City Council - Public Health, Homelessness, & Recovery Committee Hearing on Docket #0175

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Good afternoon, everybody. For the record, my name is John Fitzgerald, District 3 City Councilor, and I am the chair of the Boston City Council Committee on Public Health, Homelessness, and Recovery. Today is March 9th, 2026. The exact time is 2.05. This hearing is being recorded. It is also being livestreamed at boston.gov backslash city hyphen council hyphen TV. and broadcast on Xfinity Channel 8, RCN Channel 82, Fios Channel 964. Written comments may be sent to the committee email at ccc.health at boston.gov and will be made part of the record and available to all Councillors. Public testimony will be taken during this hearing. Individuals will be called on in the order in which they signed up and will have two minutes to testify. If you're interested in testifying in person, please add your name to the sign-up sheet near the entrance of the chamber.

If you're looking to testify virtually, please email our central staff liaison, Megan Cavanaugh, at Megan, M-E-G-H-A-N, dot, Cavanaugh, K-A-V-A-N. A-N-A-G-H at Boston.gov for the link and your name will be added to the list. Today's hearing is on docket 0175, order for a hearing to discuss the regulation of kratom in the city of Boston. This matter was sponsored by Councilors John Fitzgerald and Edward M. Flynn. and was referred to the committee on January 28th, 2026. Today I'm joined by my colleagues in order of arrival, Councilor Erin Murphy, Councilor Ed Flynn, Councilor Mynyd Culpepper and Councilor Sharon Durkan. I will now allow for opening remarks for the councillors. Just leave it 30 to 60 seconds. We'll start with you, Councillor Murphy. Thank you.

Thank you. Just want to thank the panelists for being here. This is an important conversation to make sure that we know what's out there, how it's affecting people, especially we know we're working oftentimes you know with the population that's struggling with a lot of dual diagnosis and just here to understand how we can and myself can support making sure our residents aren't at risk more than they already are so thank you and Looking forward to the conversation. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Councillor Culpepper. Thank you, Councillor Fitzgerald, for holding this important hearing on the regulation of Kratom in Boston. As Kratom becomes more widely available in smoke shops, convenience stores, and online, it's important that we take a closer look at the potential public health and safety implications We need to better understand how Kratom is currently being sold and used in Boston and what appropriate steps the city should consider to regulate these products and protect residents. And we thank you for Our presenters this morning and look forward to hopefully not just looking closer at it, but coming up with some ways to help regulate these products. Thank you. Thank you, Council. Council Durkan.

Thank you so much, Chair. Obviously, this is a huge issue, and I'm particularly concerned about 70H, the byproduct of the crate implant. I'm excited to have this conversation. There is a House bill that is being proposed to regulate Kratom by classifying it as I know that the City of Boston can ban substances. In 2015, we adopted an ordinance prohibiting the possession, sale, and manufacturing of synthetic cannabinoids. To see what we can do here and I want to thank those that are on the panel and excited to hear what they have to say.

Thank you, colleagues. I would now like to introduce today's first panel, I believe only. On behalf of the administration, we have PJ McCann as the Deputy Commissioner of Policy and Planning for PUS and Public Health Commission. Peter Barbudo, the CEO of the Gavin Foundation, and Dr. Nani Estella. I think the way we're going to go about this today, guys, just so everyone is aware and for those in the audience, I'm going to allow you guys to sort of set the stage a little bit, just have a little bit of an opening statement, anything you might have prepared or not. and then I'd prefer to get to public testimony because I know there are folks here that take time out of their day to come here and so I'd love to hear them first and that make sure that you guys also hear some of their concerns and and after public testimony we'll go back and we'll go into the Q&A from our councillors. Sound good? Mr. McCann, I'll turn it over to you at first and look forward. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

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Great. Good afternoon, Chair Fitzgerald and members of the committee and council. My name is PJ McCann and I am Deputy Commissioner for Policy and Planning at the Boston Public Health Commission. Thank you for the opportunity to testify about this important topic. I will start with a quick overview of what kratom is. Kratom is a tropical tree native to Southeast Asia. Kratom often refers to products derived from its leaves. Kratom has a long history of indigenous use in Southeast Asia. However, we have seen increased use in the US in recent years. People who use Kratom report both stimulant-like effects and effects that are similar to opioids and sedatives. It is commonly used to self-treat conditions such as pain, coughing, diarrhea, anxiety, depression, and opioid use disorder as well as opioid withdrawal. It is mostly consumed orally in the form of a tablet or extract.

In the United States, it is found in both brick and mortar retail stores as well as online. According to the National Institutes of Health, there are risks associated with the use of kratom. People may experience mild to moderate withdrawal symptoms when they stop regular use. Surveys indicate that a small portion of users report experiencing substance use disorder symptoms. Additionally, some people who use Kratom have reported side effects such as nausea and dizziness, while serious neurological and cardiovascular side effects are less common. I will also note that some people use Kratom to self-treat opioid use disorder. Using it to help with symptoms and to alleviate cravings. I will share that our recovery services staff have seen some clients take this approach.

Some evidence of the effectiveness of this use is echoed in some early research and clinical trials that are underway. However, no Kratom products are approved by federal regulators as safe and effective for therapeutic purposes. and any marketing suggesting that the human health benefits of kratom is problematic. Given the current state of the science, BPHC recommends against kratom use for any reason. Safe legal treatments for opioid use disorder are available. For residents who may be using Kratom to help with opioid use disorder, BPHC's recovery services staff are available to help connect you with approved medication-assisted treatment. I also want to emphasize the distinction between kratom and synthetically derived compounds like 7-hydroxymetragynine, also known as 7-OH,

These synthetic versions usually include significantly higher concentrations of the psychoactive substance in kratom, interact with the brain in a way similar to opioids, and carry additional health risks. We are following the increased use of 7-0-H and we are seeing it for sale in our community. While we know that deaths from kratom use alone are very rare, additional data about overall use rates and adverse health effects and other measures are needed to understand the scope of the issue. For example, while data on kratom or its derivatives is not tracked in state substance use data, I do know that it has been found to be present in cases where individuals have died from overdose from other substances.

I think it's especially important to note that because 70H and products marketed as kratom are not regulated, these products also present issues related to contamination, purity, and misleading claims about health benefits. We have seen contaminations of Kratom products include salmonella or concerning levels of heavy metals. However, I will say it is important to place the risks that I've described here in perspective. Again, the majority of kratom-related overdoses nationally involve polysubstance use, most commonly with opioids, including fentanyl, benzodiazepines, or alcohol. While we have no documented evidence of any fatal overdoses attributable to Kratom alone in Boston, again, we do understand that it is often part of Use of multisubstances that does result in an overdose.

