be answering your question, but if the city is putting in a significant amount of money Thank you very much. The appreciation rate is 5%, which very much, if you look over time, mirrors the market. It's just it begins at a much lower price point.

Yeah, no, yeah, I wasn't, I mean, I feel like there's deed restricted housing, and I think that's slightly separate, but if we're helping people buy at the market rate with these aids, like, you know, what kind of impact that's going to have on the overall

Yeah.

Housing market is going to be harder for people who are coming along after if there's more home ownership.

I see. I see. I think, you know, I don't think us helping Thank you. Thank you.

In terms of these programs, do we have a dollar figure on how much we have available to give out to people? because I know some are loans and we're trying to get them loans, but do you have like a sense of what the dollar figures, maybe you even said it?

Yeah, in our, so for, for, Down payment and financial assistance. I think what's in the city budget is about $4 million a year, right? And the annual budget is $4 million. And we add to that, if we get CPA funding, we can add CPA funding to that. CDBG, right, HUD, CDBG funding to that as well. So, I mean, it varies a little from one year to the next. And then, of course, over the past three years, we've had ARPA, which we've, that was 15 million of ARPA.

So, with CDBG, it's between about 6 million.

6 million. and then how much of that are we able to give out? Is there any, what percentage are we able to actually allocate? The entire?

It's 150% gone.

There was a time where we struggled to spend our budget. Not lately, the past few years.

So the goal, just to give you an idea, the goal is always to serve 250. Bires, right? So last year we did help with the ARPA, of course, 376. And looking at the pipeline that we have right now, it seems like we're going to be at the same number which is concerning right because we don't have ARPA anymore and this is when now we have to figure it out yeah so now this is where I always talk to Rick about that but You know, those are things that we're looking in a day-to-day in the structure of our down payment assistance.

Okay. And then maybe I'm just... Is it all for new construction? And then I guess my follow-up question to that is, if the supply, if we have a housing crisis and we're not building enough housing, is that a problem? The supply of housing so we can get that money. And maybe we're talking about such small numbers that it's not an issue. But is there any issue with helping people with these funds buy housing because we don't have enough housing to buy?

I think it's hard for a moderate income family to find a unit. I mean, that's absolutely true, although they're buying They exist in the market. They're buying older homes. They're buying older condominiums. They're buying condominiums and triple-deckers, and they're buying the housing stock that we're creating. I don't know if I've ever seen a actually a summary of that level. I'm sure you have it, but we could look at that and get it to you.

Okay, my last quick question is just where, You know, the last few years where the housing is being purchased. Have you presented that?

Yeah, I do have that, and I can send it to you, but... For example, Mattapan, 127 from now are 1,059 recipients of financial assistance. Dorchester, 188.

When you say Mattapan, I apologize, Chair, just to clarify. Are you talking about? So these are residents of Mattapan buying in Mattapan?

Oh, we can get you that data.

Are the units in Mattapan?

Those are buyers. That's where they're buying.

Because you can live somewhere and use that.

We can get you that data.

Dirkken.

Have you been ready for some questions for the panel?

Okay, you've got six minutes. Thank you. So one of my points of advocacy has been that if we're using either publicly owned land or essentially subsidizing CDCs or other... and many other non-profit developers that we actually get the best deal in terms of density because sometimes, you know, We've all been to a ribbon cutting for something that's like a two family and you're looking next door and someone's proposing a six story building. So I was just curious, I just wanted to get your thoughts on And I know, Sheila, we've gone back and forth about all these things. Or Chief, I'm sorry. But we've gone back and forth about these things because it all is about context. But I'm just curious sort of how the city feels about sort of maximizing our you know amount of you know money spent I know there's a lot of different Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. about the existing context and working within the existing context at the same time we know that we need to build more housing probably at a higher density than what was built generations ago. For me, I'm always trying to find the compromise. So if we're building You know, if it's a triple-decker site, can we do four units? Can we do five units, right? If people really want single families, can we work with the community to build instead three, four, five, six town homes? So I think even on the smaller lots, we're always trying to find Something that works for the neighborhood, but also pushes the number of units being created. So if there is a site that Thank you for joining us. High Density, Near Transit. So there's places that really we are going to support, not regardless, we're always listening to community, but we're really going to be advocates for very dense housing.

because for me it's really about helping the most people with our limited public resources. So I'm just curious, I know there are sort of some different schemes and deals that exist. Some are that we will, I don't know if it's $10 or $1,000 or $100, whatever it is. I think that's kind of where my point of advocacy is coming from. I have been to some ribbon cuttings for like two and four family type deals on what I know to be formerly City of Boston owned land. and I don't need to get into any specific incidences, but I just do think it's important that we actually prioritize. If a private developer next door would build a six family or six story or, you know, I do think it's really important that we're McHugh. I know this is such a big hearing order so I want to thank Councilor Mejia for calling for it. I'm just curious. I know there's a lot of different ways that we've helped people obtain housing. I have been a big advocate of the BHA to home ownership. I just kind of was curious if You had an update on whether that program could continue without ARPA funding.

It can and it is. I think Karen reported we have 85 buyers today in a pipeline of new homeowners. We're able to provide much deeper down payments now. We're not going to be able to do that, but we can certainly continue to assist. I don't know if you...

Yeah, no, our goal is we're meeting very closely with BHA on a monthly basis and, you know, just to really continue to make sure that that program continues. Very, I want to say very good ambition goals that we have in common for the future of the program. So as of right now, we're utilizing ARPA funding and there is still more ARPA that is going to be utilized for this program. it's gonna go you know once the ARPA funding goes away then we will see but it is really a priority for us.

And one of my guiding themes as a city councilor that works on a lot of development given the district that I have is that I don't let competitors decide what competitors do. So if someone's proposing I don't let the person who's competing with this other developer So with that in mind, just wanted to ask sort of the role of CDCs. I find that oftentimes they are opposing other development projects. in order to extract sort of resources out of like community benefits and mitigation agreements. So I was just curious and I think this is relevant to public housing because CDCs are often Not wholly subsidized by the city, but we absolutely contribute and work with them. I just wanted to ask if the administration has sort of an opinion on CDC's wing and on development projects. Given that potentially the ultimate goal is for them to be resourced out of those arrangements, I find that conversation and Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. and so forth. And I think that's the desire of result which is more housing, more people in housing and that people that have potential conflicts aren't weighing in on other people's projects in order. I don't ever want to be in a I'm being asked to do anything that I think is unethical so I was just curious. I know this is a very loaded question but I would love to hear the administration's answer.

So I can't answer for planning, but I will give you my opinion and then hand it over to planning. But I'm hopeful that a nonprofit that is always evaluating a market rate development for what's best for the community, what they've heard, what their mission is. and not what they're going to personally extract from it. Sometimes you're right though, a developer will be working with a nonprofit and the nonprofit will be helping them meet their inclusionary development requirements. And so they're working very closely together, but still I'm hopeful that They wouldn't be in that partnership unless they felt like the market rate development was good overall.

And I guess my broader question is, how does the city make sure that we are actually upholding ethics in these conversations?

Jeff, you can finish that while we move to the next person. Thank you.

Yeah, to the extent that we see that, obviously our project managers have been made aware. I mean, whenever a market rate project's in front of us, we know that there's Sort of like this competition for resources that various parties are competing for. I think that's one of the things that we're trying to address through Article 80 reform, frankly. We introduced recently a disclosure so we can put people's interests out in public and make sure that people are coming to the process with An open mind and a clean bill. I think that we're just going to constantly have to manage that.

It's like you read my letter on that. Okay, well, I'll let you go. I think that that answers my question, so thank you so much. Thank you.

So I'm going to take six minutes for myself and start. I'm going to repeat and start. Okay. All right. I was wondering about, you know, when we did home buying classes, I took one a long time ago, and we were buying it like a two family. Homebuyer classes were focused very much on regular homes, but I do feel that, are we increasing the number of Homebuyer classes that are more focused on condominium purchases because it is a sort of different animal. Could you speak to that, Hilary?

Yeah, I can say it. At Maha, we have a home buyer 101, which everybody takes. But then there's a, you can either do home owner 201 or condo owner 202. So if you're thinking about buying a condo, I highly encourage people to take the condo class even though it's not required until after you buy the condo. We really emphasize that it's good to understand what condos are about and to be able to evaluate them before you're stuck in one. So we definitely have a single track.

And are there particular pitfalls? Like, would you like to sort of speak to this particular misunderstandings and pitfalls that someone who buys a condo, sometimes they get, they have an unpleasant experience because they've had different assumptions.

