City Council - Planning, Development, and Transportation Committee Hearing on Dockets #1353-1354 and #1412

Thank you for watching!

Kate, City Councilor, and I'm Chair of the Boston City Council Committee on Planning, Development, and Transportation. Today is October 22nd, and the exact time is 1132 a.m. In accordance with Chapter 2 of the Acts of 2025, Modifying Certain Requirements of Open Meeting Law and Receiving and relieving public bodies of certain requirements, including the requirement that public bodies conduct its meetings in a public place that is open and physically accessible to the public. The City Council will be conducting this hearing virtually via Zoom. This hearing is being recorded. It is also being livestreamed at boston.gov backslash city-council-gb and broadcast on Xfinity Channel 8, RCN Channel 82, Files Channel 964. Written comments may be sent to the committee email at ccc.plandev at boston.gov and will be made part of the record and available to all counselors. Public testimony will be taken at the end of the hearing. Individuals will be called in the order in which they've signed up and will have two minutes to testify. If you wish to sign up for public testimony and have not done so, please email our central staff liaison, Shane Pack, at shane.pac at boston.gov for the Zoom link and your name will be added to the list. Today's hearing is on Docket's 1-3-5-3, message in order for the confirmation of the reappointment of Norman Stembridge as a member of the ZBA for a term expiring May 1, 2028 and docket 1-3-5-4, Message in order for the confirmation of the appointment of Rob Steinberg as a member of the St. Patel Architectural Conservation District Commission for a term expiring June 20, 2026. These matters were sponsored by Mayor Michelle Wu and referred to the committee on July 9, 2025. And Docket 1412, message in order for the confirmation of the appointment, of Salina Barrios Milner as a member of the Zoning Board of Appeal for a term expiring May 1, 2028. This matter was sponsored by Mayor Michelle Wu and was referred to the committee on August 6, 2025. Today, I'm joined by my colleagues in order of arrival. And right now, I'm just seeing Councilor Flynn. Thank you so much, Councilor Flynn, for being here. So the three nominations before us today are of utmost importance, looking to be filled by dedicated constituents that will shape and steward the future of our city and its built environment. Norm Stembridge and Selena Barrios-Milner are nominated to serve as members of the Zoning Board of Appeal and Rob Steinberg is nominated to serve as a member of the St. Patel Architectural Conservation District Commission. Both of these bodies play a critical role in how Boston grows. preserves its history and makes room for its future. It's not an understatement to say the Zoning Board of Appeal is one of the most consequential appointed bodies in Boston. By every measure, Boston's zoning code is significantly longer and more complex than other cities of similar size. It is more complex, constrictive, inequitable, and leads to inconsistencies. While many of us in the city are working towards thoughtful zoning code reform, given the above context, the ZBA plays an extremely crucial role in ensuring zoning laws are applied thoughtfully, balancing the needs of our city and what makes Boston unique. The St. Patel Architectural District Commission safeguards the architectural heritage of one of the most historic neighborhoods. As District 8's Councilor, I'm proud to represent four of the 11 historic and architectural districts, but this one is represented by Councilor Flynn. and I'm really grateful for his leadership on preservation. These aren't just bureaucratic entities, they're stewards of the public realm, trusted on how to weigh proposals that shape our cities Flynn. I'm looking forward to learning more from these three nominees shortly and how they will be assets to the city through these roles. I want to give a chance for my colleague, Councilor Flynn, to give an opening statement if you'd like to provide one.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be very brief. I just want to say thank you to Celina, to Robert, and to Norm for the important work that you already provide the residents of Boston providing exceptional leadership and looking forward to supporting and voting in favor of this. And I'm also proud to represent a small section of the Back Bay as well in the St. Petolf area. I have tremendous respect for the people of the Back Bay. But I want to say thank you, Robert, to Norm, and to Selena for the excellent work you have already provided the residents of Boston. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Councillor Flynn. I do want to read a letter into the record, an absence letter from my colleague, Councillor Pepén. Dear Chair Durkan, Mr. Clerk, and Council colleagues, I regret to inform you that I'm unable to attend Today's Committee on Planning, Development, and Transportation on dockets 1-353, 1-354, and 1-412 on various appointments. I will follow up with additional questions upon reviewing the recordings and my staff will take notes. Don't hesitate to contact my staff with any questions. Sincerely, Councilor Enrique Pepén. Okay, so with that, the way that we're going to go about this is we're going to give each of the nominees for ZVA and then also for the Saint Patal Architectural District Conservation Commission. We're gonna give you each two minutes to talk about your interest. You don't have to take up the whole two minutes, but just introduce yourself, Anything else that's relevant, where you live, anything you think is relevant. And then we're going to have a chance to ask you questions. So we're going to start with Norm Stembridge. So, Norm, you will give have up to two minutes and then we will and then we'll have an opportunity to ask you questions. Ram Steinberg will go next and then Selena Berrios-Milner will go third. So Norm, you have the floor.