And while we want to make sure that residents are aware of the health risks associated with the use of all commonly misused substances, including emerging products such as 7-OH, We also do prioritize our interventions and programs to address the leading causes of death, opioids, and the full scope of services to prevent, engage, and treat opioid use disorder. Kratom and synthetic derivatives are a serious emerging concern and we are taking steps to address it. Internally, our recovery services team is developing guidance as well as education and outreach materials. In addition, BPHC's Tobacco Control Division inspects many of the retail outlets where these products are marketed and sold for compliance with tobacco regulations and at the same time They are gathering information about the presence of Kratom in these stores to better understand the availability of these products in the community.

BPHC is committed to substance use prevention, and we take a comprehensive, education-oriented approach particularly focusing on preventing youth initiation across substances. Especially with products that are relatively new to the community or are changing in potentially harmful ways, it is important to empower residents at all ages with reliable, up-to-date information about the risks associated with these products. We generally work to make sure that the guidance we issue is based in the latest data, including what we are seeing in the community. I will end by saying that if you believe someone in your life is experiencing an adverse event from 7-0-H or a product marketed as kratom, contact the poison helpline 1-800-222-1222, call 911 or visit www.poisonhelp.org for help. If someone is unresponsive again, always dial 911 immediately.

If you or a loved one is experiencing a substance use disorder related to 7-OH or any products marketed as Kratom, please call 311 and get connected with our PATHS referral program. who can talk residents through treatment options. I appreciate this hearing as one important opportunity to raise awareness with the public about these substances and I'm available to answer any questions you all may have. Thank you.

Thank you Deputy Commissioner McCann. Dr. Arcella.

Thank you Mr. Fitzgerald for this opportunity. Councilmen, thank you very much. Councilwomen, thank you very much for this opportunity. Just to explain my role somewhat. So I have served for 23 years in Lowell and the Chelmsford communities. I was a physician Private Practice. I'm an obstetrician, gynecologist by training, but I did surgical gynecology pretty much for 15 of those years. I was director of robotic surgery, director of minimally invasive surgery at Lowell General. I've been president of the medical staff at Lowell General Hospital. I retired from medicine now about two and a half years ago. So Kratom to us, who served in Lowell, is not new. There's a very large population of Cambodian, Southeast Asian, Vietnamese in that area.

We knew about it as a tea because the elderly would bring the tea leaves, crumple them, soak them, and make a tea. They would drink this because it gave them a little energy, would help calm anxiety, Mild pain relief from their osteoarthritis for the most part. Very much something that they had used in their culture, in their homeland. Now, in that tea, you have 0.2% at most of this very dangerous alkaloid called 7-OH-hydroxymetriganine. Now, move forward. It starts to get used, this derivative, as a synthetic. It is now being compounded to the point that in 2012 you get the first alert from the FDA about this product. It is being compounded at a 92% concentration instead of a 0.2 concentration.

and I belong to the Claremont Neighborhood Association and our president went shopping yesterday on Newberry Street. So we have a 90 milligram tablet of They describe it maxi-strength, 7-OH. Perfect for those who want liver toxicity, respiratory depression, sedation, along with a euphoria. If you're jittery on the way to work, Here's a 60 milligram drink you can have on the tea, all in one shot. Gets you a little power going, tropical flavored. And if you don't like that flavor, Here's an extract that you can put and just drop into your favorite coffee or any drink you want. And it also has both mitragynine and 7-OH. And both are actually dangerous. It's not just the 7-OH. The concentrations of both can cause liver toxicity, and that's really the biggest issue, along with respiratory depression.

So we've known about it for quite some time. FDA tried to get it banned under the Controlled Substances Act. Thank you for joining us. and there are 1.7 million users of these products in 2021, aged 12 and up. And by the way, none of these products required you to show an ID when purchased. and yesterday I was walking on Newbury Street and they were handing out free energy drinks out of a truck that was parked by the CVS. Nobody was asking for any age there. It was just being handed out freebie. We have now a product that the FDA sent a letter of alert to physicians in July of 2025, alerting us about this.

Now, sadly, in Lowell, we'd already experienced this. I'd experienced this. Because as a surgeon, I spent mostly three, four days a week in the OR. I can tell you the most critical issue that no one ever considers is not just what prescribed medication someone's taking, it's what supplements you're putting in. 7-OH, Kratom, however you wish to market it, wreaks havoc for the anesthesiologist. And it is as if though you're operating on an opioid user, a heroin user, You have a horrific time keeping them under. You can't get their pain under control. And the fine line between, oh, they're under and they're not breathing and dead is really tight because of the liver toxicity. You clear your anesthesia through your liver.

So this has been my background show on an average operating day. And from my associates who did neonatology, because I gave up obstetrics, they see the issue in the withdrawal symptoms of the newborns, because this is three times more potent than morphine. Thank you for watching. Put these babies through the same withdrawal protocols you would if you had a mom who comes in on any other substance we've had. So it is definitely not a healthy thing. It needs to be limited. It needs to be made aware to the public who are just like, oh yeah, let me pick up my energy shot as I head out of the convenience store.

Because if you can get it there, which it does in many states, that's too easy. And I know that the FDA has their hands tied. They are trying to get it banned through the Controlled Substances Act. But it's not the easiest thing to get, you know, Great analytical data on, and they're working on it. But we need to do more at the state level. There are many states that have been banning this. It's been banned in Alabama, Arkansas, Rhode Island, Vermont. But you can just go to your Google and you can get number 539 Kratom Seltzer. or you can get Cycling Frogs, another Kratom 70H product delivered to your home. It's available online, all of these are. I've got a whole list of, you know, Kava Kratom, They're all directed to the young. They are being flavored with the young.

Because like I said, if in 2021 they were already looking at a survey of 12 and up, I think we're probably going to find it even younger. And it's just made way too accessible. What's occurred in many ways is that it's slipped through all the silos we've created. We have a silo for tobacco and alcohol. We have a silo for cannabinoids. All of these supplements don't live under a silo. And because there's absolutely no FDA regulation as of yet, as my colleague said, it's not unusual to find lead. And by the way, everybody will test positive on their urine tox screen for fentanyl, because that's what it'll come up as on your screens. So it's a very common thing that I've seen When I have a tox screen, the patient's like, no, no, no, I'm not on the stuff anymore.

I just take an herbal. Oh, what is the herbal? I'm like, oh, God. And you contact the anesthesiologist, and you say, okay, let's prepare, because this is like a six-hour surgery, and it's not going to be fun. You're going to be playing this game between life and death because of the liver. And you cannot correct that. This is not a reversible. You don't want to be paying for liver transplants either. No. No, do they want to have them? No. So I think this is a substance that we've got many states, many municipalities, Lowell Banders, Drayton, all the communities around us Where I practice, banned it because of the accessibility issue. But you can just cross the border up to New Hampshire.

Of course.

So, thank you.