Right, so that happens both with the affordables and also with the market rate deals. I do think there's probably a need. The city has moved to provide more assistance and worked with us on revamping the curriculum. But there may be need for more TA for condo associations and even beyond like what the city can do but if there are say pro bono legal resources and other things for condo associations because I have heard Recently from someone who was so fed up and won that she moved out. and now she's calling me with an SOS signal from the one she moved into. And these are not, you know, it's not an issue only for the affordables, but it's important for all the reasons everybody's talking about to make sure that All the investments and the homeowners are really in good shape in those affordable ones and then figure out what we can do for the private market.

And what sort of technical assistance does the city offer to condo associations or folks We have one building that was built next to a market rate building and the building was affordable home ownership. So I think it's almost entirely like affordable home ownership, but finding that they don't necessarily have the technical

I can tell you that, Councillor, that we have been closely working with Maha to revamp that curriculum for the condo class and everyone that comes to us and asks questions or has concerns about condo We do provide technical assistance. We're working with a vendor that actually sits down with them, look at the financials, see the structures of the condo. We try to find solutions and help them financially when it comes into that. One of the things that we do require is for them to take the condo class that we revamped with Maha. And I will be happy to share with you the curriculum, which is a really good curriculum. And we actually monitored and we had a specialized Person, sit down and really see if there was an actual, if the curriculum would cover all the concerns that we had. So we do provide that. We're seeing more and more of the affordable condos, especially for those that are under 14 units, right? So we're working with them. One of the biggest challenges that we carry is finance when it comes into assessments. But we do do that. I don't know if you have anything.

I just want to add, I think it is, That's one of the problems of our time, that we have these older, mostly affordable condominiums. And They need a lot of technical assistance. Karen's right. We have a person on contract that's working with many of them. Some of them need lots of resources for deferred maintenance. So I really do think that we all need to put our heads together and kind of come up with budget and solutions for some of these older condominiums. They're good communities. They're nice people who live in them. They're a great housing resource, but they Unlike an affordable rental project that's going to get recapitalized in 30 years, these don't. So we've got to figure out a solution.

OK. And then with regard to the co-ops, Is it a similar sort of situation with co-ops that they don't set aside enough money for long-term maintenance? Like if you don't maintain, you're going to end up with a big disaster at some stage.

Some of them. Certainly are right now dealing with that issue. Okay.

And then I think we touched on it earlier. The other question I had, because I don't want to repeat something that's already been talked about. Contractors when when is there sort of a quality stamp or you know quality standards that we've heard of homeownership places that Like six or ten years after the building was built their homes were built that they were having some pretty serious problems that seems like a really short timeline to have Do we have any metrics by which we have good actors and not so good actors in the construction world?

To the best of my knowledge, there's no list of, I mean, there's no list that, you know, beware of this contractor. I do think that oftentimes people call up, they'll be in market rate developments, and there's very little the city can do except suggest they get an attorney. If somebody is income eligible and they're getting hit with a very large assessment that they can't manage, then Karen's team will potentially and oftentimes assist the income qualified Thank you. Thank you. and really the developers. The owners just need to get together and figure it out. We don't get involved.

Okay, thank you. My time's up. We're going to a second round. Councilor Mejia, we're going to reduce the time. To four minutes, so you have the floor.

I have four questions, so that means I'm going to ask my four questions and then y'all can answer them. We'll do the best we can here. So I want to go back to the reason why we filed this hearing order to begin with is to better understand some of the issues that we heard. I'm going to go back to the Father Martin property. There's some discrepancies from the numbers that you shared and the numbers that I get from community. You all are talking about $636,000 and some things that I've been hearing from community has been 5.2 million. That's a big discrepancy. So if you could just kind of help us understand kind of what your understanding is of what they owe and where that is, that would be great. And I also would like to better understand, they're unclear whether or not they're equity partners or Equity Owners. Which is it? Because it's unclear as to kind of how we're clarifying who they are and how they see themselves. So I think that that would be really helpful. because they entered into this with one set of agreement. Now, 30 years later, there's some confusion. So if we can just clear for the record, that would be great. And that we're seeing that affordable housing continues to change the name of what that looks like for low income residents, particularly those who are making up in the cooperative space. You know, some folks are low income, but everything that's happening around them is, you know, the property values are growing. So I'm just curious, what options are there available for aging cooperatives? particularly those that are restricted through LIHTC regulations to continue meeting their capital needs while protecting their long-term affordability of residence. especially retirees who are on fixed income. So just kind of if you can help me understand that. And then the other group of folks that we've been hearing from are the folks from Intent City in terms of governance, in terms of agency around kind of like The role that they play, right? It was built on city property. The city's kind of a little bit of hands off in terms of the governance. So I'm just curious if we can help us understand kind of like what the tension is with Tenth City. So those are the four.

That's great. I'm going to have Rihanna Burnell come down, really, who's been working with the Father Martin Cooperative folks very closely. If I could, while she comes down, I'll just mention Tenth City. TenCity was built on BRA land. It has a pretty large loan from the I think it's BRA. I think it's a BRA loan, not a planning loan. There is capital needs. There's been some governance. Not board issues, but board training. And there's a recent election. People are feeling very good that the governance is really coming together. They've got a lot of support right now from good affordable housing consultants to really think about a restructuring and a refinancing. that would deal with the capital needs. So that work is ongoing. The lenders are meeting on a very, very regular basis to ensure that TenCity does the right thing and support the residents that are there. So probably will it be more to report on TenCity in the upcoming months than there is right now, but I'm feeling like the issues are being, like, They're being understood, especially the work that's needed to really revitalize Ten City. And now we're starting to work on how that could possibly get paid for in the election. A new election of residents just happened, and so I think they're getting up to speed. But with that, I'm going to hand it over for a summary of Father Walter.

Hi. So you asked a number of questions. I might need to ask again what those were. But you asked for some clarification on the amounts that are due. So we will verify this for sure but there are I think three loans on the property and one of them is was A crude interest that was put into a silent loan and what I have here is about seven and a half million dollars and that's outstanding and is due in 2044. And who owns that? Who owns that? The Father Martin Co-op, yep.

The poor people that lived there all that. That's a big chunk of change.

Yeah, it was a crude interest from when the property was built in the 90s. and the reason why we couldn't forgive all of that interest is because of their structure, their corporate structure is a limited partnership and if we forgave it all it was going to have tax implications for the corporation that would that were negative, so would negatively impact the corporation. So with all their attorneys' advice, we did what we could to forgive as much as we could. And I think that that can be reconsidered in the future. with guidance from attorneys and tax consultants. Let's see, there was another question about their structure and I think the limited equity model. So right now they are still under their limited partnership because in order for them to convert to a complete co-op ownership, that was when they restructured or when that tax, I forget exactly, there was a period of time in which we restructured the loans and it was decided that at the time that that limited partnership Was it going to stay as it was instead of convert to limited equity?

I have a question. I'm so curious, and I'm sorry. But I just really need to understand this. So if I am making an assumption that I own the property and now I'm told I'm more of a partner, at the end of the day, do I own that? Thank you. Thank you.

The property and the people that live in the units rent from the co-op. And they are members of the cooperative that owns the property. So the cooperative as an organization, as an entity, is responsible for repayment of the loans.

So not the residents? Correct. Okay, so that's really good clarity. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. But that's still because the residents are doing all the maintenance and upkeep and they're acting like they really do believe. For those who are tuning in, you're not the owners, okay? Just want you all to know you are partners. You don't own it. So just want to be clear about that. Because there is an assumption. There has been an assumption for folks that they are the owners of that land. and I don't, or maybe I made an assumption, I don't know, but there is some confusion there, so thank you for helping us understand the difference between both. Can you talk to us a little bit about What's happening around the neighborhood and how that impacts? It seems like we keep moving the goalposts in terms of the affordability.

In terms of income restrictions on the units?

Yeah, so if I came in as low income, right, and I'm on a fixed income, how are we protecting people who then find themselves at a lower financial bracket. What kind of accommodations are made for folks?

Well, so this property is restricted with a tax credit regulatory agreement, and the City of Boston Housing and so the units themselves have income restrictions and those haven't changed. are aren't anticipated to change unless there is a request made to the state and the city to make a modification where we could reduce the amount of income somebody needs in order to qualify for a unit. I think maybe your question is about if they're living there and their income goes down, can they have an adjustment on their rent? So that's not because there's no subsidy on any of these units? The rent is set at whatever the cooperative is setting the rents at, but at the same time there is a maximum amount that the rent

Rihanna, is it fair to say that the co-op or their agent could apply for, I mean vouchers are in short supply these days, but they could apply for a project-based, and I think Mr. Lynch, last time he was here, was sort of advocating for that. They could apply for vouchers and project base them. and that would help with some of the lower income residents there. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, and we have had conversations with Father Walter Martin over the years about applying for city vouchers and so I think they were even in here earlier this year advocating for more city vouchers for that reason. So we've encouraged them when that RFP comes out to apply. Thank you.