Good morning, folks. My name is Norman Stembridge, and yes, I do go by Norman. Thank you, Councilor Durkan. Thank you, Councilor Flynn, for allowing me to be here this morning. I'd like to also thank Mayor Wu for sponsoring my reappointment to the Zoning Board of Appeal. Thank you for inviting me today to speak for my reappointment. I look at my My service to the City of Boston as a neighborhood mayoral appointee. It would continue to be an extension of the volunteer work that I've done in the neighborhood of Roxburg. I'm fortunate enough to come I'll stay away from any possible conflicts, real or perceived, for the work that I'm asked to do. I have and will continue to listen to the inspectionals. and for allowing me to be here today and speak with you.

Thank you so much, Norm. I want to give my council colleague a chance to ask any questions that he has about your nomination, and then I have a couple of questions.

Madam Chair, I don't have any questions. I just want to say thank you to Noam for his leadership.

Thank you so much, Councillor Flynn. Norman, just wanted to ask a couple questions that I'm planning to ask, I have asked and I'm planning to ask of all ZBA appointments and reappointments. How would you describe your philosophy on zoning and land use in Boston, particularly in light of the city's affordability and climate resilience goals?

As fairly tenuous, Councilor Durkan, we know that there's a housing crisis within the city of Boston, state of Massachusetts, and across this country. In terms of looking at the zoning, which needs to be redone as efforts have started with things like Plant, East Boston, Plant, Mattapan, and other. Again, what I see and what myself and fellow board members try to deal with is how does this still fit in terms of Moving this city forward, housing-wise and otherwise.

Thank you. How should the ZBA weigh decisions on projects that have already received BPDA approval? Do you believe the ZBA members should ever vote on a project that has been vetted and approved by the planning department Should I ever vote no on a project that has been vetted and approved by the planning department and board? If so, under what circumstances?

Should, could they be voted no? Yes. What we hear in terms of what's going on, not necessarily to the planning department, but for community input taken by the Office of Neighborhood Services. listening to residents, listening to advocates like Councilor Flynn and other folks. If you're Just coming in and rubber stamping them, no. But if it's apparently been vetted correctly by a number of parties, then... We'll go from there.

Yeah, thank you for that answer. I had seen a couple of examples in my time on the City Council of things that had gotten BPDA approval, board approval, but then didn't get ZBA approval. And I think in most cases, I believe that The BPA board does a good job of essentially rounding up all the city departments and getting like getting all of that feedback before it even goes to board. So I guess my advocacy mostly is that that should be a rare occurrence. And that's why I'm asking this particular question. How would you approach zoning variances decisions in high opportunity neighborhoods versus those that have typically experienced disinvestment?

Very careful. In terms of looking again, looking at all the factors involved. probably looking to give deference to neighborhoods that I'm familiar with that need more investment, better investment. along those lines not to downplay other areas of the I'm going to be open-minded but I'm probably going to be looking at those neighborhoods Thank you so much, Norm, for

Stepping forward, continuing to step forward. I know that this work is, it takes a lot of passion and a lot of caring about your neighborhood and your community in our city. So I just want to thank you for stepping up to serve and and also for stepping up again. I know that civic leaders like you and folks who serve on these particular bodies play a really important role in the city. So I just want to thank you for that. I do want to announce that we've been joined by Councilor Erin Murphy. Councilor, we are on Norman Stembridge's reappointment to The Zerning Board of Appeals. Just wanted to see if you had any questions.

No, thank you. I've been listening in. Thank you, Norm, for the work you've done and just here to support and the questions that were asked. You gave great answers. which I knew you would, so thank you. Nothing else.