Great. Thank you, Dr. Seller. Really appreciate you. Mr. Babiou, anything you want to add of what you're seeing on the recovery side?

Yeah, I mean, a ton, but I know we have a lot of testimony here. Thank you, Councilor and Chamber, for allowing us to be here. It's so great to hear from you guys. My name is Peter Barbudo. I am the President and CEO of Gavin Foundation. As many of you know, Gavin is a legacy nonprofit here in Boston. Hosting many programs that serve individuals with substance use disorder. We strive to provide safe and structured environments for people who are working towards long-term meaningful recovery. Primary substances that we generally see are folks struggling with alcohol, heroin and other opiates, cocaine, benzos, amphetamines. Having said that, we've seen kratom become more and more prevalent as time has gone on. and has become more available at every smoke shop, gas station and specialty store in and around our city, as you've previously heard. Kratom can cause an effect very similar to an opioid. There is no age restriction to it.

No quality control, no warnings on the label, no testing requirements on the potency of the product. When we have patients or residents in pre-contemplation and contemplation stages of We are working to motivate them to find the desire to take action steps in their treatment. Substances like Kratom, which are very challenging to detect on any type of urine screen, can deter any motivation we can provide as a provider. We have plenty of individuals, as Councilor Flynn knows, his former colleagues in the probation department, you know we love our patients our residents that are that are in those stages that are there for you know maybe because they have some some concerns with probation or legal matters and it's you know

Drugs like this are used, and I do call them a drug because it is a drug in my opinion, to deter any urine screens or to stay off the screen of the probation department. It is marketed as a wellness solution, can give you energy, help you lose weight. It's a harmful substance and it is highly addictive. I commend you guys and the members of this committee for holding this hearing, and I look forward to playing a very small role in the solution of this. I came here. It gets sober from opiate use disorder in 2006 at the Gavin House. And so it's been almost 20 years. A number of... Thank you for joining us. You know, he got further educated. He got married, as did I.

He had children, as did I. And just amazing story of recovery and an incredibly high-pressure job. Our wives have become friendly. You know, we travel together. Our kids know each other. And about four months ago, he called me. He said, Peter, I need to have a conversation with you. I'm like, what's up? You know, this guy's a mentor to me, you know? Amazing. You'd know. And, uh... He said, I'm on drugs. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, you know, I've been so busy staying up with this job, and I had this big presentation, I went into this gas station, and, you know, it's just, It gives me energy, you know, so I bought it. And here we are six months later. I can't get off this stuff. And he's got three kids and a wife, and it came to light, and he's... Trying to prevent divorce and trying to keep his kids in his life and trying to keep his career.

Because he bought a drink at a gas station because he needed energy. And so when you called and you said, you know, can you come in? Like, yeah, 708 is, it's awful. And, you know, it's harmful to our residents, as Councilor Murphy had said at the beginning. So I'm here for him. I'm here for our residents, you know, and all the people we serve, and to make sure the city remains safe as you guys are, so I appreciate it.

Thank you very much, Mr. Babiuto. Compelling testimony from all of you, and I really do appreciate you taking the time. Again, like I said at this moment, I'm going to go into some public testimony so we can hear from some other folks, and then we'll go into questions from Councillors. I'd like to go to the in-person first, and Holly Trevelle, if I'm saying that correct? If you want to come up, just please come up to the mic. You will have two minutes. Please just introduce yourself and go on.

Hello. My name is Holly Truval. Thank you. This is my son, Tyrell. My name is Holly Truville, and I am speaking in favor of only a complete ban and no regulation on all kratom, synthetic and natural. I lost my only child, my 25-year-old son Tyrell, on February 6, 2024, from a trajanine toxicity. It was his sole cause of death with no secondary causes nor opioids in his system. The death certificate stated that Tyrell drank a Kratom Seltzer drink marketed as sugar-free, alcohol-free, caffeine-free, and had less than the 2% 7-OH in the drink that advocates claim is safe. This drink came from a company that says they follow GMP standards. Tyrell was born in Lower Mass, graduated from Dracut High, and served as... Massachusetts Army Reservist. I am sure many people will speak to you in favor of Kratom, most not from this state.

You will hear from lobbyists in their billion-dollar Kratom industry, business owners who sell it for profit, and users of Kratom. I have nothing to gain by being here today. My son is already gone. So my only goal is to prevent another parent from feeling the complete and utter devastation I feel on a daily basis. The fact that users say it helps them stay off opioids does not diminish the addictive properties of it. Regulation does not work. It does not just become safe when you turn 21 and scientifically proven the majority of deaths of men between the ages of 21 and 40. Pharmacology does not lie and you cannot change that either. Kratom is banned in all armed forces. The American Kratom Association and other Pro-Kratom lobbying groups repeatedly state that natural Kratom is safe and it has saved so many recovering addicts and the lives of people in pain. But what they won't mention is that there is an import alert by the FDA for Kratom and Kratom is snuck in under the guise of soap or seaweed. Therefore, who is determining that whole leaf is safe when it arrives into the US?

Just in the last three weeks, Connecticut passed all Kratom as a Schedule I drug. California took it off all of its shelves. And Tennessee, Kansas, and Iowa have forwarded bills to ban. Please look at where the trajectory of Massachusetts is heading and listen to the constituents of the Commonwealth. So far there are about 20 cities or towns with a complete ban, which I've passed out. And every week there is a town having a new meeting. I ask you to watch these public hearings and listen to why these boards of health are banning. As a teacher at one of the largest high schools in this state, I see the opioid crisis daily. I know that Boston fights that daily battle as well. It does not need another drug that attaches to mu opioid receptors and where the only people regulating and deciding dosages of Kratom are the businesses and consumers themselves. I implore you to ban all Kratom, natural and synthetic. Thank you for your time.

Holly, thank you so much for your testimony and thank you for being here on behalf of your son. And I know as many of the parents here in the room, we feel your pain and we're sorry about that. Thank you, I appreciate it. Absolutely. Up next, we have Amy Lackmoney. Sorry if I'm not saying names correctly, but you can correct me. Thank you.

Good afternoon, chair and council members. My name is Amy Lackmany, and I ask that you be on all in Boston. I lost my nephew Tyrell. Sorry, I'm nervous. to Kratom two years ago on February 6, 2024. You're going to hear advocates say that it rarely causes death or that it saves more lives than not, but both of those statements are untrue. My nephew did, in fact, die from this. Not 70H or synthetics. And secondly, not only did my nephew die, but besides physically, so did the rest of my family. My sister is basically the walking dead now, and the rest of us are just a shell of what we used to be. So for advocates to say it doesn't take a lot of lives, it's insulting. However, kratom advocates want to twist it. Natural kratom does kill. When it is ingested, it converts some in the liver through enzyme CYP3A4. That is not opinion but scientific fact.

