City Council - Rules, Ethics, and Administration Committee Hearing on Docket #0475

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for watching!

Thank you for watching!

Good morning everyone. For the record, my name is Liz Breadon, City Council President, District 9 City Councillor and Chair of the Boston City Council Committee on Rules. Today is August 13th, 2026 and the exact time is 10.08 a.m. This hearing is being recorded. It is also being live streamed at boston.gov backslash city-council-tv and broadcast on Xfinity Channel 8, RCN Channel 82 Fios Channel 964. Written comments may be sent to the committee email at ccc.ra at boston.gov and we've made a part of the record unavailable to all councillors. Public testimony will be taken at the end of the hearing, individuals would be called on in the order in which they signed up and will have two minutes to testify

If you're interested in testifying in person, please add your name to the sign-up sheet near the entrance of the chamber. And if you're looking to testify virtually, please email our central staff liaison Megan at MEAGAN.CORUGEDOMARTAN at boston.gov for the link and your name will be added to the list today's hearing is on docket number 0 4 7 5 order for a hearing to review the application and intent of rule 15 This matter was co-sponsored by Councilors Erin Murphy and Councillor Flynn, and was referred to the committee on March 4th, 2026. Today I am joined by my colleagues in order of arrival, Councillor Flynn and Councillor Murphy.

And we have a letter of absence from Councillor Pepén. I'd like to start with some opening remarks. I want to thank Michelle Goldberg and Alex and the City Clerk for being here, and to bring Rosa Orsis to this process. We began this term with a collaborative rules process Multiple Working Sessions. This hearing is a great opportunity to discuss the rules and ensure they are meeting the needs of the Council and current practice. This is a chance for us to step back, look at how the rule is functioning and ask what improvements if any might help us operate more smoothly. Every councillor has been a rule 15 at some point. There's a shared desire to make sure our rules are leading to... Excuse me? Our councillor has been...

Every councillor has been ruled 15 at some point and there's a shared desire to make sure our rules are leading to as smooth a council process as possible. We've also been joined by Councillor Fitzgerald We'll start off, I'd like to also introduce today's panellists. Alex Goronkas who is our City Clerk of the City Clerk of the city of Boston, and Michelle Gulberg who's the central staff director for the city We'll open up with two minutes opening statements for our colleagues. Councillor Murphy, since you're the lead sponsor, if you'd like to start. Thank you.

Thank you. It's different to see you, Michelle and Clerk across but thank you for being here Like I said, I know since it's my fifth year on the council we have had and I think it's a productive thing to do. I'll meet during a term in the curly room talking through the rules. I know when Councilor Flynn was the president, a couple of times we just went through all the rules to kind of make sure we were in understanding We're using them to the true intent and making sure everyone on the council feels as though the rules, they're not supposed to be used against us. They're supposed to support us and help the work that we push forward. I was telling you Clerk Drentis that when I looked back, we filed this over five months ago. So sometimes the intent then, I had to remind myself why I felt the need to put it to a hearing

and there have been times where certain filings have been Rule 15. I do just want to take a couple seconds of my time to make sure those listening in, it's clear what Rule 15 means But there have been times where I felt even after speaking to the clerk and speaking to you, Michelle, that it still maybe had been pulled or didn't seem as though it was being consistently applied across the board. So Rule 15 governs the filing of matters that are duplicative or of substantial similar matters already in committee, or previously acted upon during that municipal year. It provides that it shall not preclude filings whose content is on a different subtopic or for which a hearing or debate would not result in the same hearing, or the same debate as a previous filing. So of course, there is open to interpretation.

The clerk is charged with placing on the agenda only the first filed matter when filings are determined to be duplicative or substantially similar. and in the case that brought me to do this, it was a Women's History Month resolution. And I did get a call at my house On a Friday morning from the clerk to say, you know, these are similar. And then we talked through and changes were made in time. And even though those changes were You know, other things kind of snowballed after that. But I think it's important that consistency and clarity in this conversation, I hope will get us to a place where people feel as though things are being done fairly. 100% agree that if something is duplicative, and many more. If rules apply to everyone, you can't file it. I also think there's a small, right? It's a finite. It's not an infinite number of filings that we

When we all care about many of the similar quality-of-life issues, so maybe it's a different intent or a different outcome we're hoping for and they may seem similar but I do think We should make sure we're using the rules to support each other and support the work that ultimately, we're always trying to uplift the residents not personally ourselves. So looking forward to this conversation and thank you for both of you for being here before it. Thank you. Flynn.

Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you for your leadership on this issue, Madam chair and want to say thank you to our city clerk into the staff director for the important Thank you to Councillor Murphy for bringing this forward, including me as an original co-sponsor. Murphy highlighted the importance of rule 15. One aspect of Rule 15 I just want to stress is Having everybody be consistent. Everybody knows the rules, everybody knows what to expect. Ensuring that everybody is heard, everybody has respect even when we disagree

We can give someone an explanation of why Rule 15 might preclude that matter from moving forward and with an explanation that it's duplicative or very similar I think that answer with an explanation goes a long way. So, I just want to encourage my colleagues to continue to work with the chair, work with city clerk, with the staff director as well. And this is an important city council hearing, one of the most important of the year because it gives everybody an important opportunity to ask questions directly to the clerk Thank you very much.

and this is the time to do it. So I want to welcome all of my colleagues that are here, I know City Councillor Fitzgerald is here as well. Thank you Madam Chair.