Thank you so much, Councilor Murphy. Okay, Norm, do you have any last words? I think we're done with questions unless you have anything else you'd like to say.

Thank you for the time. Thank you for inviting me today. And I do appreciate it very much.

Awesome. So I plan to move forward with your nomination. of Reappointment at the next meeting. So thank you so much, Norm.

You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Councilor Durkan.

Thank you. So Rob Steinberg, we are going to Um, go to next. So a little bit of a shift. You're being appointed to the St. Patel, um, It's a long name. Saint Patel Conservation District Commission, Architectural Conservation District Commission. So just wanted to give you a chance up to two minutes to just open up with why you're interested in this position.

Well, thanks very much for allowing me to be here. I appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity to serve my neighborhood and to serve the city of Boston. I'm going into my fourth year here at St. Butts Hall And so I am fairly new to the city, but I appreciate the vibrancy, the beauty of our city. And I have been a lifelong student of American history and of architecture. and I hope to put that to use in this position. I'm a civil engineer. I spent a dozen years as a construction project manager, so I do understand a bit about The building trades and how buildings fit together and how they impact the livability of the city. And that is my interest, historic preservation, yes, but also in the context of a living, breathing, and wonderful city to live in. And that's how I hope to make a contribution.

Thank you so much. I want to give Councilor Flynn, since this is his district, a chance to ask any questions that he has first.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't have any specific questions. Again, just want to say thank you to Robert for The important work and leadership he's providing the residents of Boston. Honored to represent a small portion of the Back Bay and have great respect for the St. Petolf Neighborhood Association as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much, Councilor Flynn. So Rob, just wanted to ask, what are your favorite architectural characteristics of the St. Patel, you know, Neighborhood. And just curious, what are your favorite parts about living in the St. Patel area?

Having spent most of my life actually in the suburbs of Boston, but also in other states, It sort of forms a background for me. I enjoy Boston's history. And when you walk around my neighborhood, you see these wonderful three-story buildings that have the heart and soul of the Masons that built them poured into it. You see some stained glass, you see header courses, you see corbels, all the different artisanal Touches that a mason can add to a building and In my neighborhood and in many others, obviously in the city of Boston, there's a lot of pride that people take in these buildings, in the neighborhood, down the Southwest corridor, and the history of the Southwest Corridor and the people that rose up to say this is our neighborhood and we don't want a highway to go through it. and instead we have this lovely, lovely park that's enjoyed by so many people that go through it. And as you wander through this residential neighborhood, which is so very quiet and so very lively, Depending upon the time of day, you look up and you see the glass skyscrapers that show you the might and power and Commerce in the city of Boston. And that juxtaposition is just beautiful to have a living, breathing city where so many residents are comfortable, understanding that many aren't and we have to do better. With the engines of growth in the city and that we can have both and do both and do better and continue to build our city.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. And I definitely Huntington is the line for me. So so I represent up until the crew. So I think I know Councilor Flynn and I are working on a lot of the issues along that like shared. I'm in the St. Patel area a lot and it's such a great area. So really appreciate it. Really appreciate you stepping forward to serve, I think. And I am planning to move forward your nomination at the next meeting. And so then you'll be seated and hopefully hopefully can deal with any issues or any irregularities that need to be dealt with in the St. Patel neighborhood. But can you talk a little bit more about your work background, just like what experience you're bringing to the community To this district commission?

Sure. I was educated at MIT. I'm a civil engineer, and I have a master's degree in construction management, as well as an MBA from Sloan. and I spent a dozen years as a project manager directing all sorts of work, everything from a light manufacturing facility that was designed by Shepley Bulfinch to the arts and media facility on the campus of MIT designed by I.M. Pei and partners. to the Rose Wharf Complex. I was involved as assistant project manager on the hundred condominiums that are there. And lots of smaller little projects, sewage treatment plants, et cetera. And so I have an understanding of materials and design and construction and labor unions and The effort that goes into the built environment as well as how it impacts the people that live and work in it and the people that live and work by it. and it's a fabulous intersection of technology and materials and people and Investment that goes to the heart of how people live and work. in an area. And architecture has a huge, huge impact on how people feel. And I learned that as a student. I was very fortunate to be in a building designed by Alvar Aalto, who is just a father of modern architecture. and the way that building is designed promoted interaction amongst the students in a way that most buildings don't. And I was... I live that every day and I carry that experience with me as I look around the city as to how things are built, the quality of how they're built, and How the design impacts the way they're used and the people that walk by it, the people that live in it, the people that work in it. It's amazing what architecture can do to the human psyche.