There will be people testifying from the American Kratom Association and Global Kratom Alliance. They testify seeming like they are experts and are working towards public safety. But in reality, they are lobbying groups that help run and are connected to a billion dollar industry. Their main objective is profit and to ensure Kratom stays legal for profit. They will say that all these states are working towards the KCPA and regulating. That is untrue as well. A fellow on public policy for the AKA Mac Haddow admitted in a public hearing in Idaho last week that he knows natural doesn't always mean safe, and he is not a scientist nor an expert. His association, business owners, and others will say Southeast Asian countries have been using natural kratom safely for years. But what they don't tell you is that an article published on March 5th from the Bangkok Post states

and I quote, the drug problem among youth in Thailand has reached the crisis stage because narcotics, cannabis, kratom, and methamphetamine have become so easily accessible, according to an analysis by the Thai Health Promotion Foundation. How ironic is it that Thailand is one of the two countries that ships Kratom to the United States? So I please... I ask you to think about all of that. Thank you for your time.

Amy, thank you for taking the time to come down here on behalf of your nephew as well. We really do appreciate it. I don't think there's, and is there anyone else that I may have missed? Those were the only two names that I had to testify in person. Just wanted to double check for the rest. Okay. We'll quickly move on to some virtual testimony. If we're ready for that, mic all set. We have Bob Barney with us now from the Claremont Neighborhood Association in the South End. Bob, if you can hear me, you are up and you are good to go. Bob, if you're there, you can go ahead.

Yes, sorry, just unmuting. Yep. One second. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for this opportunity to speak. My name is Bob Barney and I'm here today to urge the City of Boston to take action to ban the sale of kratom in our community. Kratom products are increasingly being sold in neighborhood liquor stores and smoke shops across the city. Many residents have no idea these products are being sold near their homes, schools, parks, places of worship. Yet kratom can have highly addictive properties and can produce effects similar to opioids, including heroin. For a city that has worked so hard to address the opioid crisis, allowing these products to proliferate in everyday retail stores sends the wrong message.

This past weekend, I went out to see how easy it was to purchase Kratom in Boston. It was easy to find. It was easy to buy. There was really no requirements, nothing that kind of said, hey, you can't get this. So I actually went into a liquor store in the Back Bay and a smoke shop in the Back Bay as well without really any barriers or meaningful oversight. Across the U.S., many jurisdictions have already recognized the risks, and so my list might not be as up to date as others, in the panel, but Kratom is banned statewide in places like Vermont, Alabama, Arkansas, Indiana, Wisconsin. We're also seeing restrictions or Banning efforts underway in places such as Washington, D.C., Rhode Island, Kansas, Louisiana, and Ohio. If a smoke shop or liquor store

chooses to add Kratom products to their shelves, it should at minimum trigger community notification and meeting so that ISD can serve to let people know in the neighborhood that these substances are going to be sold in their neighborhood and pose a serious public health risk. Transparency and community engagement must be part of this process. While there is yet to be a statewide band in Massachusetts. Many communities have taken some really smart action. Municipalities included Belcher Town, Lowell, Chelmsford, Chelmsford, Drayford, Marlborough, Westboro, Attleboro, Bourne, Kingston, Canton have all taken steps to ban the product. Boston should show the same leadership.

I would also encourage the Boston Public Health Commission to maintain a formal list of high-risk products like Kratom that should not be sold in local retail establishments. Public health experts are best positioned to evaluate these substances and determine which products present unacceptable risk to our communities. Boston has been a long leader in public health and community safety. Our neighborhood should not become the testing ground for the next addictive product either. Boston can lead again by taking action now to protect our residents and our families. Thank you for your time and your commitment to the health of our city.

Thank you, Bob. Appreciate you taking the time. Up next, we have Wendy Lee Chamberlain. Okay, Wendy's no longer with us. Susan Cave is up next. And we'll see if Susan has signed on. Oh, it's Susan, okay.

Susan, if you are there and can hear us, you can unmute yourself and begin your testimony. Thank you.

Yes, sir. Can you hear me okay now?

Absolutely.

Yes, sir, thank you. My name is Susan Cave. I'm also the mother of William Cave, who died at just 32 years old from consuming raw leaf kratom, not 7-OH or not synthetic. He was healthy. He had no history of addiction or drug use or abuse. He was a loving father of one daughter and a devoted husband. And on April the 20th, 2024, my son did not come home. His toxicology confirmed that mitragynine was his killer and it was determined that he died from a toxic mixture of his prescribed antidepressants and raw leaf kratom. In the beginning, William and I were told that raw leaf kratom was safe, natural, and a benign supplement to help with anxiety and depression. And after consuming raw leaf for less than one year, William realized all of a sudden he had become dependent when he tried to stop it and couldn't because the withdrawals and cravings were so overpowering.

He took Raleigh for about four years before it finally took his life, and the last three years was spent trying to withdraw and stop, each time failing. If raw leaf kratom bands had existed earlier, William might still be here today. Please know that all synthetics, 70H, included, come from Raleigh-Cratom. And it makes no common sense to ban one and not the other. And how can you be a responsible Kratom consumer when so little is known about how to consume Kratom safely? A lot is mentioned about most deaths or polys due to kratom interacting with some other drug calling it polysubstance, but please don't forget that these can include prescription drugs like my son. There is no scientific study on how Kratom interacts with other drugs a person may be prescribed.

You may hear Kratom advocates talk about the single ascending dose clinical study. That was an early phase pharmacological experiment, not a safety study. The study was not intended to determine long-term safety or evaluate real-world use patterns. After William's death, I joined a national nonprofit called Kratom Danger Awareness, founded by Wendy Chamberlain. She apologizes for not being able to be here today. Now I advocate not only for William, but for thousands of other families who have been devastated by raw leaf kratom. Please know that in 2025, the Drug Enforcement Administration formally accepted our citizen petition requesting the scheduling of Mitragynine and 7-OH. That acceptance means that there's enough scientific and medical concern to warrant a full review under the Controlled Substance Act. Please listen to these families.

Please listen to these people testifying. Please support bans or or schedule Raleigh, Pridham. I appreciate you listening to me today. Thank you so much.

Susan, thank you so much for taking the time and for testifying today in front of the panel. and the City Council. And again, thank you for turning your grief into action, much like Holly and Amy with us here today as well. And from everyone here, Especially the parents here, our sincerest condolences to you, Susan. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you. We have two more folks. We'll start with Stephen Fox and then Dan Gibbs will follow him and then we'll be complete with testimony. Mr. Fox, once you are tapped on the screen, you can begin.

Are you there, Steve?

You have to accept becoming a panelist. I think if that's Mr. Gibbs, we can move. If Mr. Gibbs is on, we'll move on to him.

Yes, sir.