Thank you. How are we doing with the questions? Well, I don't know.

I still have a lot of questions. Okay. I know that about you, Councillor May. I expected you'd have a lot of questions. You're the lead sponsor. So, Councillor Worrell? I'm trying to figure out how much time everybody needs, but let's try this.

15 minutes.

15 minutes? No, I'm joking. Six minutes. Six minutes.

Are you able to provide a breakdown of how much funding goes into affordable rental versus affordable home ownership? on a yearly basis, like from the city budget? City budget, right. Absolutely. Awesome. And can you do that over like a five year?

Sure.

Like for 2021? No problem at all. Awesome. And then just to kind of understand like the demand, I know Hillary mentioned that they graduate 5,500 people. on a yearly basis. But can we see when there's a new unit up, what the wait list looks like for home ownership? Yeah.

I mean, so if it's new, if it's a new development, we're marketing, like Karen said, within, you know, like, I think four months before the unit has a CFO, we're starting to market. So we, those units are going into a lottery. Right. if an affordable unit exists already. And there's no lottery, of course. Mrs. Jones has an affordable unit. She wants to move to Florida. She's just going to work with us and a broker or just herself. and sell the unit. So we wouldn't have a, we wouldn't have a, like there'd be no way of tracking how long that took.

Right, and I get it. I guess I feel like the new units, it'll kind of be interesting to see. How many people signed up for that lottery?

Okay, sure, lottery versus how many units were available.

Right.

Okay, no problem.

And then I'm a big believer of deed restrictions, just knowing that the income levels or the medium household income is not moving as fast as home prices. And if we were to lift those deed restrictions, Not everyone, as we mentioned earlier, can afford $789,000 on the open market. But I do think that those that are in affordable home ownership should be eligible for first-time homebuyer programs again in order to buy in the open market. Can you share me your thoughts on that?

We are starting to make that policy change in selected cases. So I know it's something the mayor has put forward as something that she wants to adopt. I don't know if it's 100% in place at this point, Karen.

Yes, it is 100% in place. In fact, I already heard from my first homeowner that wants to see if, wants to sell their They're affordable home and really try to go market rate. That's awesome.

And just to kind of get an idea, how much equity are they leaving with and then the down payment assistance?

We haven't got that far because we just get the confirmation. But I mean, they will qualify for our same down payment assistance, like 2%, 3% plus closing cost. and what I'm trying to do with them because they wouldn't qualify for the OnePlus Boston or any MHP products. I know that we're working with Mass Housing. Mass Housing does have a product that it could work with them and I'm also looking at portfolio lenders that we're going to be able to provide affordable portfolio programs for this homeowner.

Were they not qualified for the one because they have too many assets?

No, because they follow the three-year... In order to re-qualify for the OnePlus or any MHP products, you will have not owned a home in the past three years. So this homeowner would have to wait three years in order to reapply.

All right, which is not bad, but we should be able to make it work for everyone, right? My other question is around, do we know the medium income level for the buyers that are buying affordable home ownership?

So our highest percentage is 80% of AMI. And I can get you the exact number if you want.

All right, that would be awesome.

But we do have the highest percentage.

and for planning, goal seven in Boston's 2023 assessment of fair housing is to reduce the disparity in home ownership rates by race and ethnicity. And then under federal law, specifically under Title 24 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Sections 5.150 and 5.154, The city is required to use zoning and planning authority to affirmatively further fair housing. So how is the planning department using its zoning tools, especially when granting relief or approving large-scale developments to actively expand home ownership opportunities for historically excluded communities? And just as importantly, will the current data on housing production support progress toward that goal? And if you do have any, we'd love to see the data as well.

Yeah, to the extent I can provide data on that, I will definitely get back to you on it. In terms of issuing entitlements, we're not legally allowed to basically exclude rental. I think we're constantly working with, through Article 80 process, we are constantly working with developers to try to move them into Move them towards offering homeownership units. I think that's something we all prefer. Obviously, there are challenges in the current lending market. It's a riskier investment for lenders, and they've been a little bit less likely to fund home ownership projects, I think, in this particular market. But, Councilor, I think we're We're very aligned in trying to use all of our tools available to us. Legally, it's just difficult. I think from a zoning perspective I talked earlier a little bit like our mentality is trying to clean up the zoning code and rezone areas so that There are essentially natural incentives in place for proponents to come in and feel good about offering a home ownership project. We're doing our best there, obviously. you know we got a long way to go um so you know and you know we really appreciate your office's support in that and in those initiatives and we look forward to working with you in the future on it thank you yeah and i just have to continue to advocate and i know

With everyone on this panel, we have been working together on pushing homeownership. So thank you to MOH, the Planning Department, Maha, and also the BHA for Invested more in trying to do more through homeownership. My last question, Chair, my last question doesn't have to even be answered. Just would love to see a breakdown, like a side-by-side comparison of someone who purchased a home, affordable home ownership maybe like in 2010 or 2015 versus someone who purchased an affordable rental just to kind of see like side by side, you know, payments, right, housing payments, and then what that individual who purchased a home, what their equity would have been in 15 years. So that I think it will be a great visual for the public and counselors to see So like the benefits.

For clarification, so what they would have paid in housing costs in a sort of a stable home ownership versus renting and something that would potentially escalate.

Right. Okay.

Yeah. We could do that.

Awesome. Okay. Thank you.

Weber.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm not going to take the six minutes, but I know in the presentation we talked about there's some information about home repair. There was a story I read about Philadelphia recently, how people, their home ownership rates are higher there, I think, than they are here. and there's lots of folks who can't afford to fix their homes. I know we do have some programs Here, do you know, does anyone feel, Chief, do you feel confident? No? Anyone testify about, talk about the Philadelphia program and how, you know, because I think they're actually giving... There's a large dollar figure, you know, the tens of millions of dollars that, and they have Grant's up to $30,000 to help people who just have holes in their roofs. What are we doing here in Boston to make sure people who get into these homes or have a home here Can stay in them and aren't having to sell because they can't afford them

So I don't know about that program, but I recently met with the Philadelphia group in regards to the decarbonization strategy. So I'm going to go back and learn more. So thank you for really raising that. I will promise you I will go back and check. But what we're doing through our homework, so we have our homeworks program and we provide home financial assistance for homeowners up to Thank you. Thank you. and many more. We always look at health and safety on the homes. I can tell you that our programs are always being very successful. We really are so busy in the hundreds of applications and we're always meeting our goals and we always are in the community and really are reaching and that's a big thing in our Boston Home Center is how do we really touch to Those homeowners that are low to moderate income that need that assistance and especially for our seniors, right? So we work with non-profit partners that actually are in the neighborhoods that could help seniors to really apply for our programs if they cannot come to us. I can't tell you that I even have staff that have been able to meet the homeowners in their homes and provide them with the information needed so we do always do outreach. So our programs are very successful, but we do have very good programs that could cover any need on the home.

And in terms of the demand for that service, do we have enough funding to meet the demand or do you have to triage that?

Yeah, I think we're good. I mean, for the homeowner program.

Yeah, so far we're good. As construction repairs, of course, come or rise, then we will see. But as of this year, I think we're good.

Just to last follow up, have you heard stories about people who sell because they can't afford to fix the house? Anecdotally, I don't know, is that happening here in Boston?

I personally have not heard that in our home services programs, every one that I That I have talked to, they really want to preserve their home. They really wanted to stay in Boston. So they tried the hardest to stay in Boston.

Okay. And how does that get funded through the city?

CBDG and 2030.

Operating budget?

Yeah, operating budget and CBDG.

Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

I had a quick question. Where are we? Do banks still have to do community reinvestment? Or has that gone bye-bye, depending on what?

No, they still do. They're still responsible for CRA, yes.

And I know when we bought our home, we were able to get a second mortgage for 10% of the big mortgage. At an interest rate of 1% to do essential home repairs, talking about home repairs, what sort of programs does the community reinvestment

So Mass Housing, we work with Mass Housing. Mass Housing does have a program that is a low interest rate. It's not a 1%, but it's in the fives. that they could provide assistance for home repairs. We also are working closely with five lenders to provide assistance for ADUs. crafted this program to really the necessity of the cities, but it's still, I mean, they still have to pay interest and basically is the HELOCs or line of credits that they're used, but they did craft the program for us for the ADU.