Wow. I mean, it feels like every, this is one of my favorite things to do as chair of this committee is is overseeing the appointments to these various commissions and committees. But it's really interesting. I feel like every single time we do one of these hearings, We like there's like a bunch of unicorns of like how did they find this person that's done this and this and this and this so I just want to thank you for and many more. Thank you. architecturally significant buildings and landmark areas like I understand that without all this work and all this expertise, our built environment would look very different. But I just want to thank you for stepping up to serve. I also want to give my colleague, Councilor Erin Murphy, a chance to ask any questions you may have.

Hello. Sorry, I'm going to keep my camera off. I'm almost parked. Thank you. I think like Councilor Durkan just said, oftentimes we can just suspend and pass these Thank you so much for joining us. The mayor and the administration saw when they first appointed you. So clearly your love, your pride, your knowledge, and your commitment to making sure that not just the neighborhood you live in, but the whole city has your leadership and going forward on projects. So just thank you for stepping up. Thank you. I'm just looking forward to voting in favor of your appointment when it comes forward to us. Thank you, Jo.

Thank you so much, Councilor Murphy. So with that, Rob, I don't know if you have any last things you'd like to say before we move on to the next nominee.

I appreciate the kind words spoken today and I'm looking forward to contributing to the city.

Thank you so much. Okay, well hopefully we'll see you around town soon and look forward to moving forward with your nomination at the next meeting.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. And so next is Selena Barrios-Milner. Selena, I know you've come before this committee, I think, in the past year or so. I've seen you before. Really great to see you on Zoom. Thank you for stepping up to serve. Just wanted to ask you sort of the same questions as I asked Norm, because I've been asking those of all the ZBA nominations that have come through. But I also wanted to give you a chance to open up with why you're interested in the position. So I'll give you up to two minutes.

Thank you so much, Councillor Durkan. And thank you, Councillors Flynn and Murphy for being here. And thank you to Shane for making this meeting possible. I'm Celina Barrios-Milner. I'm a resident of West Roxbury and I've lived in Boston for the past 23 years and have lived in Austin Village, Bay Village, Roslindale. In those times, I've been a renter. I've been a couch surfer. and I'm now a homeowner in West Roxbury where I'm raising my family and so I have a lot of love for the city of Boston. I started out my career here as a community organizer and I think that's sort of My DNA, no matter where I go, I've gotten to knock on probably most doors in the city of Boston, ridden every T-line and bus line and have seen both the incredible resources and opportunities in the city as well as the disparities and uneven access to those resources and opportunities. So that has led me to work in the city in the Immigrant Advancement Office. I worked in the economic development department as director of equity and inclusion and helped stand up our supplier diversity program. I also oversaw our BRJP local hiring policies and ran the Boston Employment Commission. So I know a little bit about what it takes to create these spaces for community Thank you so much. Thank you. and how to be inclusionary and make sure that we're leveraging our greatest resource as a city and city government to create the most opportunity and equity throughout the city for all of our residents. Really an honor to be here. And I think just to put a finer point on it as someone who has a lifelong commitment to community engagement, Equity and Economic Mobility. I think our land and how we use it and our built environment is probably the greatest lever, at least at the city level, that we have for For creating opportunity, for supporting aging in place, for supporting accessibility for all of our residents, I really take this responsibility Very seriously and know how important each and every parcel and home and unit is for the prosperity of our city as a whole.

Thank you so much. And I want to give my council colleague, Councilor Flynn, a chance to ask any questions. And then I'm going to ask the three questions that I asked to our other ZBA member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just want to say thank you to Celina for the important work and leadership she has provided the residents already. I've had the opportunity to work with her for all the years and have great respect for her. Looking forward to voting in favor of her and the others as well. I just want to say thank you. Thank you to Selena for being with us today.

Thank you, Councilor Flynn. So I'm going to ask my three questions. And you did describe this a little bit, but the question is, can you describe your philosophy on zoning and land use in Boston, particularly in light of the city's affordability and climate resilience goals?