Thank You. Councillor FitzGerald?

Thank you, Madam President. As always at the beginning of this year when I first blocked the first meeting to make sure we understood the rules of starting off the city council year, I always appreciate understanding the rules more and making sure we're all on the same page and so I'm here to learn and educate myself more and look to you guys as always. And thank you all for the work you do to educate us every day, appreciate it. That's all, thank you ma'am.

So I've introduced our today's panellists. I'd just like to give you Mr Clerk and Michelle, Director of Central Staff. If you have any opening remarks to make at this point.

Yeah, I think you're good. Well, happy to be here today for this discussion. Really fun to sit on the side. I didn't really prepare a big opening statement or anything like that, but I think all of you covered it in terms of the city council rules are meant to support the work of the body. and that's the whole point. So important to review them, make sure they are doing what the body wants them to be doing and equally important to make sure that counselors, staff and the clerk's office are all on the same page. So thank you to the chair. Thank you to sponsors. Thank everyone here for

The opportunity to talk about Rule 15 which is one of our more, I don't want to say confusing but rules that are sometimes difficult to interpret. Thank you. Mr. Clerk?

Thank you, Councilors for the invitation to be here today. Likewise myself it's a great opportunity to review the rules and rule 15 For me as the clerk and our staff upstairs, we take great time upstairs to review Rule 15 items when we get them. The process can be difficult and time consuming, but we do get things done and determine what the choice will be and contact the council is affected. And I look forward to the conversation.

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. We've been joined by Councillor Durkan and Councillor Weber. I have allowed my colleagues two minutes of opening comments.

Thank you so much, Council President. I think it's always important to review the rules. They're incredibly important. And I also believe in Supporting the Clerk when he makes certain determinations. There was an instance with Rule 15 where I think I had three I did cite Rule 15. and so on. Upon further review, I do think rule 15 is really intended to be used by the clerk and not by city councillors but with that being said and so forth. So, you know carte blanche to not pass something on the first day that it's introduced if and or if it at all needs more time.

So I definitely stand behind my initial, I did think it was Pretty similar. But I don't want to be considered someone who's just doing things on the basis of I appreciate this hearing and the chance to talk about it. I think that when we get a call from the clerk saying that our filing is too similar, there have been times where I've just withdrawn my filing and said OK great. I'll support the work of my colleague that's doing that work. and I think we actually have to talk to each other to have those conversations. And I think as a body, we need to have more communication and more collegiality and we do need to

I think in the case where someone has filed something super similar to you, it might behoove us to pick up the phone and see if you can be a second or third rather than filing something very similar. Thank Thank you, Councillor Durkan.

Chair recognises Councillor Webber. You've got two minutes.

Thank you very much. I think if you look at the history of The language of Rule 15 and why it's there, there's good policy reasons why you would have something like that to prevent duplicative filings and to be able to keep the body moving forward and efficient. and to prevent debate over the same thing over and over again. And I also appreciate that we have a sort of non-partisan clerk who's an umpire calling Balls and Strikes. And so Rule 15 is something I know in our office we talk about a lot, it's one of you know when we're talking about an idea whether to file something if we get Rule 15 We don't file it, and look forward to the conversation to figure out if there's any ways we can improve the function of the rule or how to work with the clerk or how better to work as a body. I'm all for it. Thank you.

So we'll move on to questions. Murphy. Would you like to start? I'll give our colleagues seven minutes and see if I can set up the Oh, good morning. I beg your pardon. Councillor Culpepper. I'd like to recognize that Councillor Culipepper has joined us. Would you like to give a two-minute opening statement if you'd like use the time?

Thank you. Thank you, Chair. I think Rule 15 makes sense in principle and uh I don't think we need to keep filing debating the exact same thing over and over again but in practice i think there are some times when The room can be confusing, particularly when dealing with issues that are changing and things have changed outside in real time. I think something started one issue We saw that with the South Bay issue that was voted down by the council. But when things changed with the homicide, we brought it back and it was approved. And so I don't think we should automatically treat a new conversation as the same conversation because it falls under the same general subject

But I do think we can discuss it. And here's what's really been good for me and exciting to me, is the way it's been handled without any real regimented Thank you very much. Times, it can get out of hand. So I just think we need to talk through this see what makes sense But I do think there's some things we can clarify. Maybe even be more flexible in making sure Rule 15 prevents duplication without preventing this body from responding when an issue is really changing so yeah I think the clerk's office has for me we've got a great relationship.

I love when they come to me with something and ask Give me their opinion, because I'm going to have my opinion and my interpretation. So it's been good. I just think we need to nail down some protocol on how we anticipate the discussion is going to take place. Otherwise... Culpepper is good to go.

Thank you, Councilor Culpeper. Councilor Murphy, let me see if I can set this up.