And do you think it's giving good bang for the buck, the community reinvestment program?

So they're always looking for it. So they know that our target population is low to moderate, and we have them. We do have low to moderate. So they are looking to see how they can invest in the city. And if they don't know, then if they don't want to, I always remind them of the CRA and the commitment that they had with the city. I used to, my background was in lending. for 18 years. So I always remind them of what the CRA is. And we have a good ally, Tom Callahan, which also pushes into the banks to continue to do the CRA in the city.

Good, good. I will let you know that every time we refinance, they try to get us to give up that second mortgage and roll it into the 6% mortgage and go, no, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Anyway, it's nearly done now at this stage. Concha Mejia.

All right, because I know we, I know. I'm sorry. I do have lots of questions, but I know we also have a panel. We have another panel. Yes, I am. I'm only going to ask one question. It would just be helpful for me to understand the dynamics of a co-op. Because we walk into a space 30 years ago thinking that we're going to own a piece of land, that we're going to be able to sustain it. But it seems like the city, who are they paying? Are they paying the bank? Are they paying the city? Who owns that piece of land? Father Martin.

Yeah, I think the co-op does.

And the co-op means the people?

The limited partner, yeah.

The people who are either, but they're not owners, they're equity partners. So they really technically don't own it.

But they're the partners. Let's not get by a share. They are the partners.

But are they a financial? So if you, they own the debt, but they don't own the property.

No, they own the property. If I could, so most buildings, market rate buildings around here are owned by limited partnerships, right? I mean, it's rare that you're gonna look up any office building or big apartment building and you're gonna see John Jones as an owner. It's gonna be a limited partner. And it's who controls the limited partners is who owns that structure. Now, I'm not explaining it very good. So there's a co-op. There's a co-op limited partner that is controlled by the residents.

Because what the tension is, I guess, and maybe this is where we can educate ourselves to better understand so that we don't create unintended consequences for people or harm for folks who are making assumptions about their investments or what they think are investments.

I think what would be helpful for me, and it sounds like for you and for others, is while there's not a lot of cooperatives in the city, there are some. There are market rate cooperatives. There are limited equity cooperatives, which this is. It's all limited equity?

Yeah. And there's a memo that was drafted when this was restructured that that limited equity co-op model was not pursued at the time. and so that is something that could be considered but in order to do that there needs to be an investment from the members like a financial investment from the members to That's how I understand it. I think that there's more that we could look into that. And I know that they have an attorney that's been working with them on it. So I don't know exactly what the guidance is. But that's something that is documented as something that we could pursue. We as in like the state and the city could look at and, you know.

Let me leave you with this then. I know that this particular cooperative was working with a consultant. I think they're still trying to sort out what the future, both the existing debt expenses, fair housing charges, that the city's going to continue to work with them. make ourselves available to sort this out.

I guess the last thing that I just will say is that my assumption is if somebody's paying a mortgage that they are the owners, right? And if they're paying $1.7 million now for four years, it just seems, is that true?

I believe the loan is due in 44, right? 2044.

So if I own a home, I'm the mortgage holder. I own the home and I own the property. Whereas this particular scenario with the co-op, They have a mortgage. They are paying for all the maintenance. They're doing everything, but yet they're not fully owners.

They're the owners. They are. We don't know that. They are the owner.

They are the owner. We don't have any ownership stake in the property. They are the owners. I think that there's some confusion about it. But that's OK. The lawyers that are here will probably help me understand who owns this property. Because I just want to make sure that I understand this fully. If I'm having a hard time understanding it, maybe it's because I don't live there. I don't know. That's why we were hoping that we could get a better understanding because there seems to be a disconnect. There's a communication gap right here, right now between the residents and the city. And then who owns the debt? Who owns the property? Who owns the equity? We have the debt on the property.

Yeah, and the equity, I think maybe, and we've talked about this a little bit, is can the residents take out any of the equity from the property?

To pay off the mortgage? The millions of dollars they owe. Or they could refinance. Or do whatever.

Yeah, so they could refinance with a bank. And another bank could take on that loan and repay us I mean, that's...

So you guys are the landlords. You just said pay us. So that means you... We're not the landlords. We're the lenders. I was about to say, uh-huh, you are the...

We're the lender. It's like if you're a homeowner and you have a mortgage, you own the home, but the bank or lender has a mortgage on the property. It's the same for us. We have a mortgage on the property. We have a promissory note on the property, but we don't own the property.

Very interesting. My time is so up. And we have another panel to go through. And I'm just going to be, you know what?

I appreciate this learning journey that I'm going on. We are so committed to helping you understand, and for us to understand this as well.

Right, I know, I know. This is complicated. Like I said before, and I'll say it again, we are committed to working with the co-op to ensure that that it's a resource for them and it's a resource for the city for the years to come. So Rihanna is going to work with them. We're going to work with them. It seemed like the last consultant didn't come to a resolution, so we'll keep at it. Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Thank you for all of the panelists here, the administration, and for Hilary. or Maha. I'm a big Maha fan. We did those homeowner classes years ago with Maha, so thank you. The next panel.

Yes, please.

So before we go to the next panel, we have time for public testimony. Let's see. Do we have anyone signed up for public testimony, Ron? and is there anyone online?

She's the only one online.

She's right there. Senator Diane Wilkerson might be waiting to testify.

She was on the panel, that was good.

Okay. Who's this? Is there anyone who's not on the panel who wants to make public testimony? Hello, is someone on Zoom? Is she on the panel? Would you like to introduce yourself? I see you're on Zoom.

I'm sorry, were you talking to me?

Yes, I'm sorry. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. Can you hear me okay? Yes. Yes. You would like to make public testimony?

Yes, I needed to change the name, so my name is Sonal Patel, S-O-N-A-L, our same as Patel. I am, you know, I've been listening to all of this all along. and I myself did a first time homeboyer class with the city of Boston. As a minority female, I was living in a 700 square foot condominium with my mother and a seven year old child. who was at the time studying in the Boston Public Schools. As a first-generation immigrant, I needed, you know, I wanted to build wealth, everything I'm hearing today, and leave something behind so my child It doesn't start from scratch. So I purchased a new condominium unit or new new condo construction in South Boston. Located close to Andrew Station. And again, location was critical because I was a single parent. I had a child, Josiah Quincy, Elementary school was close to home and the ultimate goal was that my son, who was seven, would have a room of his own and could grow and stay in Boston to attend the Boston Public Schools. The building at the time it was built was assessed by the city at about $6.6 million in 2017. 33 condo buildings were sold. I bought mine at the time at about a million dollars market rate in 2016. In about 2017, after all the units were sold, owners began to realize there were massive infiltration issues. Water leaks, roof leaks, water infiltration throughout many units in the condo. And after eight years of ownership, We are still paying millions of dollars as owners in fixing a lemon building. Something where the builder was a real estate lawyer knew how to play the corporation shell game, walked away with millions, and we were stuck with a defective product. Association and the lawyers gave us big hopes, big stories that they would win millions because there were massive defects. and court cases. And at the time, I was vehemently against it, but I did not have the right to say anything. because I was just one of the few that was against the big picture or the big dreams that the lawyers and the association were telling us. During COVID, In 2020, the association and the lawyers filed a lawsuit without informing unit owners telling us, hey, you know, I had taken out an arm on my building. that if you don't have your financing straightened out, you won't be able to refinance. We can't sell. It was filed at the beginning of a massive pandemic like COVID. I as an individual had excellent credit, no other debt. My condo is my only debt. Here I am, eight years later, now in foreclosure. because no one we have a large percent of the owners are investment investors the association members are male members who are well-to-do and No one considered The association nor the lawyers consider the individual rights of all unit owners within the condo building and how the lawsuit would affect us financially and potentially get us to the point of losing our home. Thank you, Ms. Patel.

Thank you. Can you finish?

My son is in the 11th grade. He attends the Boston Public Schools. Today I'm paying $4,600 because my bank, I can't even work with my bank on my mortgage. No one is financing the building. No one in the 33 units are able to sell. We're not able to refinance. My son is in the 11th grade at one of the exam schools. We are now paying $2,000 a month in condo fees, $4,600 a month in my mortgage just to keep my home so that I can leave the wealth that everyone in this room is talking about.

How is any of this my fault as an owner? Next up, we have Karen Clark, who's going to be on Zoom. Can you hear me, Karen? Good afternoon, Karen. Can you hear me? Good afternoon, Karen, can you hear me? Okay. I think we'll move on. I understand Senator Diane Wilkerson is waiting. Senator Wilkerson can you hear me? There you go. Good afternoon Senator Wilkerson.