Yeah, absolutely. And I actually failed to mention probably a pretty important qualification or experience that I have, which is I'm currently on the Landmarks Commission and also serve on a district architectural Commission in the Highland Park area. So I'm really excited for you, Robert. And, you know, when you get to the landmarks point, you're sort of seeing something at the very end. You know, it's sort of gone through BPDA approval, If there's any relevant ZBA variances. And so we're kind of seeing it at the end. And I think A lot of the interests of the community that I've seen is to protect what they have, what they've built, but also to create opportunities for people to be able to build Thank you so much for joining us. That's a difficult balance sometimes to both support a neighborhood evolving while also protecting you know the the historic nature and also what makes it special in terms of quality of life and so I think those are really One-by-one decisions, at least at this level. I know there's bigger, higher-level zoning that the BPDA leads. So my philosophy is always balancing those interests. and being responsive to the needs of today, but also taking into account the vision that we have for the city and making sure that it's a city people can live in. I hear and know so many friends that grew up here that can't I want to be a part of changing that, that everybody has an opportunity. to live in every part of the city, whether it's high opportunity areas or areas that have experienced disinvestment. I think it's really important that Boston remains accessible to all Bostonians. So I think that's the lens I would bring to it while also, you know, balancing, taking also into account not just my vision and values, but the expertise recommendations of the city staff that have been trained to really analyze code and analyze buildings. As well as community, you know, desires for their neighborhoods. And so I think that I'm going to go into each hearing having prepared, having read up, and also with a listening mindset to make sure that we're making The most beneficial decisions for the city in each of those projects.

Thank you. That was a great answer. This is the question that I asked Norm. How should the ZBA weigh decisions on projects that have already received the PDA Board approval? Do you believe that ZBA members should ever vote no on a project that has been vetted and approved by the Planning Department and Board, and if so, under what circumstances?

Yeah, I mean, I think I don't like to think in the world of absolutes because for so many people, You know, I'm an immigrant. My background is being an immigrant. I've worked a lot on equity issues in the city and I know that the rules don't always seem to apply to everyone equally. And so I think that I would definitely take the expertise and also understand that every time you go through these processes, it's costly. It takes time for the applicants. And so I would not, I would take very seriously if I was going to go against something that's already been thoroughly vetted, but I won't say I never would, right? Because I I don't like to think in the world of absolutes knowing there's always room for gray. I think some of the criteria we take into account is sort of The hardship to a particular applicant, the impact to the neighborhood and making sure that we're not harming the neighborhood. I think some of that is what could lead us to interpret a case differently than perhaps Others that looked at it before us, but again, I don't want to say I absolutely would or wouldn't without having the specifics in front of me.

Yeah, absolutely. And the reason I've started asking this question is because there were a couple of projects where, well, at least one I can think of where the project, and I don't want to get into the specifics, but essentially the... Project got BPA board approval and then it went to ZBA and it was not approved based on how many parking spots were there. And I personally feel like I understand the impact of parking on neighborhoods. But I also understand that there's a thorough BTD and process that every city department has weighed in on a project before it goes to the BPA board. So just my advocacy is that if it's particularly about parking and it's been vetted by the BPA board, I absolutely am in support of going with the BPDA's recommendation particularly in that respect because I mean the BPDA has I should say planning department has transportation You know, expertise has a lot of the expertise that is needed, but I do understand why these checks and balances exist, why these commissions exist, why there is state authority to, you know, are all involved with creating some of these additional checks. So it is important that the processes be done separately, but I do just want to say that as a city, The idea that a certain amount of parking spots need to be built with new residential development near transit hubs like the MBTA is something that I do think is and has an impact on our affordability. as a city, and other cities that don't have an MBTA have gotten rid of parking minimums. So it's like the fact that Salem, Massachusetts, that only has a commuter rail, doesn't have parking minimum requirements, but a place where buses and the T are frequent. And maybe it's specific neighborhood by neighborhood, but I do think That is the weight that's on the shoulders of the ZBA at certain points is ensuring that we can build housing in the city. And so I would be remiss if I didn't. fully state my opinion to those that will continue and those that will serve on the ZBA because I think it's important. And I think we're in a moment in the city where We really are asking the question. I mean, I moved here making $45,000 a year. I had to live with multiple roommates. I am really lucky to live in naturally occurring affordable housing on the North Slope of Beacon Hill. It's not in the best condition, but I live where I live, and I do think there is... A moment we're in as a city where our young professionals like me who moved here 10 years ago are going to be able to live here. And I do think I have a duty to represent those people. And so as you know, the You know, most recent person to move to Boston that's on the city council. I feel like I also represent that next generation of people who want to live here. and so I find that work really important and it does make me sometimes get really emotional about these issues and about these topics because I want the next me to be able to move here and to thrive here. So my last question is, how would you approach zoning variance decisions in high opportunity neighborhoods versus those that have typically experienced disinvestment?