I can start. Seven minutes, seven minutes. Thank you and for me Like I said in my opening statement, the filing when I looked back to the timing was based on that particular filing but has been an ongoing issue. Michelle, we have many conversations. Alex I go up to the sixth floor often and thank you to both of you for talking through I'm trying to come to some understanding on issues related You know, when it's the council meeting and something is blocked on the floor. It's not the same as a conversation beforehand but in this case I had talked to the clerk's office and I had

made substantial changes and when it was Locked on the floor, it was after because it even says right in the rule topics for which content has evolved since the previous filing or things have changed or the wording has changed to make it clearer. And in that particular case, I already felt as though the intent and my conversation with you we both agree that the outcome of those two filings were very different. One was focusing on Federal, state overall rights for women which is an important hearing. I think we could have voted and supported both easily mine was more based on you know as the chair of strong women families and communities Supporting and highlighting the work of women here in the city. Two different outcomes also, and tying it to a celebration that most of our colleagues joined in and uplifting women across the city and thanking them for their contributions

But I guess a procedural question would be, and I'll tie it to that day at that hearing. If I've already spoken to the clerk's office and changes have been made A block, which everyone has a right to do. And then what is this correct procedure? Because it's been said a couple of times you are kind of like the umpire. The final say is on the clerk. But when the chair decides to block it after conversations and I came into a meeting feeling as though the clerk's office agreed, it shouldn't be blocked. What procedures? Is it call a recess to make sure that you know it gets Communicated, do you just let it go and try to file again? Because that's what seems to happen when you're in the midst of like meeting. And the two-minute clock is going. People want to get to the next agenda item, but you're feeling as though your filing is not getting the time it needs.

But work had been done beforehand to make sure there shouldn't be any confusion. and there may be a miscommunication between the Council President and the Clerk or our communications with your office. So how can you speak to that, to make sure going forward anyone who feels like at the moment, at the hearing How do you advocate for yourself and push to make sure that it's not taken off the agenda or blocked?

Yeah, I mean, so that's a really good example of kind of like the interplay of a couple different rules. And forgive me, I don't remember every detail from the situation. But rule 15 is something that takes place before the agenda ever is published. So rule 15 is really something that lays with the clerk and the clerk's office in terms of what makes it onto the agenda under those kind of considerations try to make things not duplicative and things like that. Once something is on the agenda and comes before the body, there's kind of a second catch-all for duplicative matters which would be under rule five

So that would be something where then the council president has the discretion to rule something out of order due to it being substantially similar, duplicative or already taken up in a given municipal year. That is a separate inquiry just from an objection to taking a vote. So I think there are different distinguishers between something being on the agenda, Coming to the floor and then passing before the body. So when something is objected to for a vote on the day it's introduced, It doesn't have to be because of a rule. The objection is just the objection Rule 5 would be to rule something out of order because it's duplicative on the day of a meeting, and Rule 15 would be... Beforehand. Exactly.

So is there conversation at the pre-meeting? So there is an understanding when there's a pre-meeting on Wednesday with the council president and the clerk's office that everything that has made it through has already been checked.

Yes.

And if the president has no personal questions and feels as though that's right, of course they have an opinion. Maybe it would come up. Would it come up on Wednesday before the council meeting start? If they had any questions Could it, I guess?

Well you know most of the dockets of course they get filed up in the office before 10 so we have to review each docket and of course if i find a Duplicative Docket, all my staff does. Then we have to review it. See, we have the 10 o'clock deadline.

I mean, the Wednesday meeting that happens kind of to check in before the council meeting starts?

So all the dockets have been arranged and on the agenda so We review all the items at the pre-meeting and we go over what committee they should be assigned to and review them. If there was a Rule 15 on a particular docket, of course that would have been Ham it out and decide it before they even got onto the agenda. So to me, if we solve the issue then it's a regular docket that's on the agenda That any council colleague could lock in debate

So what is the correct procedure? Especially if after the fact, the chair agreed that it probably shouldn't have been blocked but it was and I get that when things are happening in real time. Thank you very much. that you wanted to have a vote on. You don't want a hearing, you don't wanna block, there's nothing to talk about. It's tied to a celebration like a flag raising.

So I think the two mechanisms would be if it's during the same meeting, it could be a reconsideration. If it's after a meeting, by pulling it from the green sheets at the next meeting for that vote.

Sometimes we do, you know on many occasions we've taken a recess as well to discuss certain things and if there's an issue or There's some ambiguity on a particular docket. Of course, we would take a short recess to discuss it as well.

And do you both feel as though that's reasonable if one of the councillors feels as though there isn't enough time, you know because it's quick. It's moving fast and procedures are being trumped with another one and do you feel it's reasonable to call a recess? To get clarity, to feel as though it's not being moved on and then pushed aside.

Yeah well if a councilor believes that you know they need to have a further explanation I for me my from my opinion would be take a short recess and discuss it a little bit more. And of course, like Michelle said, Councilor can move for reconsideration in the same meeting. Of course once the meeting ends then the next meeting you can have the option Pulling it from committee.

All right, thank you.

Thank you. Chair recognizes Councillor Flynn. Councillor... I'm going to do a reset. Seven minutes.