Great, Mr. Gibbs, please.

Yes. My name is Dan Gibbs. Hi, Dan. Give me one second, please. Chair and members of the council, my name is Dan Gibbs. I'm father of Austin, a 25-year-old young man who died from mitragynine toxicity, the primary active alkaloid in kratom. The medical examiner certified his cause of death as mitragynine toxicity. Toxicology did not identify fentanyl, heroin, prescription opioids, synthetic adulterants, or any other substances as contributing factors in his death. The case involved natural leaf kratom. Like many families, we have never heard of kratom until the end of our lives. After losing Austin, I began researching his substance and the policies surrounding his sale. Austin could not speak for himself today. I asked the council to consider his story carefully as you decide whether these products should continue to be sold in Boston. The primary alkaloids in Kratom interact with the same new opioid receptors associated with traditional opioid drugs.

Products containing opioid receptor active compounds present risks that simple retail regulation cannot solve. Even McAdall of the American Kratom Association stated, natural does not mean safe. The FDA has not approved Kratom for any medical use and continues to warn that it has been associated with serious... Adverse events including addiction, toxicity, and death. Notably, several countries where kratom naturally grows, Singapore, Malaysia, Cambodia, Vietnam, South Korea, Japan, and Myanmar have banned or strictly controlled it. The question before the council is whether Boston should continue allowing the retail sale Thank you for your time.

Mr. Gibbs, thank you so much and again. Much like many of other folks who testified, our condolences and sorry for your loss as well. We are here to help. Thank you. We'll finally finish up if Mr. Fox... We can conclude with you, I believe, if you've accepted as a panelist. And go ahead, Steve. Just make sure your mute's off.

Oh, sorry. Sorry about that. Thanks very much, Councillor Fitzgerald and other councillors. I appreciate it. I particularly want to thank the panelists for sort of laying out The circumstances that we in the South End face. So for those of you that don't know me, I chair the South End Forum. And one of the reasons that I wanted to testify today was not to repeat many of the comments that have already been made by so many. About Kratom specifically but about the fact that we have become aware of its introduction to our community by virtue of the creation of lots and lots of smoke shops. So while on the one hand I want to support any efforts to outlaw this particular drug,

I also want to call the attention of the committee, Councilor, to the issue of the creation of these smoke shops and the fact that they are, as of right, I think it's four or five in the South End alone. And these become the vehicles, at least the brick and mortar vehicles, for the distribution of these products. And Kratom is just one of many products. And for people like Peter Barbudo, they can tell you that the history of addiction is one of the introduction of new products every cycle. That is, it doesn't remain static. What I would like to suggest to the committee that we look at the issue of at least the licensing and the zoning

and the permitting that is done by the Boston Public Health Commission for smoke shops in particular and maybe for the products that are even sold at convenience stores. Thanks very much for allowing me to testify.

Thank you, Mr. Fox. I do appreciate it. And that concludes our testimony at the moment. So I would now like to... I'd also like to recognize we've been joined by Councilor Flynn, Councilor Weber, thank you very much colleagues for being here today. So I will start, we're gonna give everyone about five minutes of questions, but as the chair I'll take the liberty as also the maker of the hearing to sort of ask some questions further. That was some powerful public testimony. Right? And I think we can all agree that it seems that there is an issue here that needs to be resolved. What are the steps we need to take to ban the sale, and maybe this is to you, Deputy Commissioner McCann, to ban the sale of kratom and kratom-like substances in all stores in the City of Boston? Do you have an idea?

So as the hearing order proposes, a city council ordinance would appear. I'm not an attorney for the city of Boston, but I can say sort of procedurally, if adopted by By the council, that order to adopt an ordinance to prohibit would take effect and could be enforced in the same manner as other city ordinances.

I appreciate that. I think about the synthetic cannabinoid, the K2 spice, when that came around back in the day, and really just trying to use the same playbook on this, essentially, is what I'm hoping. Is there anything that was done then that can be done now through the Boston Public Health Commission without the ordinance? Are there other steps that we can take to supplement an overall ordinance?

The things around the ordinance can be as important as the policy mechanism itself. I imagine that The fact that it will make the news will generate public awareness about the types of stories that we've been hearing today that That many residents in the city might not have heard before I think the sort of those letters that go out to the retailers we have 750 or so tobacco retailers. There's some overlap but not complete overlap. I'm sure there are sort of herbal wellness store type of retailers that are also in the space, but I think the act of putting the retailer community on notice that these substances are not acceptable for sale in Boston gets, I think, compliance from many of them. We know from tobacco control that there are other

Bad actors all say that no matter how many times you go in with a 19 year old to confirm that they're not selling I think we'll want to learn from what happened with K2 back then, but also I think we can Thank you. Thank you.

I think that's appropriate just you know there are there are a lot of

It seems to me that there are some line drawing questions that could be raised and some nuance about the regulatory framework in the world around Massachusetts localities, that if things changed at the state, if a state law that created a more nuanced regulatory framework were passed, I think we would be required by law to defer to it. I think similarly if it were scheduled at the federal level, that would change. So I think the trick with drafting would be just making sure that it's Future proof against some of those policy changes that we may want to see but aren't seeing in the very near future.

Great. Thank you. And Dr. Stella, given the other towns around Lowell, that you were involved in, what did you see that was the most effective in terms of banning it and the enforcement of it? Because the follow-up is always sometimes... We can get the ordinance passed, but the enforcement's a little bit harder. How has it been and what do you see now and there in terms of its use?

Well, in all fairness, since my retirement, I'm not in the same positions that I was. But I think definitely the issue is that you can put in the ordinance, but you need to have more of the education as well. Because if this is being something that the kids can pick up as an energy drink on their way to Lowell High or, you know, Drake at High, you're not helping. You need to have, yes, definitely, public health, With enforcement going into these venues, going into the liquor shops, going in to the convenience stores, not just the tobacco shops. I mean, this all came up because in the South End, a wine store, was putting it into a basement, right? So I think we need to be a bit more open in terms of our catchment from what I've seen in Chelmsford, in Lowell,

They have tried to do this follow through. You are going to have a hard time because you do have a lot of trafficker from family members who are of Cambodian ancestry, of Vietnamese ancestry. That has to be managed. Best when we can finally get the FDA to do something and limit the leaf altogether. But I think what's really interesting is every one of these products came through a quote unquote pharmacy in Los Angeles. So if California has just instituted a ban, that should be interesting, how this actually falls out. But I think at the local sector, it's a combination of the education needing to happen. And I'm not waiting for high school. Yesterday, literally, walking in front of Brandy Melville with little teeny weenies, 11- and 12-year-olds, talking about needing energy drinks. I know I'm old, but I don't remember needing energy drinks at that age myself.

I agree.