Yeah, I think that that is a struggle that most major cities are facing that's sort of like overdeveloping and overburdening some central neighborhoods. Um... Disinvestment and other neighborhoods that tend to be lower income and have more people of color and then you have like the high opportunity neighborhoods that that want to preserve, you know, the quality of life like that. That's sort of like, I would add that 3rd, like. The downtown area sort of as part of that triangle of You know, tensions that you have to manage. I think I would always approach decisions based on, you know, In some neighborhoods, we have that they've been rezoned. In some neighborhoods, there's been conversations around community needs and and Desires, but it hasn't been yet formalized into new zoning. And then there's ones that still need to be tackled. And so I think I would try to meet the needs and desires of the Thank you so much for joining us. Again, it's like we're looking at things at the micro level here, kind of like project by project, but trying to take that maybe 50-foot view, I won't say like 10,000-foot view because I don't know if that's in our purview, but to say, well, what's going on in the neighborhood overall and what does the neighborhood need overall? And so I think I definitely think Inclusionary zoning is going to be the answer for how we continue to share the prosperity across the city and make it the most livable city for everybody.

Thank you and yeah and I think there have been some conversations of the City Council about gentrification and I often find that oftentimes we're talking about the gentrification that comes with development but we're not talking about the gentrification that comes from lack of investment and lack of development. So there is no development without gentrification. That's a phrase that people say all the time, but there's also, gentrification with lack of development because it means that You know, I mean, look at the South End, you know. So look at some of the neighborhoods that have been impacted the most by gentrification. It's because there wasn't additional housing stock to be... So that meant people renovated previously affordable homes. And that really, I do believe that some of the development that's happened in different neighborhoods have meant that I can continue to stay on the North Slope of Beacon Hill because there's other luxury type units that are being built so then and many more. Thank you. on units being built throughout the city. And so that's why I think that question is so important because the reality is we do need to have a conversation that's nuanced and that isn't just full of talking points. It's filled with the economic realities of What it means to build here and not build here. I do think the city should be taking more of a role in taking developers to different parts of the city. and really explaining sort of the amenities that are needed because the reality is there's a lot of amenities and infrastructure needs that could be solved for. if we took a really proactive approach. I could go on for forever and now none of my colleagues are left here. But thank you so much, Selena. I'm excited to move forward with your nomination at the next meeting. And to Norm, to Rob, to Selena, Thank you so much for stepping up to serve. I think that these positions are so important and they will have a lasting impact. The impact that you're making on our city will be felt for decades to come and so I just want to thank you for stepping up to serve uh for to Norm thank you for stepping up again um and um I don't think, Shane, is there any public testimony?

I don't have any, Madam Sheriff.

And is Joe Cornish in the waiting room, perhaps?

Yes, I can bring him over.

Yeah, I think he usually would like to speak to the district commission. Hi, Joe, just wanted to give you a chance to speak to Rob's nomination.

Sure. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. And thank you for Rob for being here and for being willing to serve on the St. Patel's Area Architectural Conservation District Commission. We are very happy to welcome him. and we're just excited to have this opportunity to ensure that we have good representation from the neighborhood. So thank you.

Thank you so much, Joe. And thank you for all you do. We, I mean, You know, anyone who's ever served on an architectural commission knows The work that you do. And we had a whole hearing where the whole hearing was just praising you for all your work. I remember that happened last year. I think everyone who has worked with you has loved working with you. So thank you for all that you do for our historic neighborhoods. So with that, we are going to adjourn this hearing. This hearing on dockets 1, 3, 5, 3. 1354 and 1412 is adjourned. And I don't have my gavel, but just imagine this is the gavel. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you very much, Councilor.