Well, thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you again to the city clerk and to the City Council Staff Director for the important work you do every day on behalf of the City the residents of Boston. I believe we have rules in place to ensure that The meetings go smoothly. They go effectively, efficiently and so that the public has a sense that this body is a serious body understands the rules and is doing the people's work, the critical work of the residents of Boston whether it's on public safety, whether it' s on public education, public health or whatever it

My main point is, as the former city council president just providing positive leadership to all city councillors regardless if you Politically agree with them or politically disagree with them. That should be irrelevant to the case in deciding how you're going to force a rule. I think as a body, we have to listen to each other. We have to respect each other, put personalities aside, put politics aside and do what's best for the residents of Boston. And that is coming together To solve problems and work with our colleagues, especially when we don't agree with each other. We can still support each other, we can still work with each

Even if we don't necessarily agree with each other, and that's what I've tried to do as the City Council President and the City Counsel here. I just want us to continue to move forward where as a body we respect each other And the public knows that we come to work every day to do the people's business. The public needs to be comfortable knowing that we show up every single day and on Wednesday, we know exactly what we're doing in doing our due diligence and providing the critical leadership for the residents of Boston. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank You Councillor Flynn. Councillor Fitzgerald?

Thank you, Madam President. Let's start with some of the basics. What is the process right now?

Okay, the process for the agenda, all the dockets are due by 10 o'clock on Monday. Although councilors have the opportunity to file things from the day after the Wednesday meeting till that month, the next Monday. Unfortunately a lot of councils don't file their dockets until 10 minutes or 15 minutes before the deadline. So if you can imagine, like the last meeting we had 50 dockets on the agenda so that's very time consuming to process each docket to make sure it is in proper form I have to read the order that is currently for the agenda. I have to compare it to the previous order filed like a few months before.

So that's time consuming and I also have to meet the requirements of the open meeting law because the agenda has to be posted at 12 noon so So we do our due diligence. We create the agenda, and I do contact a counselor personally regarding a Rule 15 issue. And either we speak on the phone or I go to the office and that's happened with most of the councilors here on the Council now have gotten phone calls from me regarding Rule 15. And a lot, 99% of the time The council is very agreeable. We change a few words here and there, we changed the title or it's pulled in its reworded and filed at the next meeting so from that perspective You know, the back and forth with the counselor is usually pretty positive.

And at that point, who would win out on a Rule 15? Is it the person who files first?

Well, when you file a document in the Granicus, it gets time stamped So whoever gets the time stamp first Then that is the docket that will be placed on the agenda.

And I imagine what we look for when looking at Rule 15 is specific, you know, all of us counselors word things a certain way to try and... Thank you for watching!

I would read both dockets. For me, I try to find similar words and similar themes. Sometimes the titles are exactly the same as well. and then I make a determination if it's a duplicate or not, but I also converse with the central staff and with council attorney for the council as well. And we all come to a determination Sometimes it's easy to determine if it's a Rule 15, but other times it isn't. So I call the counselor and we talk about it and we try to review things. And last year we had several Rule 15s on White Stadium and that those were difficult discussions to have because some, you know, that was a very hot issue back in 2025. And most of the times, the counselor would have pulled it back and reworded it and filed it at the next meeting.

I guess what's difficult to kind of separate, too, is in an issue there can be many sub-issues. And you could file something on said issue, you could A subset of that issue and a subset of the other. A larger purview of economic development in White Stadium. And so there's no need for that specific language of a separate one, even if it was timestamped prior I don't, you know.

It depends on the closing paragraph for me is what I usually focus on because there may be duplicative words at the beginning of the order but at the end, tells me exactly what the councilor's intent is most of the time. And if the intent is different than what the original one, I give the council the benefit of the doubt But in other instances, it rings the same to me and I have to conversing with the central staff and reviewing it again. And then we make a determination from there.

and how long has this current rule 15 been operating as it currently does?

Well, in 2020 the 26 rules is just the clerk makes the determination. In 24 it was The President and the Clerk. And then in 22, it was just a clerk.

Okay, so we've now reverted back to... Okay. And in going back and forth, personally I see the checks and balances of you being a fine elaborator on that.

Yeah, well, when I was with the council president, I would go down to the office and discuss it with her and review the points that I thought were similar in nature and and nine times out of ten, the president would have agreed with me. And then I would go to the councilor and discuss it further. And we will go from there.

All right. I think you've done a great job at that, Clerk. And as long as we trust the person in your position to arbitrarily and fairly make those decisions, I think it's a good check and balance on the council. and appreciate all your work and time that you put into that. And we'll try and get it a little bit in before 10 minutes to the deadline.

Thank you, Councilor.

Great, thank you. That is all, Madam President.

Chair recognizes Councilor Durkan. Councilor, you have the floor.

Thank you so much, Chair Breadon and actually Clerk I recognized that at the last I filed something pretty late and it was one of the first things on the agenda, so it was my first inkling that people were filing things pretty late. So not an easy job that you have putting an agenda together in two hours And also not an easy job that you rely on us to re-approve you for your jobs. So, you're often trying to be the most fair and do a great job in a great balancing act so Clerk thank you for all that you do and I know when it's time for you to retire we're gonna have to give you so many flowers because we've put you through a lot the past few years. So I definitely think there's a difference between Rule 15 and Rule 33. So, I just wanted to ask the question about obviously I think in the specific

I objected to a filing on the basis of rule 15 but rule 33 is actually the rule that allows for and a City Councilor to object to a filing. Can you speak a little more to that, to Rule 33? Rule 33 is where it is derived that city councillors can object on the first day. Like, you know, on the

One step back regarding the Rule 15. All of the Rule15 issues take place before the agenda is even published, so when we come to our meeting and the agenda is all there and ready to go. And if a docket doesn't get unanimous consent to pass, and then there's an objection of course it goes to committee.