Good afternoon, Councillor, how are you?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for coming to testify. You've got two minutes. I'll start the clock whenever you're ready.

Thank you. I've been listening since the beginning and I just wanted to share this with you. First, thank you to you and Councilor Mejia for hosting us. Almost a year ago, actually a little over a year ago in September, I was physically present in the Chamber and the Councilor hosted a meeting on housing and deed restrictions. And just want to share a couple of the things that have been said in response. The immediate past testifiant, very touching story. You're going to hear, I think, more of that. What I think is that the city of Boston has an incredible array of services that they have put together around people who seek home ownership. What I also believe is that when things, and when they go well, they go well. When things don't go well, There is not a process or much receptivity to addressing this. There's an assumption that all homeowners are looking to capitalize, raise equity, and bail out. I think I heard the counselor talk about that. Several of the counselors talked about that in terms of equity. Not everybody wants to be a homeowner solely for the purpose of cashing out in the end. I would say I, too, support deed restrictions. I think if the city of Austin or any of the Commonwealth Thank you. Thank you. given what's happening in Washington than it was 10 years ago. If you are not able to take advantage of equity built over time, then the whole point of homeownership is lost. And as we are rushing to increase the population of people able to take advantage of this opportunity in Boston, What you're also doing is building the number of people who don't have any access to cashing out to send their children to college. That's the story that I had. from the residents of Mission Hill. I can't see if the councilor from Mission Hill or Dorchester is still there. But they both spoke to something that's very important. The City of Boston has some programs that they offer by the way that allow One group of homeowners to cash out after 10 years in deed restriction, and another group of homeowners, which might be your next door neighbor, have to wait for 30 years. The director knows. that one of the problems that the city is dealing with is that the homes that were built in the city of Boston in the early 2000s under Mayor Menino, very aggressive program, With the 30-year deed restrictions, none of the homeowners actually signed paperwork in their closings, right? We're not told. And the director referred to that and alluded to that, and she's right. even she believed because she relayed to me two years ago that every one of the 44 homeowners that bought in the Bromley Heath area Mission Hill between 2000 and 2004 signed a language acknowledging the existence of the 30-year deed restriction. Now we know that's not true. Councilors, in fact, not one of those homeowners did because there was not any any language, any discussion by the attorneys or the city attorney when they signed. And so here we are stuck, right? So we got to deal with that. I personally represented the residents of both Charlene Park Limited Equity Co-op, and Brown Kaplan Co-op. Both Limited Equity, one in Roxbury, one in Dorchester. I'm happy to share with the Council and hear with you about their experience. They're still there, so this can work. I don't find the city to be very receptive to hear from people who have had experience and can share with them ways to avoid this. We have to do A better job of this. Going into COVID, we were at 32% homeownership, Black homeownership in the city. All of the reports I've seen suggest that we've lost 6%. So I'm not sure how the city tells you today that we're at 32%. We were at 32% before COVID, we've had a number of foreclosures. I'm sorry, Councilor, I will submit further testimony in writing, but just want you to know that this is not all peachy keen, even for those of us who support Deed restrictions, we have a problem. It's not foreclosing for the exclusionary zoning. That's not where you're gonna see it. It's in the assessments. That's where the foreclosures are coming. And to address that because they're not going to be foreclosed for failure to pay your mortgage. That's not what's happening in Roxbury. That's not what's happening in Mission Hill. And this woman just told you the story. That's how people are losing their housing. They get in there and then they can't pay a $7,000 assessment. Hers is much longer. Thank you very much for this. This is important work.

I appreciate the opportunity. We look forward to your written testimony as well, Senator. Thank you. Karen Clark, is Karen Clark in the waiting room? Okay, let's move on to the next question. The next panel. Thank you for your patience. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Hang on, we need the mic to know who you're talking to here. Yeah, this...

Good afternoon, Councilors, and thank you for the opportunity to speak today. My name is Bailey Niokas, and I'm the President of the Board of Directors. I've lived at Father Martin Homes for over 30 years, and I'm speaking on behalf of our board and the 34 families who call it home. Father Mountain was built in 1993 through the City of Boston's Housing Partnership Co-op Initiative. It was one of several cooperatives created to give working and low- and middle-income residents paths to homeownership, stability, and community control while keeping housing permanently affordable. were located on Bolton Street, F Street, West 2nd Street, and South Boston. Many of the original members who founded the co-op are still living there today. We've raised families, retired, and stayed deeply involved in our community. For us, this isn't just housing, it's a home. Like many limited equity cooperatives formed under the Low Income Housing Tax Credit Program, our development was financed through a mix of public and private funding. Once the tax credit investors completed debt compliance period and exited, all ownership responsibilities, including debt repayment and property upkeep, shifted fully to the resident members. Unlike renters, our members are limited equity partners who collectively own the majority of shares and shoulder the full cost of maintaining and operating our community. We cover all maintenance and property management salaries, fund major capital replacements like boilers, roofs, building systems, and pay for all ongoing cosmetic and structural upkeep. landscaping, porch repairs, flooring replacements and more. Every dollar comes directly from the members carrying charges in our cooperative budget, not from outside subsidies. The structure reinforces that Father Mountain residents are not tenants, but equity holding partners invested in long-term stewardship and success of our cooperative. For me personally, Father Mountain provided a home for my grandmother who became a single mother of four girls after losing their father, a Vietnam veteran, to pancreatic cancer. Later, it became a home for my mother who raised me as a single teen mom. And for three generations, it's cooperated with my family and many others, stability, opportunity, and community. Our community is made up of a diverse group of people who, in spite of hardship and adversity, have continued to serve and strengthen the City of Boston. These are people who keep our neighborhoods running. The crossing guards who make sure your children get to school safely. The MBTA drivers who make sure you get to work safely. The front line and essential workers who risk their own health to make sure the Boston residents had access to care and resources during the COVID-19 pandemic. The other nuns who may have taught your CCD classes, shout out Sister Fitz. The firefighters who show up to make sure you're okay when your life is on the line, and the teachers and nurses and city employees who make Boston the city we love. They're not just residents of this cooperative, they're the backbone of our community. We remain committed to preserving this model and ensuring that Father Mountain Homes continue to represent affordable community-led homeownership in Boston. Now to share more about the current challenges we're facing and how they threaten this legacy, I'll turn it over to our treasurer, Katie Narduzzo.

Good afternoon, Councillors.

Could you please say your name for the record as well when you introduce yourself?

My name is Katie Narduzzo, and I'm currently the treasurer of the board of directors. I've lived at Father Martin Homes for 31 years, having moved in as a child and grown up there. Over the past several years, our cooperative has faced increasing financial challenges that threaten our long-term stability. First, we still carry multiple city loans from the original development, some of which were discussed here earlier today. Repayment of these loans is now the responsibility of the cooperative after the investor exit. as well as the confusion regarding whether we are owners or renters as we just witnessed firsthand earlier. A financial plan adopted several years ago required 7.25% annual carrying charge increases until reaching the maximum LAHTC limits. While that plan may have looked sound on paper, it was unworkable for residents living on fixed or limited incomes. Thankfully, the city allowed us to freeze carrying charges for 2025, giving us time to explore fairer, more sustainable options. Our internal review found that about 20% of our residents, seven households, are extremely low income, paying more than half of their income towards those carrying charges and utilities. Many are elderly or disabled original members who rely primarily on Social Security. Our recent capital needs assessment identified over $4 million in repairs and replacements needed over the next 20 years, from roof replacements and heating systems to accessibility improvements and exterior repairs. These combined pressures leave us in a difficult position. We must keep housing affordable for residents while also finding a way to repay the city and preserve the buildings for the long term. To explain how we're addressing these challenges and what partnership with the city could make possible, I'd like to introduce my neighbor and fellow board member, Roxana Hidalgo.

Good afternoon, councillors. My name is Roxana Hidalgo, member of the board of directors, and I have lived at Father Walter J. Martin home for 31 years. Even with the challenges we face, our co-op is strong and committed to finding real solutions. One that protect both our residents and city investments. and that support the goal we both share in keeping a Boston place where working people can still afford to live. As I mentioned earlier, We are proud that our community includes teachers, MBTA trained drivers, TD Garden ushers, City of Boston employees, Create a fair rent structure to keep homes affordable while honoring the ownership model we were founded under. and a hardship policy to support members facing medical or financial crisis. And as the city that support this effort by granting an access and grants and funding to support communities accessibility such as translators, disability, accommodations, et cetera, et cetera. Limited equity co-ops like ours are part of the solution to Boston housing crisis. With the right support, we can help working families build roots Stabilities and Pride of Ownership in the neighborhood they love. We also ask that the city support these efforts by granting us access to funding and grant that improve community accessibility such as firefighters, hospital workers, administrative professionals, graphic designers, service industry workers, and students. People who make this city run every single day. If we can build a true partnership with the city, our co-op can continue to provide this residence, the backbone of Boston, With a stable, affordable homes and real path to ownership through the limited equity model, our proposal will Adjust the terms of our city loans so payments match what the co-op can realistically afford. Resources for translation, disability accommodations, and other inclusions needed so that every member of our co-op can fully participate and thrive. For the 31 years Father Martin Homes has shown that co-op ownership works, with your help it can keep working for today's family and for the generations to come. Thank you.