So I think we need to target the education, start in the middle school, because the liver damage is permanent. And to those two speakers who had their children pass away, from a combination of a supplement, as it's still considered, and a prescription drug. Let's just start with more education about that, because to our fellow co-panelists, People don't realize supplements are drugs once they're ingested. They act chemically. There's no difference. And so you can have a cumulative effect on your cytochrome P450, which is what this targets. And then you're amplifying the illness, so to speak. So I think that was the key. They've done more on education. They are doing also the enforcement.

Thank you so much. I think maybe we could take it offline, but maybe between both Peter and PJ we can talk about sort of a public service announcement about education around this to try and get that circulated as well. Because when it came to me, it was the first I heard of it. and folks in my family. And I know that if that's the case, it's probably similar across many in the city. So I think an education is a great idea. Thank you, Doctor. Now go on to Councilor Flynn as a co-sponsor and then Councilor Murphy, you're in the hall.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the panel for being here, for Dr. and Deputy Commissioner, and to Peter, and I want to acknowledge Peter and the Gavin Foundation for the incredible work you're doing throughout Massachusetts and and many more. As a probation officer for eight years, I worked closely with the Gavin House and other residential facilities in getting It's people like Peter and so many others that never gave up on Boston residents, especially during their darkest hours, and tried to give them hope through recovery. When I was a probation officer, there was something, and I know it was referenced, it was called K-2 Spice. I don't know if that was the same thing, but it was unregulated.

which means you could legally use it but it was very dangerous and many of my probationers were on K2 and they were on other drugs as well. They were mixing a lot of drugs. But why I reference that is this new drug, not new drug, but Kratom that's being sold legally, In the south end is also being sold in South Washington, my neighborhood, in the Back Bay, and other areas across the city. When I was a probation officer, I also saw many People trying to beat the drug testing that I was supervising them. And if you weren't watching someone 100% of the time give the sample, there was a strong chance They were trying to beat the test.

But many of these places that you see smoke shops sell particular products that will help you beat a drug test. without getting into the specifics. I'm very concerned about that. I'm very concerned about this drug being legally sold. I was glad to partner with Councilor Fitzgerald on this. I do want to work with Council Fitzgerald and with other colleagues in working on an ordinance to ban this drug and to ensure it's not Thank you very much. We can have. But having said that, the status quo is not an option. We have to ban it here in Boston.

We want to work with city council colleagues to take that next step forward. But what people Thank you very much. Almost permission that you give that this product is okay if it's sold legally then it must be okay because there's been some government regulations and that's not the case and I believe the government has not done their job. We need to do our job ensuring people that are using this drug get the treatment that they need, but also for the general public to educate the public on how dangerous this is. We just heard from wonderful people that lost a loved one. That testimony is strong, is powerful.

And if we remain silent and do nothing, There's going to be more people that are going to overdose, unfortunately. Maybe let me just ask Peter one quick question. Peter, when people are using this drug legally and they test positive for fentanyl, how do you figure that part out?

That was the first I had heard of it. It hasn't screened as positive on anything. There's a special drug test that we would need to order through a lab. You know, in preparation for this hearing, when I initially talked to Council Fitzgerald, I made some phone calls, asked around individuals that work in employee assistance and oversee. You know, safety sensitive work environments, right? Federal DOT where there's mandatory drug testing requirements and they're struggling for that reason because it's undetectable. Okay. And I'm talking Public Safety, near and dear to our hearts and near and dear to where we sit right here. Transit Authority, I mean, anything that has DOT oversight, where there's mandatory drug testing requirements, you know, People are trying to beat the system, right?

Just like you referenced, because we shared a lot of the same individuals, as you mentioned. So just like K2, we're seeing a lot of similarities. Like Councilor Fitzgerald said, so it's been undetectable. There are, you know, specialized tests that you can't order, but they're expensive, not always covered, and, you know, Well, let me just ask one final question.

Yeah. Can anyone here tell us, tell the public, what are the withdrawal symptoms for people using this drug? You might test positive for fentanyl. which is one of the most powerful drugs around, but what are the, and it's almost very difficult to get off of fentanyl, but what is the withdrawal symptoms related to this drug?

The same exact ones as you have within the opioid. There are no difference. You have the nausea, you have the vomiting, you have the diarrhea, you have the incredible pain, you have the craving, you have the sweats. You can get to the point where you're having even respiratory issues. There is no distinction. It's the same as you would with morphine, with hydrocodone, with oxy. They're all the same because it's the same receptors. These agents target the same receptors that the other opioids do, the Mu and Kappa. Your body knows no difference. It doesn't delineate a natural versus a synthetic. It just knows that this receptor got hit with something that's three times more powerful than morphine. and now you're going to not have it.

Right. Generally, it would be deemed as an opioid use disorder, so the withdrawal management and a detox counselor would be Basically, opioid titration, right? And medication for opioid use disorder would be offered in that situation. Suboxone, right? Yeah, it's the same.

Well, thank you, and I'm out of time. I want to be respectful to my colleagues. Mr. Chair, I have no further questions.

Thank you. We'll move on to Terran Murphy, but I just want to add one more quick question. Someone I spoke to said the compound, when it is consumed, then will automatically change once consumed, and therefore that's why testing for it I think when you test for it, it comes out differently than the way it went in. And so that's what makes it hard. Do you guys have that same understanding?

I do, yeah. Yeah, that's part of it.

Gotcha. Thank you. Councillor Murphy?

Thank you. Thank you to both of you for filing this. I think we're just at the beginning of some advocacy here. And I want to thank the folks who gave some very moving testimony. Thank you for sharing. Such personal stories. And your packet is very informative. It looks like we already have 20 towns and cities in the state that abandoned. I'm hoping with us working together here on the council, we can be the 21st. So that's important. And thank you to the panelists, PJ and Dr. Stella. And Peter, you talked about your journey. When John McGann stepped down, I know many of us were worried, but he definitely picked the best person for that role. And as you know, you were the person who picked up the call when I needed that in 2014. You had, you know, your time at the Gavin.

My son had his time and now 12 years later is in a good place. So I'll always be thankful to you and all that you always have done for people who need it most. So thank you. Your testimony really covered all of the public health and medical evidence. Thank you for sharing such informative information there. If you could just touch more on We know that it's unregulated. I think I heard like it comes up UVC lead and others. Are there other traces of dangerous substances that come up in this synthetic crate?

The challenge, Councillor, is that because it's unregulated, we don't know they're happening cases of salmonella. Poisoning, it's also challenging to do the type of recall you might do with a consumer product if it's not a regulated consumer product. So I will say the fact that it exists in this gray area where it's not You know, sold as a food and licensed as a food and not regulated by the FDA as an effective treatment. So I think that is a challenge that we'll always see so long as these products are in a gray area.