So that- Like there were two objections in the last meeting?

Yes. Whatever happens in the meeting, I think it doesn't really reflect back to Rule 15 because that was already, you know, the issue was reviewed prior to the meeting.

So it's kind of, it's improper taking the Women's History Month as the anecdote here. It's improper to cite Rule 15 because Rule 15, the powers with the clerk where Rule 33, the powers with the council. Okay. And I guess... I know when I want to pass something the same day, there's a number of people I usually need to talk to to ensure that it's not going to be blocked. Otherwise, I might be surprised on the day I know that if I want to bring something to the floor on the same day for passage, and many more. Often I need to check with my colleagues to make sure that they're okay with suspension in passage on the day,

You know, someone might want a hearing for a specific docket. They might want more information. At least for me, for Rule 15, given everything that you've already spoken to and given the verbiage, and given that the City Council unanimously approved the rules I don't have any questions about Rule 15 in particular. I will say that Now having this hearing and hearing from my colleagues on this issue, I think it's improper to cite Rule 15 as a reason that you're objecting to a docket. So given that that gives power to the clerk and not to the council. Um... I'll say that I haven't always been completely satisfied with Rule 15, particularly when it comes to my committee because often there are duplicative dockets that I end up combining to have one hearing on the subject McFarland, and so forth.

It's the same stakeholders that are interested in the multiple subject matter. I think my charge for our colleagues is if you jointly care I think it actually creates for a more robust hearing when especially just with planning, development and transportation. All of the people who care about a specific subject matter are working on the same docket and working on Colleagues were willing to talk to each other, a lot of these issues would not exist because we'd know baseline what our colleagues were working on. And there have been times where I call it being scooped. You get scooped on an issue, you care deeply about it, you may have already written the filing, it might be sitting in your drive and it gets filed before.

One of those examples was single stair reform my and many more. My office had been part of a statewide working group for literally six months, we were joining and the Council President and her team had been working on the same thing. She filed it, and I went directly to her office and said you know Hey, I'd really love to be on this. I've actually been working on this statewide. So that's the kind of collaboration that should exist in the council and doesn't always exist in a council and I think it makes it harder to collaborate with colleagues when they are calling you things in the news. And I think that's something we need to think about is If we're going to hurl things at people in the news and then not respond to their emails, I think that is really important that we have that level of collaboration where if we ask to meet They'll meet with us.

And I think that, to be honest, like, that's where all this is coming from. We wouldn't need to have an entire hearing on rules if we just talked to each other and had more collaboration. Thank you.

Thank You, Councillor Durkan The Chair recognizes Councilor Weber. Councilor, you have the floor.

Thank you for the Clerk. So when it says subtopic, you can file something on a subtopic. How do you define subtopic or what do you look at? Is that just like you know and you see it?

Well, I would read it over and it depends on what the outcome is of that order in the summary of the last paragraph. That certainly determines for me If it would be a duplicate docket or not. And even if there was like White Stadium is a good issue because that, there was a lot of different orders filed for White Stadium on many different Thank you for watching. because I had to determine what the outcome of that particular order, what the intention of it is. So nine times out of ten we would determine that it is a separate distinct and it doesn't really conflict with the others even though it seemed duplicate to be a duplicate but the outcome is different.

That would be probably the best example I could give in terms of a subtopic on an order. Again, we review it with Michelle and with the council's central staff Come to a consensus and we go from there.

So I guess, is it fair to say you're trying to get the filing onto the agenda? Like if you said nine times out of 10, you can find a subtopic Just for you individually, are you just looking at this and calling balls and strikes on that? Or are you trying to find a way to get the filing not Not have to invoke Rule 15.

Well, when we get all the dockets by 10 o'clock and it's like a race for 12 because of the open meeting law, we have to post everything at 12 o' clock so And in 2026, I've had 16 Rule 15 items. So those they take up a lot of time to review, to read the order sometimes an order is like one page Other orders are like three or four pages, so I have to read that current order then review the previous one. That's a duplicate. So that involves a lot of time and for me I have abide by the open meeting law Call the counselor directly or I come down to the office. I review everything We talk with the central staff and we try to come to a decision To see if it is truly a duplicate order and 9 times out of 10, we do that pretty quickly.

And then if it isn't, then it will go on to the agenda and be part of the meeting at the next meeting.

And I guess with all of your experience with this rule, is there any additional guidance or anything in the rule that you I think the council could help you out on with the language and the rule, or do you feel like this works?

Well, I think for me and my staff especially, there's a race for 12 noon. And my hope is that the councilors could submit items sooner than 10 minutes before 10 o'clock. And we have discussed the possibility of changing that, but you know, that's still like an idea that we could introduce. The dockets, the filing of dockets actually has increased a great deal in the last few years. Like in 2025 there were 2,114 dockets filed where in 2019 it was 1,700. So, so far in 2026 we've had 1,588 dockets filed. So each meeting that we have there's a great amount of dockets on there and those Thank you very much.