Thank you. Next, we have Heather Cook. Heather Cook. Yes. Please introduce yourself and the floor is yours.

Yes, absolutely. Good afternoon. My name is Heather Cook. I just want to thank you, Councilor Breadon and Councilor Mejia, for allowing us this platform today. So my name is Heather Cook. I am a lifelong resident by way of the South End. I was born into eminent domain and gentrification. In the 1960s, parcel 11A and 11B of the South End were sold. which displaced 100 residents. 116 Dartmouth Street was my parents' home. Their home was taken by eminent domain based off of urban renewal, and it was intended to be a parking lot. In 1968, activists including my parents, June and Richard Cook, accompanied Mel King and other protesters for a four-day protest The protest was successful, and then conversations would continue for about 20 years. In 1979, the Tent City Task Force was formed. From there, they organized a 501 , However, the caveat to that was there was no requirement for executive oversight. Fast forward to 1988, the construction of Tent City, 269 units that were intended to be affordable housing, and a model for what affordable housing should look like. It was supposed to be for mixed income individuals and also including families and single individuals. I just want to restate that I am a national activist and organizer because of the village that I come from. My parents and actually being under the tutelage of Mel King to better understand my assignment as it relates to my community. So in part of serving my community at Tent City, I started off as a Tent City team. And then from there, I served on the Tent City Corporation Board. As I was on the board, I served in officer roles that included the chair. Now, in doing so, I uncovered concerns of malfeasance, fraud, and embezzlement. I served multiple notices to censor chairs where the response was either resignation or silence. So we can forward over to 2022, where I organized residents and included their voices in the creation of two petitions that included hundreds of residents' signatures for answers into misappropriation of funds, malfeasance, and lack of transparency into $200 million that spanned over 20 years. There were also concerns about the new property management company that were brought in without the knowledge of the membership. This resulted in mass evictions and whispers of a $70 million refinance for capital needs improvements. So still in 2022, I led two public protests. It gathered media attention, and we actually had the presence of some of city councilors there in support. My father, Richard Cook, at the time, he was battling stage four cancer, but he led that protest, and he was on the front page of the Herald, and the title was One Last Battle. Fast forward to 2023, I founded and became the president of Ten City Tenant Association. Unfortunately, Ten City Corporation refused to acknowledge us and that resulted in a cease and desist because the association was being disparaged so much. So what I'd like to add is fast forward and this is after our previous conversations, Councilor Mejia, Some of the TenCity board members came forward because they heard about the hearing and started to become concerned and I'd like to share what was shared with me also via email if anybody is looking for that information. What was reported to me was Actually, let me just go back. So I had mentioned where I had the public protest with regards to the concerns around the refinance. What ended up happening was the board received the refinance. What we found out was through the board members that there's no knowledge of where the money went prior to them getting the refinance. There was no mortgage to the property. What was reported to me that the only improvement was a luxury renovation to one of the officer's homes. What I also found out was that the mortgage has not been paid in two years. What I was also informed was that there are city officials who have knowledge of that. What I was also informed was that there are concerns of tent city going into receivership. I was also informed that there are debit cards that are connected to corporate accounts. What I was also informed that there are emails of which I've received where emails have been sent with concerns with the wording of stealing money. Now, I am here to ask also for the support from the City Council for Tenth City. There is a concern of the highest level as it relates to fraud and embezzlement. I would also like as a point of clarification and reference I heard Chief Dillon's response with regards to the information that she received. I'm concerned that she's been misinformed. I say that because of the many mass evictions. I say that with regards to the inhabitability. I say that because of the continued documented lack of transparency. I also say that with regards to the fact that there are also lawsuits from the Attorney General's office. And so what Chief Dillon had mentioned with regards to the accolades of the steps that Tent City Corporation has made. Well, I'd just like to remind the room that everything that was mentioned with regards to responsible actions on behalf of the Tent City Board They were actually mandated by the Attorney General's office and that was based off of a discrimination lawsuit. So I would just like to make sure that that's all on record and ask again, that the City Council do whatever they can to assist 10 City to make sure that we can maintain the legacy of 10 City and make sure that no more residents lose their housing. Thank you.

Thank you. We move to questions. Let me redo a reset. We don't need that one. Reset. Oh, no, I'm not giving you half an hour.

When do you want me to have a half an hour?

Here we go.

Six minutes.

Very good. All right.

Thank you for your testimony. Thank you. Thank you. You could go first. You have one question? One question. Oh, I got 12 minutes then. Thank you, Councilor Weber. Yes. Y'all in trouble now. Okay. So first of all, thank you. I know it is not easy to show up anywhere, oftentimes to speak truth to The situation and the fact that we have to feel like we are inconstant. We're not sure if we're gonna stay or what's gonna happen. It's scary, right? And also to be in constant fight mode is exhausting. And so I just wanna acknowledge that. for both groups that have testified thus far, including Senator Wilkerson, who was already in the chamber for another issue earlier this year. So I just want to acknowledge all of that, which is one of the reasons why we wanted to bring you all here as a collective voice, because I think regardless of what the issue is, there is an underlying Thank you. Thank you. We are inheriting a situation that happened way before some of the folks that were even in this room were even born, right? And so I just want to acknowledge that it's a lot of historical context and that's what we're trying to grapple with. So I'm gonna ask, oh, you have a public testimony? Oh, so she was this, this. Oh, yes, we asked earlier. We asked. Do you want your two minutes? Certainly. Hold on. We'll give you two minutes. No, I can wait. No, you don't sit there. I want to know for the record that I still got my time. I'm going to give it up. Okay, we could do your testimony.

Where is she? She's going to sit over here.

No, she gets to stand right there. That's public testimony. Okay. You can start with your name.

Excuse me. Can you switch your microphone on there?

Yeah, make sure you take her public testimony too. Thank you. Thank you to the administration for staying a little bit longer. We appreciate you all. Thank you.

If you'd like to introduce yourself, I apologize, I asked if there was anyone here who needed to make public, so obviously I missed the, so you have the floor. And two minutes. And let me just check, is your microphone working? Yes.

Hello.

Good, excellent, wonderful.

Good afternoon, councillors. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak. My name is Wei Chen, but my neighbour called me Helen. I've been living in the Roxbury Pace condominium for many years and I want to share my experience as a homeowner who has struggled with unfair treatment and Safe Conditions. Over the past seven years, our condominium has faced many serious problems. A dangerous three-liamide unit was leaving unremovable. Even after bench field multiply time, I was told to pay thousands of dollars in supplemental fee for tree removal. Yet the tree was never cut. Instead of protecting us, the management company and the tree trustee ignored the danger. I live in the fair every time I stomp Graham. Another issue is flooding in our basement caused by change to the to the gutter and the drainage system without consulting the unit owner. The tree sell the outlet and we direct the water to work my front door. Heavy rains send water pool like the waterfall, flooding the basement, even walls. Those import... in proper change create a dangerous ice in the winter. I sleep and I fell twice. Once injured my head and back, and other injury is my neck. Those injured could have been prevented after proposed maintenance and safety measures were taken. I have paid my condo fee favorably for Even 10 years, but I was charged additional, supplemental free, without rules or expense, over $24,700 collected from the owner. Betree, July 22 and August 25. There is no transparency in how his money was used. When I asked the question, I was ignored. There is no transparency in how this money was used. I was billed legal fee even when I had already paid condo fee. which I believe is unfair and retaliatory. You understand? When I went for trade, I was told I was not seller, but no bar or resale were even sold. I believe this is unfair and discriminatory, especially against elderly owners and those who do not speak English fluently. These issues have caused me great stress, both financial and emotionally. I have even the medical... called care for anxiety and sleep problem. I love my home, but instead of feeling safe and respecting, I feel by the every people who are support to represent us. I am here to ask the city councilor to take action. We need the oversight of the condo and co-op governance, transparency in the financial design. and accounting ability from management company. could handle millions of dollars of the homeowner money. Homeowner seat could mean stability and dignity, not fear and... Expo-tation. Thank you for listening to my story and for stand up and westernize me. And then, you know, only July 22 and August 25, I paid supplemental fee is $24,700.