And the youth access is always scary when I see kids, you know, even at the coffee shop in front of me getting like a double Red Bull something or other, and like you said, I had maybe chocolate milk every once in a while if my mom was in a good mood but it is scary though and the education piece I think we could work on this Body also. I know I've spoken with school nurses just around vaping and so many other things. So the education piece when we see, like you said, 11 and 12 year olds buying and going into these stores and having access. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Flynn kind of touched on that it's like what should a parent be looking for what should a teacher a school nurse be looking for at those younger stages and then we obviously have adults who don't realize the implication of it You walked into, it seemed, you know, like many just stores, but do we have data even though it's not needed to be regulated yet where it's primarily sold? Like, is it like all convenience stores? Like, it seems like...

I can share that again our tobacco control inspectors are in about 750 stores that have a license with us to sell tobacco products and we sort of have informally had them you know start to monitor for some of these gray market I think we all know the target is moving. Thank you for joining us. I think the way I think about our tobacco-controlled retailers here could be that we regularly do, when we see a product that we know to be illegal, refer it to BPD or ISD in inspecting.

So I think that communication about, especially if it's a chain, we know this whole chain of stores is likely carrying this. I think certain things like a cease and desist to the owner of that chain could be appropriate, but I think those are all details that I'd be happy to talk about in further planning and the details.

Thank you. What would we say, because some people have argued, and many of you mentioned it in your statements, but that they argue that it helps reduce opiate use, that there is a benefit to it. How do we push back on that it's outweighed by... The negative impacts on so many.

I do want to defer to the doctor, but I will first say that I think first that there are proven Medication assisted treatments that are available, Suboxone, and a strong network in Boston of organizations that are standing ready to help We would encourage people to try that as a first course. And I would also say that it hasn't been proven to be effective by any regulatory body for this. So I think with the state of the science as it currently is, Our position would be to engage with, you know, start, restart, start with three unwanted paths and

We can safely say we have a lot of other avenues, right?

Yeah, that we don't have to worry. We're leaving people out there without other resources. Okay. Thank you. Thank you chair

Thank you. Did you have anything to add to that?

No, I was just going to basically affirm that given that we have much better proven algorithms that have worked for decades, To go and take something because you heard from someone that this works, no, can't advise it at all. No, we've got so much better. Thank you.

And thank you, Council.

Council Culpepper? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Deputy McCann, are you familiar with the letter from the DEA, from Terrence Cole?

I haven't reviewed it recently. Have you, Doctor?

No, I have not. Oh, okay.

It was a letter that Terrance Cole responded to request to consider it under the Control Substances Act. And what they wanted was the mitragyna speciosa. That's the main chemical in the Kratom, right?

Well, it's also the name for the evergreen leaf.

Right.

Right. That's the leaf.

That's in the kratom.

Within it, you've got, which is later on, is the two alkaloids. That's what we're talking about for the addiction issue. That name is actually the genus and species for the evergreen.

Right. And so they submitted a request to have that considered under the Controlled Substances Act. Because right now, a DEA just listed it as a drug and chemical concern. And so I guess my question was, in the response, Administrator Cole denied even beginning proceedings to consider it under the Controlled Substances Act. And I wanted to ask you if you knew a little bit about why you even denied considering it and initiating proceedings to consider it under the Controlled Substances Act.

So, Councilor, I cannot speculate about that course of decision making, but I do think when asked what an ideal regulatory framework might look like, I think it would be that sort of framework. Broadly the substance is scheduled unless and until there are therapeutic uses that are found to be safe and effective through the FDA. and that's sort of the you're either in one category or another and you're not out here in in neither category and sort of enjoying the benefits of being legal without and and making scientific claims about Thank you very much. Federal Response could be helpful.

Have you seen that letter? It's in the package.

I haven't seen the letter. But I do know that the FDA in December issued a 46-page supplement and I provided that information ahead of time that resource information ahead of time in which they review all of the science that they have thus far and actually are trying to get this under CSA Act passed, but I've not seen the actual letter in that packet.

Yeah, you may want to take a look at that. Doctor, with regard to the seniors that used those leaves, the kratom leaves, how do you know they were kratom leaves?

Well, these were Cambodian patients. I worked in a community. I had translators in my office. And so it was typically obviously gynecologists, females, patients, and the translator would say that they were using the leaf, how they prepared it, steep it, and have the drink. It wasn't necessarily a daily thing either. This was more when they were having more discomfort, when they were feeling more nerve or fatigue or tired. This was a little pick-me-up that they would have.

Couldn't have been peppermint leaves? Because during the summer, look, I grow a lot of peppermint in the yard. I dry it out, and I have peppermint tea with the leaves that I've grown. So couldn't have been peppermint tea?

I'm just working with what I was being told via the translator, that this was native to them in Cambodia, and that this is the tea, and they didn't use the word kratom. They have, I guess, another... Can you talk about what Kratom Use Disorder is? Kratom use disorder is the same thing as substance abuse disorder. It is being basically an opioid use disorder. And it's just a matter of which choice drug are you using. But it's really that's what it's under.

And there are those that use this to treat opiate use disorder?

Yes. And that's the whole point. Why would you use this when you've got so many other resources available to you through public health? Thank you very much. No real quality assurance, variability in the amount you're taking. Unless you're a chemist yourself, how are you actually developing how much you're going to transform I mean it just seems that we have much safer and more supportive ways of avoiding the withdrawal and getting back

That's part of the danger of the use of kratom when they make an attempt to use it for the opium use disorder.

Well, I think all you're doing is substituting one drug for another.

One drug for another.

I mean, I personally know someone whose 30-odd-year-old son started out as a football player, got injured in university. got given painkillers for all the various operations, ended up being quite successful, happily married with children, but on heroin and managed to successfully, through the systems that exist in our state, get off the heroin, but now he's hooked on Kratom.

And so one final question. I looked at some of the stats and said, 66% of users meet the criteria for Kratom use disorder. What's that criteria?

I'm not sure specifically. Okay. As to that study that you quoted, I don't know it. I don't know if any of my panelists know.

I would suspect that a key prong is sort of difficulty in stopping. I think that's sort of the lowest bar of, you know, I think you hear these stories from a lot of the clients. Yeah, frequency of use, right?

I mean, so... As a result of an assessment done by a clinician, they would get into those facts, right? Age of first use, history of substance use, frequency of use.

The same things you would see with opioid.

And so these 21 cities that have banned it, I see a couple of cities... There's a final vote in Winchester March 23rd that's coming up. The final vote to ban it in April in Wakefield and Can you give us some more information on the March 23rd and April vote, just in case we might want to go see and hear some of the testimony that is presented for that final vote? That might be helpful.

Councilor, I'd be happy to share that. I'd also be happy to share I think a lot of the cities and towns that have considered bans have received advice from the Massachusetts Association of Health Boards. I think some of those may be recorded, but at the very least there are slide decks from those presentations. But again, would be happy to share those background materials and information about the upcoming hearings.