Contact the counselor or come down and talk to the counselor. So all that takes time, and then hopefully by... There was one instance where we posted the agenda at like 12.01. because we had to review certain things on that particular order with the councilor. So, you know, we try to do our due diligence and I try to process everything as quickly as I can to meet the open meeting deadline.

Okay, so yeah I'm writing down make sure everything filed at least 11 minutes before the deadline. So you won't blame me but So it sounds like that's an issue and the number of filings makes it stressful to get through everything. But in terms of the rule itself, when you're applying Rule 15 Is there something in there that you keep going, I wish they had not done that or clarified something?

The language for Rule 15 has pretty much been consistent for the last few years. I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is to review a doc as making the determination, working with the counselor. The aspect of all this is we have the green sheet, so all the councilors have that information at the tip of their hands before they file any dockets. They could review the green sheets and say oh there's a similar sounding Dockett on the green sheets already. So that could be a step that a councilor could take to avoid any Rule 15 issues. Okay, and...

Yeah, sorry. I just because we did go back to kind of review the history of Rule 15 before this hearing and just wanted to share because it's interesting also but you know Rule 15 comes up for the first time in our council rules in like the 1980s and then it was expanded slightly in the early 90s. We're making an assumption because there were duplicate matters in the previous year that, you know, the team was able to go back And then it remained largely unchanged until the past few terms when it became something that was coming up in conversations with the clerk, with myself and at our rules committee meetings. to review the rules. So, the current iteration of Rule 15 tried to address some of the concerns that people had The end of 2025 at the last rules meeting.

So, at that last rules' meeting people talked about how things should be allowed if they do evolve or subtopics should be evolved or subtopic should be loud. All of that language was added in as a response to what councilors had indicated they were hoping to see change about that rule from 2025 to 2026. So I think You can kind of see us continuing to struggle about how to implement that because we add more language, but it's not necessarily more clear.

Okay, thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Thank You. Chair recognizes Councilor Culpepper. Councilor, you have the floor.

Thank Man President. Thank Mr. Clerk and Attorney Michelle. Is there any written objective standard that you use when you begin to review two dockets that have been filed that seem like they're similar?

I just, whatever is in the order, I read the previous order that seems to be the duplicate and I just make a determination. If I see or if I read enough Duplication in the wording and the intent and the theme of the order, that's how I determine if it's a duplicate or not.

So there's no written objective criteria?

No.

I think, I would just say beyond what's in the rule. So the difference for this year is that we've... The clerk or the rule has changed to focus more on whether something would result in the same kind of hearing. So I think that's been the kind of like

I think what I'm probably more concerned about is when there's a disagreement with the clerk, then what happens? And I'm wondering whether the council should have some appeal mechanism, whether it's to the president or whether To the council or another process where The counselor that has a disagreement can appeal to Or whether there's There should be a mechanism for reconsideration just to give the counselors an opportunity to state their case in case they disagree with the final decision.

And you know, because it's going to happen. There's going be situations where a counselor is going to say, should we have some kind of appeal mechanism in that case? Whether it's to the president or whether it's to the president, to bring to the council itself so the council rules on it. Because I can't see where there may be situations in the future where council will disagree and get dug in. Not me, no. But I think we should think about that, Mr. Clerk. Just so it... Relieves you of always having to be the final arbiter and to give a counselor some option in case they either want Thank you very much.

Because I think in some of these Rule 15 matters, they come up so quickly when someone files something. You look at it and say, oh my God, we've got something filed already. It's quarter to 12. So you're trying to review it, come to the president, then get to the counselor and There's probably not enough time in some situations, so I'm wondering if we should think about some kind of appeal procedure where if a council disagrees with... Not me now.

Well, there have been occasions when at one particular meeting we've had three Rule 15 items. and that's where my opinion is that there's not enough time for me to review all those three if I'm going to post the agenda at 12 noon. And reviewing a Rule 15 item becomes tedious because you have to read the current one, you have the previous one. You have to contact the councilor I've been upstairs for 20 years and my experience has been Most of the councilors that I've dealt with over the years have been very agreeable to my observation and opinion on what a duplication is. But there have been occasions when, yes, you're right. A counselor digs in and says no it's not the same.

The outcome of this is going to be different, and I don't agree with you. But there was, I think one occasion Many years ago that did happen. I was the assistant clerk back then, but I think we allowed something to go on the agenda and then whatever Council wanted to do with that item, then that would be voted on during the meeting.

So I think that goes back to the interplay with Rule 5. My understanding is that If that disagreement does happen, you would tend to allow the filing to move forward. And then once it's on the agenda, if the president or another counselor feels that it is duplicative and should have been Rule 15ed They would make a case under Rule 5 because Rule 5 is within the council to rule it out of order for those same reasons.

Was that something that came to the full council?

So the way Rule 5 works is that it's technically the president who rules it out of order, but it's subject to appeal. So it would be up for a vote.