Thank you for all this documentation. Councillor Mejia, thank you. Mejia, your time.

All right. Thank you, Helen. Look at you. Look at Helen. She's walking all in the chair.

Helen, you're not supposed to do any of this.

All right.

Thank you.

Okay, Helen.

I'll look at these photographs.

Helen just walking around like she owns this chamber. Helen, we don't do that here, but it's okay, you did it. All right. So we're reaching the end of our time together, and I want to be mindful of how long some of y'all waited to testify. There was a request to allow the administration to go first. My colleagues had lots of questions for the administration, so sorry that we are still here holding you hostage. I am curious because some of the things that I'm hearing from Tent City is around some of the governance structure and some of the discrepancies and some of the just And then on the Father Martin, there is a lot of issues around the financial responsibility that after 30 years that you have now to assume So I kinda wanna tackle those two issues separately. So I'm gonna start with Father Martin. In your time over the last 30 years, how many, can you, if you happen to remember, How many times have you been in communication with the city of Boston regarding your financial state?

I would say basically not really that much. It all started out when The lawn for the 1.7, start up, that's when we start seeing the city there. So on and off, not frequently, but on this 2024, what are we, 25, right? Yeah. 24 and 25, that's what we have seen the city very often.

Okay. So and just for those folks who are not in the chamber, there's some folks behind the scenes noting that maybe two times or Thank you. Thank you.

Regarding the finances, that's correct. But regarding pretty much the ownership issues that we've talked about today that you witnessed firsthand, Thank you. Thank you.

communicated to you about your status? Very little.

She was a little girl. At that time. I cannot say that.

Yeah, whoever can answer.

So when we set up a Father Walter Jane Marine, what is it, 1994, 1995, we were offered We signed into the pool. We were elected. The units were in construction. They were going on. And then we We were called individually by members that were running the program. Don't ask me their names because I really don't, but they are on our books. We have the names. They told us that we were going to be the owners. That's a co-op. And we were giving like a down payment. Mine was $531. I always remember that. So in the back we were the owners of the property and we paid the mortgage and that's how it went. Over all these years, we believed that until the city came in and told us something different that we're never going to be owners.

One second, because this is very interesting, and Heather, I'm still going to go to you, so don't. I'm just curious, Roxanne, if you could just tell me, when you said the city, so it sounds like up until recently, you were working with a different set of understanding.

That's right.

Okay, and so when this, When this particular administration, or was it under Mayor Walsh, at what point did you start questioning your status?

We started questioning our status, our ownership, and being the owners, and being who we were at the time. at the Co-op, when the city is stepping for the lawn.

What year was that?

2018 maybe they start up with the paperwork and there was a transaction done that was not communicated to the whole community and they did agreements and that's how we sold. We sold our souls. And we don't know what's happening. And right now, I'm hearing that We are just partnerships, so we don't own nothing. We're not the owners of the place, even though we pay a mortgage. So that's what I'm hearing right now. Okay.

No, that's what we're all hearing. We can watch the tape later to really say, what did they really say? Because I'm still a little bit confused, but it's fine. We're going to get to the bottom of this, which is why we're having this in the record, so that we can understand what we need to do differently as we continue to have these conversations because what we don't want is a scenario in which you are walking into and entering an agreement that then morphes into something else. And because there's been several changes of administration, I think the communication has not been consistent and I think it hasn't been clear. But I did hear my buzzer and I want to ask one question to Tenant. Tenant City. Now, and then so she's Breadon said I'm fine. I'm going to go back to Father Martin in a minute. But Heather, you had mentioned that there were several folks here who were waiting to testify or waiting to be here. and left, but you didn't get to finish that thought and I'm just curious, what was happening for the folks who did come and did not end up staying? Yeah, yeah.

Just concerns, fears. I think it was schedule conflicts was the reason why they had to leave. But for the most part, everybody shares the belief that there is a concern that we might lose our homes. and that we've been hoodwinked and we've been run amok and this is where we are right now.

And so some of the things that I hear when folks are dealing with situations that are stressful or tension is that there's a fear of retaliation. Yes. that folks feel like, oh, you know, I'm starting good trouble, you know, I'm speaking up. And I'm just curious because you've been a vocal voice in tent city, kind of, if you could just help us understand kind of the dynamics that you've had to overcome.

Absolutely. Prior to the new management coming in in 2019, this was a process that, a fight that was internal, and I was following the blueprint that was passed down to me from my elders, right? But I wasn't getting anywhere. And so we were really forced into the front lines to really have to incorporate the city. In fact, Chief Dillon received this packet in August of 2022. And there were conversations with her, but it seemed as though it was dismissed and minimized and kind of just left where it was at. There's hearsay about why that happened, but I won't get into that. but definitely scare tactics. We had a murder on the property and I had to be on Fox 25 News and share the statement that it shouldn't take a murder to get the lights and the security cameras on. The young man who was murdered was Jason Murray, and there was nothing done about it. And so these are the types of, this is the dark underbelly of Tent City, and the concern is that people are using Mel King's name and the legacy to allow this behavior to continue. So what we're dealing with at TenCity is there's this go along to get along mentality. If you're on the right side, then you get whatever you want. If you're not, then we're going to We're going to point you out and we're going to ostracize you like we've done to Heather. But I will say that there have been points in time, and people tend, I don't know if it's human nature, they come to me when it seems as though it's going to hit the fan. Hence, the board members that came forward and shared information to me to bring me up to date for where they are right now. And so I was able to gather all these signatures. So it's not just me saying this is what's happening. There's hundreds of signatures. And when you look at the property, There's 269 units, but if you go back and match the signatures, how many of them have been evicted on a mass level because they were trying to get justice for Tent City so that Tent City could be the place that it was intended to be?

Thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. And I'm going to end my time with you all. I want you each to really think about what you would like to see as a result of our time together. What is still unanswered? What advocacy do you have for us to be able to help support you all in this? I'm curious. What are you hoping for? and we'll start this way, we'll go down. This is really an opportunity for folks as you're thinking about what would you like to, Any questions that you still haven't answered or a hope, like how we can repair the harm or maybe we can dissolve the loan. Whatever it is, this is an opportunity for you to get it on the record.

Yeah, for me, it's been my mission and my assignment. And it's not a hope. It's really a demand that I have to continue to move forward with, even if it has to go to the federal level. But what we need is transparency with accountability. We need to make sure that we're able to save Tent City and the legacy associated with it and make sure that there is a precedent that's set and making sure that we're holding people who are in office accountable and not allowing this complacency or this assumption of authority without having any responsibility to the constituents that are out here suffering. Because what's happened is, 10 city residents are the collateral damage. based off of the greed of residents who live there, based off of a gap with the creation of the Ten City Corporation for there not having to be any requirement for executive oversight. People are making decisions out of greed. They're making it out of emotions. And that's not what Ten City was meant to be because anybody who knows Mel King knows that that's supposed to be a place for people. I'll end there. Thank you.

Heather, you said Ten City was

So it was originally 10th City Task Force, it's now 10th City Corporation, and they entered into a 99-year lease agreement, land agreement, with the City of Boston, formerly known as the BRA. And my conversations with the BRA was trying to get them to hold the corporation accountable because there are requirements within that agreement that they had so that they had to stay within a margin and there was no enforcement there. Thank you. Thank you for the clarity. Thank you. Roxana.

Go ahead. To which here for Father Walter J. Martin will be that there's city loans. Thank you. Thank you. This big humongous loan that will take forever. I will be dead in 1944. I mean, 2044. But I want to leave the legacy for whoever's going to stay in the community. To live, feel safe and secure that they will be able to keep on living there. So that is my wish inside my heart and I know that's all my community wish. that that takes place so we can live on and go on on a life be able to afford our our carrying charges every month not to be stressed out. That's what I did.

You were paying 531, Roxanne? Who was talking? You were paying 531 before?

That was my down payment. 531, and my rent was $633. And how much has it gone up since? When the city set up in 2019, my rent went up, so right now I am paying $1,700. So next year, who knows what it's going to be. Maybe $8,900. I don't know. It's a $7.25 that we get increased yearly. It's already break down. on monthly, so each one of us had a payment to make with a low income as Bailey has explained it, the 20%, the 30% that we have. So we have a mandatory, we have 7.25 that we run until 2044. And God knows what's going to happen in 2044 when the 7 million kicks in. and to the new payments.