Thank you. Thank you, Councilor. I appreciate it. Durkan. What she's just handing out is what was handed us so as previously she will need those back but just for reference in this moment you guys can take a look to those thank you. Councilor Durkan you're up.

Thank you so much, Chair. And I just want to thank you for your and Councilor Flynn's leadership on this issue. I'm deeply concerned that this was being sold in my district this morning. I'm reading that Northampton where I used to live, I went to Smith College, and many more. I would like to know if the city has their public health commission declared the substance ban. I am curious if the city That with a stroke of the pen that the city could ban this.

Well, I will say that I think Their structure of their Board of Health may be slightly different than the structure of the Boston Public Health Commission. I think if the question is what is the fastest path to a policy change here, I think given that we are sitting here today in a public hearing and that the council has I believe again not providing legal advice but I believe similar We have legal standing to adopt a policy on this issue that perhaps a working session as suggested and then introducing a revised...

I guess I'm just curious, is the Public Health Commission have the legal ability to ban substances?

I would need to take that question back to our other attorneys, but broadly, I think both the City Council and the Board of Health both have the authority to ban it. I guess what I'm saying is that I think our process and the way we typically... You're saying if the will is here, the council should ban this? I'm not advising the council what to do. I just sort to say a bit more about our process. It has sort of specified number of days that notices have to be published. Online, in-person hearings, and then written public comment periods, and then introduced and put it on at Board of Health meetings. So that's just to say it's a longer and in some cases less certain regulatory process than an ordinance. So those are just some of the differences in the features of the process.

Got it. Yeah, like relative to what you do versus like what the council would do. I'm just curious as well, I mean, I find it deeply concerning that there's this whole conversation about what is under the shelves versus what is on the shelf, like given any substance. And I think that requires our due diligence in figuring out How we can fix that from a licensing and permitting standpoint because I actually find that deeply concerning that we don't know what is within the shelves of because I imagine there are other substances and this is sort of what I'm getting at is that it's Kratom today, it's something else tomorrow because we are constantly having, there's a deluge of O'Neill. These are off-market substances that spring up in order to meet the need of and many more.

I think it's important for drug addicts when their drug of choice becomes hard to find and this is deeply personal for me as someone who grew Peter, your story about your friend, my own family's history of recovery really that struck me as really We are deeply sad that someone could pick up something on a shelf and not realize that it would set them back in their recovery. I have the celebration dates of my family members in my calendar and celebrate them every year that they are clean and so for me this is I do want to ask, are there any other substances that are concerning to BPHC at this moment that are being sold over the shelves?

I will start by saying that tobacco remains a leading cause, an underlying cause of death. do focus a lot of our regulatory effort on making sure that we don't lose ground on the progress that we're making there. But in terms of emerging products, I think the council has also raised the issue of nitrous oxide and I think we sort of shared that concern I think the challenge that I'll just name again is that this is a moving target, especially with synthetic substances that That drafting something that captures whatever the next compound is, I think will be the real challenge, but we're here to partner now.

Well, and that's exactly my issue. It's like, it feels like we're just playing whack-a-mole with all these substances and I'm deeply We upset that permitting and licensing and ISD and all of these things have not come together to say if you're going to sell a new substance that you're selling to get people high that we have nothing to say or do about it. I understand there's a certain amount of free will when it comes to owning a business and selling and obviously a lot of times with nitrous oxide in particular people are literally We're selling it for X, Y, Z. So I understand that there's a little bit of, you know, if you know, you know, going on here. But I just want to thank Councillor Fitzgerald for your advocacy. Nitrous oxide is something that I know Councillor Louijeune and I filed something last year.

on that subject because that was also happening in District 8. I had no clue that you could so easily find this on Newbury Street, close to a school. We absolutely need to do something fast and I want to thank Fitzgerald, for his leadership. I think particularly I just want to ask one last question about BPHC's advocacy. Given that oftentimes you're able to follow sort of these public health initiatives throughout the state, has the city taken an official position on House Bill 2461?

I can't speak to an official position or whether it's sort of formally in an advocacy agenda, but I think we have Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. and 7OH suggested this is something that's crying out for regulation at the state level given the groundswell of local boards of health that are all sharing the same concern and sort of trying in their own way to address it that to Councilor Flynn's point the ability to know that We can't just cross over to the next town that happens to not have a regulation yet. So I do think We are supportive of a state-level approach. Again, also supportive of a federal approach, but I think we're sort of here in a space where neither of those are in place yet.

Thank you so much and through the chair I would just like to request if there's a working session that we include ISD and sort of like we have an idea of how in the future we can get sort of earlier on into permitting because I do think it's, if a smoke shop knew that they were in jeopardy for adding a new thing to their, they might, if they knew they were gonna be shut down by ISD the next day because they added a new, and many more. I'm sorry I'm getting so emotional but this is so clearly something that should not fall Through the regulatory cracks when City of Boston residents are falling into something they don't realize is harmful. So thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you, Councillor Durkan. And I think we all appreciate Councillor Durkan's echoing the urgency of whether the ordinance is, in fact, the way we go to make sure that it's on the books, but how to speed that process up. And to someone who testified earlier, Steve Fox, when he talked about, to your point, Councillor, It isn't just the Kratom itself, it is the stores and how are they, the role that they play in being the gatekeeper to some of these things. And I think you bring in a great point of we can't just allow it to be the next thing keep coming up through these type of establishments. and us having to play whack-a-mole with every new thing that comes along. So I think it's a great idea and one we will consider when we go forward on a working session. With that, I'll look at my colleagues and ask if there's just any other final questions or anything else that came up since you have spoke. Very quickly, if we can get that in and then we'll wrap this up.

Mr. Chairman, I'm good and thank you for the leadership on this issue. And your co-chair. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Culpepper. Thank you, Mr. Chair. In the interest of time, I won't ask any further questions, but I do want to see if we can work together on developing an ordinance on this, because this has to be in the system for us to work on immediately. And I think it's a priority for all of us to get this harmful drug off the shelves of Boston stores. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Councillor.

Councillor Duggan, I don't know if you had anything else to add. You good? Yep. Great. Well, I just want to say I appreciate you all for being here, for all the folks who've come to testify. I hope that everyone here, I believe there is a general sentiment about the direction that we want this to go. and the urgency that we wanted to go in. We understand that there are some regulatory barriers perhaps overall. But if other towns have done it, we can help nudge that along and send a message to the state to do a blanket regulatory process as well that I think will help a lot further going on. We hope that we continue to add our city's name to the list of other cities and towns in this state. I want to thank you all for being here today, providing your expertise, and to my colleagues who showed up. And with that, this hearing on docket 0175 is adjourned.