Okay. But it has to come to the president by way of the clerk bringing it to the President? or just hit the floor because it was on their agenda. And what I'm saying is maybe there's something where it doesn't, Go to the floor at that point without using rule five, whether we could seriously think about having some kind of procedure. Without using rule 5 where if someone Really dug in with the clerk. It could then go to the president or to the body. I just think there has to be some kind of appeal mechanism that allow that counselor to take their argument or their position that differs with the clerk's to the president or the council somehow.

I just think that's something we might want to think about and save you a little aggravation or frustration.

Well, usually if that Thank you very much. And if his colleagues agree with that, then it could be passed or referred to committee. It can be objected to but that would be on the floor of the meeting and the council meeting

Can we put that in writing or some way formalize that so the counselors will know that's a protocol procedure that could be used in the future? We can create something. Yes. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate how, and I can only talk about the eight months that I've been here. How we've had real good discussions sometimes. Sometimes intense discussions. With Megan, and Megan's not here. She's been very helpful. All of you have been very helpful. And I think the relationship lends itself to even if there is a procedure It will still be as smooth as things happen. And just appreciate working with you. I think probably what happens is when you do that prayer,

I've been doing a lot of praise. Well, thank you, Councilor. Being here in the clerk's office for 20 years, I have a very unique perspective on what The responsibilities are in doing the agendas and reviewing the dockets. But I think with what you just said, I agree with that because that will release Any tensions between our offices? You know, there's 13 counselors. I have 13 bosses so over the years and I come to this job with an open mind every single day Because at the end of the day, like Councilor Flynn said, we're here to move the people's business forward and work for the citizens of Boston. And for me, it doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum a counselor is.

For me, it's reading the order, determining if it's a duplicate, determining what the intended outcome of the order is. So I've always taken that open mind approach and will continue to do that.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor Culpepper. I know that we changed the rules back to having you be the sole arbiter when we did the changes for 2026-27 council session We were phrased for clarity and to help specify the intent of the rule, and to clarify that you were the decision maker. And it also attempted to clarify what should and should not be considered duplicative. I think also the decision that we made as a body when we changed the rules at the beginning of the year, adding the sentence prescribing that when Rule 15 should not be invoked, filings whose content is on a different sub-topic or a subtopic not specified or that should not have

Reasonably been expected to be covered by the previous filing, or filings on topics for which content has evolved since the previous file because things change in the world. So long as the hearing or debate on the new filing would not result in the same hearing or same debate that would otherwise have been under the previous filing. The sole purpose is to try and keep it streamlined, that we're not having duplicative hearings. So a hearing order for an update on a topic matter or a matter that has already had a hearing is now no longer considered duplicate if the landscape was changed and there's a timely reason to have an update on that topic. So I think those are good improvements, In terms of, are there other categories of filings? We have hearing orders. We have resolutions.

Are there categories where the Rule 15 should be applied differently? There's a different weight to it, if it's a hearing versus a resolution or whatever.

I've always treated them both the same in terms of reading them and determining if they're duplicative or not. If enough words come out that are the same or similar, and the outcome is the same then I would consider that a duplicate, but however there could be instances where there are situations where it differs a bit and the outcome is different. So if it's an order or if it was a resolution If it's an order for one issue and the resolution is on the same issue, then those are two different things. One's in order, one's a resolution so I wouldn't rule 15 those.

Okay thank you Does the current language give you enough clarity and guidance to make consistent determinations? I think what I'm hearing from you is the biggest factor is actually the time that you're allowed to review your prop.

The timing is the issue for me, and if I... I have to go through these things quickly and sometimes by doing that, you know, I could miss the interpretation by doing it quickly. of a particular order. But again, I have to follow the open meeting law and I have post everything by 12 so when everything gets posted The amount of filings has significantly increased in the last couple of years, so that makes our jobs a little bit more difficult and tedious and processing everything. But I mean we get it done posted at 12 noon. Like I said, there was a meeting where I had like three or four rule 15 possible rule 15 items so I have to review each one and then contact the counselor for each order. So we try to do that as quickly as possible.

You don't have a lot of time for a turnaround? No.

The other question I had is, and this is generally in the rules, it used to be that you had to make your filings on Friday afternoon. The deadline for filings was Friday afternoon, and now we've... That was changed a while ago.

Is it? I don't even remember if we ever had done that. But I have suggested that we do that in a memo that I sent out last year regarding filings because a lot of them, like I said, a lot counsel has filed everything at quarter to 10 on Monday morning. I did have made the suggestion that we could, Councilors could file things starting at four o'clock on Friday. During COVID, yeah, we did that during COVID. But if we If Council has filed things on Friday, at least we have some time in the Monday morning. Not starting at 10 but when staff gets in at 830 they Thank you for joining us.

I know my time, I'm just watching it. But Councilor Murphy? I'm going to give you another four minutes.