I can speak on that a little bit too. The 7.25% increase when we were told that in 2019, I recall I was at that meeting, and at least my understanding was we'll increase your rent by 7.25%, but only to the, what do they call it, the maximum housing credit?

AMI. AMI.

A certain limit and at the time they kind of quoted a ballpark number and I said okay that doesn't seem bad but that limit keeps going up and up and up and I feel it wasn't accurately communicated to us that that limit Thank you for watching. I know that... So I moved in as a child. I don't know if my parents were paying a rent all of those 25 years or so, but I know that the cost for them did not increase nearly as much as it has for me since I'm the person who pays for the unit now. Have you had a similar experience?

Yeah, most definitely.

Hello. I've had a similar experience as well. Let me just start with what I would like to see from the city. To echo Heather's points, there's really way more transparency and executive oversight. That's been a huge problem with our cooperative. as you saw there's mass confusion there but you know even this year we found out that our attorney who has long represented us and who we have felt like could have and should have told us whether or not we were owners and been able to answer those questions has never Well, we were told just this year that he's also representing the city so that he could not possibly, in his own words, he could not possibly represent us in a case if there was ever one against the city because it would be a conflict of interest. That lawyer was recommended to us by the city. When Rihanna was speaking earlier to an agreement that was made to basically not become owners and become partners instead, that was wielded by Ken Gould, the lawyer we both share, the city and them. So I don't think there's really any transparency as far as that's concerned. And like Katie said, even when they ask us at an annual meeting, they'll make something look one way, and then it's very much not. It's really the more they say, the less we know. and they have us making agreements to things that we cannot undo and they don't even have it translated if the residents don't speak English. They're just asking them to sign on the dotted line, which has been a problem over and over and over again for us. Another thing that they said earlier was that, you know, We should apply for vouchers. We do apply for vouchers, but as we all know, those are not easy to get. They're extremely limited. I would love to see the city provide vouchers specifically to co-ops like ours with aging populations because we are providing affordable income and because we're providing affordable income housing, we're under restrictions because of that. So if we're going to remain under those restrictions, we need to find a way to still make sure our capital needs are being met. If everyone's rent is going down because they're retiring and going on Social Security, how are we supposed to continue paying off their mortgage? Also, we have land, for example, that we could sell, but we would need the city's permission to sell it. And so far, we've never even been able to get the city's permission to sell it, even in order to pay back the loan to the city. So I would like to see all of that be addressed.

I also found the discussion earlier to be very illuminating when you were asking, are we owners or are we partners? And no one had the answer to it. We don't have the answer to it either. We would also like to know.

I think we learned that you were allegedly The City holds the mortgage and the members are the owners. So that to me is where I'm still, like if they hold the mortgage, they are technically the owners, you guys are...

If you buy a house, the bank has the mortgage. You're the owner of the house.

That's right. So who owns the house? Who comes from... I feel like this is like... Maybe I'm slow. You know what?

I'm like y'all. Don't share that confusion.

I can give you a little detail that I just found out myself a couple months ago when I questioned my manager's property which we paid him. His salary. So I ask about the mortgages. So I guess we have four mortgages that we pay for 31 years. Now I ask I was the vice president when I asked him. So I asked him to produce a copy of the mortgage payment, to explain it to me, how is the mortgage paid, who do we pay. So he said, well, your mortgage is paid, and this is a couple months ago, this question was answered to me. Your mortgage is included into your city loan. Do you hear that? Our mortgage is included into the city loan. I said, how is that possible? He goes, well, that's the way it was set up. But he's new, though, so he doesn't know too much. So he's OK. He said, well, that's the way it was set up, Rosanna. I said, well, that doesn't make no sense. If we have a mortgage, we pay a mortgage to an entity, a bank or whatever, and we take care of that separate. And our loan should be separate in amount of money that we pay into the city. Why is our... are mortgages included into the city loan. So that's something that I wanted to understand. Why is there something tricky going on there?

Thank you for that. Heather, you want to say something and then I'm done.

I'm sorry, Councilor. As it relates to the capital needs and the refinances with TenCity, it's a different situation. where we've had multiple capital needs assessments. We've had refinances that were supposed to be intended for capital improvements. Those capital improvements have never happened, including the most recent refinance. Our HVAC has not been replaced. Residents are still living in the same units from 30 plus years ago, living with the same blinds, countertops, et cetera, et cetera, and only certain residents are getting the upgrades, luxury upgrades.

Thank you. Heather, you didn't fall far from the tree if your father was out in front of that protest all those years ago, so thank you. Thank you all for coming in this afternoon. I feel like I've spoken too much.

I do appreciate you all. Thank you for sharing your advocacy and demonstrating what it looks like when we show up in this chamber. We have to tell it like it is and share our Concerns and our stories and our questions. Our job is to listen and to figure out what we can do collectively to help support. I know what it's like to be housing and Secure. And I think that some of this is also looming over your heads. And then I also think that the retaliation piece, all of those things are real. So just know that we are committed to continuing to work alongside you all figure some of these things out to the best of our ability. So thank you for your time. And I wanted to acknowledge that counselor.

Councillor Roussy-Louijeune, do you have any further comments or questions?

I know you're holding the gavel, and I hate to do this, but I actually do. I have a question because I really do want to understand and maybe a bit after I'm sorry I had meetings and started running in and out. I really do want to try to understand what's happening to try to see how to be helpful. Someone stated that the city said that you should be applying for vouchers if there are people who can no longer Thank you. Thank you.

No, it would be vouchers to subsidize the rent that's currently being charged to make sure we can still meet our carrying charges. So essentially the carrying charge would still be the same, but they would give a portion of that subsidy in a voucher form.

And are these residents who are renters or are they people who have essentially purchased shares in the co-op or a limited share that makes them owners of the building?

One thing that is clear is that we have purchased the shares. We do own the majority of shares in the cooperative.

So everyone who lives there owns the majority of shares in the cooperative.

All the original families, which most of them are still.

Which is what makes this like a limited home ownership model.

Exactly.

And then the city's intersection is how?

Is that we owe them money because they gave us a loan when our investors pulled out.

All right, so they're like one of your lenders.

Right, but just as it happened earlier with Councilor Mejia who asked about the money, they said that we owed about $650,000. They didn't mention that that combined with the interest they're charging us, it's $7 million.

And that was only the principal free of the loans? Right, the fourth one.

And are you on a monthly or continual basis paying the city back?

So they did freeze the interest on it, or the principal.

The interest.

They froze the paying back the interest until 2044. But we're still paying back the principal.

And have you met on an individual basis with the mayor's office of housing to try to figure out like what solution or? How to reach some sort of solution here.

That's represented by Rihanna, right? Rihanna works with them. 7.25, that was the solution. 7.25, increasing our rents.

If Rihanna and Sheila Dillon are part of that, then yes, we've met multiple times.

OK. But that was a 7.25% rent increase. over nine years becomes double. So like every nine years, our caring charters would double, which is becoming unsustainable given just like our incomes.

Particularly for our lowest income residents.

Right, and so you're paying, but you're paying rent, which is equivalent of... Buying into the shares in the property.

Yes, we call them carrying charges.

So we have one loan that we are paying right now. It's $1.7 million. That's the one that we're paying. That's the one that has 7.25. The other one that we're kicking in 2044 is $7 million. So we don't know what's going to happen there.

which that's the interest payment.

So the interest. That law is on a sleep mode, sleeping. So I question, Brianna, what's going to happen because we find out about the $7 million they were not telling us, but we found it out. And then she says, oh, don't worry about it. No, never mind that. Forget about it. Don't worry about it. So that's what it took place. So that's now. So we have the $7 million that we're kicking in 2044.

And everyone is with Father Martin Homes, except for, of course, Heather, your tent city. Your tent city is affordable. It's just affordable rental. It's not.

It's supposed to be, but what we're hearing From the board is that the management company is looking to grandfather in the current subsidies and then make everything else market in addition to their corporate residents. that they put on the top floor, Airbnb, and Homeless that they brought in from Mass and Cass.

Thank you. With respect to Father Martin, this is the end of my questioning. There's very similar issues that happened in Mission Hill with some folks who bought deed-restricted homes. And they sat down and were able to find solutions for man-adopted housing. I think sometimes there are complex issues like this that involve cooperatives and limited shares that I think it might be of interest to try to get folks around the table to solve the problem. And so to the extent that I can be helpful in making that happen, I would be happy to do so. Thank you.

Thank you Madam Chair. Thank you Madam President. So let me see what number this is So this hearing on docket number 1440 is adjourned and thank you all for your participation this afternoon.

Thank you.