Thank you. My colleagues who were here and who stayed, I don't think it's productive if we make accusations and walk away especially because these are Filings we're referring to that were about women's history and I don't think there ever can be too many filings where we're advocating and uplifting women especially in 2026. I do just want to be clear and then ask for your opinion again even though I know I got it way back in February when you made a call to me. So, I filed a resolution recognizing March as Women's History Month and as the Chair of Strong Women Families and community was also tying it into a celebration we were going to have. And my title was Resolution Recognizing March as Women's History Month, talked about the contributions women have made in the city of Boston And while meaningful progress has been made, blah, blah. We should continue to support and advocate

and my now there be for it, which is what you say you go to that clause said. That the Boston City Council hereby recognize March as Women's History Month in honors the contributions leadership and achievements of women in Boston. The other hearing that was filed, which I was supporting and signing on and thought both should be brought forward had a different focus. which I know when we talked you agreed is why you kept both on, a resolution recognizing women's history and reaffirming Boston's commitment to women's rights. One of the whereases was focusing on recent federal actions and judicial decisions have weakened protections related to reproductive health care, workplace rights, civil rights enforcement in gender based discrimination. Placing women's health, autonomy and safety at risk. These federal rollbacks disproportionately harm women of color low-income women immigrant women LGBTQ plus women and women with disabilities compounding existing inequities within

Our communities all agree with that. This moment demands renewed local leadership to affirm that women's rights are human rights and that we as a city will remain strong to defend the dignity and equity, and that the Boston City Council hereby recognizes March as Women's History Month and reaffirms Boston's commitment to advancing gender equity in protecting Women's rights, particularly at a time when federal actions threaten longstanding civil and human rights protection at the federal level. Do you still agree? And I know I spoke to you, Michelle, about this. And as panelists, I would like your opinion now. Do you agree that those are two separate resolutions stayed on the agenda and voted both at that hearing based on their content after kind of re-going through what would constitute and it wasn't pulled, you kept it on because you agreed that. Do you still agree?

Well when the Rule 15 issue I contacted you But you did change the language. So for me, I reread it afterwards and determined that it wasn't An exact duplicate.

And just to be clear to the public too, when we change the language it's before anyone even sees it and my colleagues either so no one had seen the original even though the original was pretty similar and I did think that that one which is a strong Important Resolution, and I was wholeheartedly supporting that one also. That I did make a few tweaks just to be very clear but mine was in no way referencing federal or other issues at the time either. Just to be safe.

Like you said, working collegiately together to just make sure there was no... Well this is another example of calling the counselor and describing what the duplication is and then the counselor agreed to edit her original version. So once that happens and the determination of the order is different- Right, but then at the meeting it was them

Yeah. So, and I also remember going to you Michelle it was upsetting after lots of other things like blocking late files which i do think i need a few more seconds to address that because If we do have a deadline of Friday at 4, so much does happen on Friday night, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I know I've spoken at length with you about that, Michelle. That yes, we should get in the habit of things that can get in as early as they can, we But if we're putting a Friday deadline, then there will be more late files because lots of important things do come up over the weekend that will need to be and many more. At that meeting also, when we talk about what are our supports Council attorneys were not in the chamber. Do you remember that conversation, Michelle?

And when I asked for a recess it was denied then it was pushed and then colleagues voted to just shoot it down. Well, if we're not referring to the clerk and using the rule that says he has the final power. And I didn't agree with the president. I didn' have access to what I agreed. If you could just Speak through what the council attorney during the council meetings support and role is just so that we're clear on what that is for us.

No, definitely. And you know I did, you know We've talked about this multiple times, and I appreciate you having brought that to me. And I hope it's noticeable that we have been making sure to have more coverage in the chamber during meetings for that exact reason so that if counselors have a question During the meeting that's on procedure or anything else it doesn't necessarily have to be something that they have to bring up as a point of order, point of information or you know a question that they raise to the president or to the clerk through Thank you. My time is up again, but I'll have to go on. Thank you

Murphy. Sorry, you? He's Flynn.

We're both Irish.

At least I'm not calling Mary. Councilor Flynn, off you go.

Thank you Madam Chair. Again, I want to say thank you to Alex and to Michelle. I had an opportunity to work with both for almost nine years and both outstanding and dedicated city employees. What I wanted to highlight, I referenced it somewhat in my comments and questioning. I do think we are able to move forward on this issue and other issues. Respecting each other and listening to each other. And understanding each other or compromising, especially when you disagree with the person on policy I think that's where we have to be more understanding, more considerate, more compassionate is try to be

A better colleague. I think if we're a better colleague, we can make significant progress in rules and I think at times without being negative because I don't want to be negative during this meeting But I do think if we work together and respect each other, we can accomplish a lot. We can follow the rules, we could do the people's work but even when we disagree and we respect each other, we still can get a lot of work done. And that's really my point as it relates to the City Council rules is ensuring that city councilors treat each other cordially Thank you very much. I hope we can all respectfully understand each other and sometimes including myself withholding comments about

The criticism doesn't help the body and it doesn't

Thank you, Madam Chair. No, I don't have any further questions. Thank you so much and again thank you to the staff.

Councilor Weber?

Thank you very much. I'm just happy to attend and hear what my colleagues have to say Thank you for the panel for their thoughtful answers. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. Councillor Culpepper?

Yeah I did have an additional question regarding the decision and so When you make a decision, Mr. Clerk, is there somewhere where you record that decision or document that decision just in case it's something that comes up in the future?

Well... Actually, I do. I created a folder this year for 2026 because we've had 16 Rule 15 items so now they keep the dockets in this folder too to go back and review them if I need them in the future.

And did you document the reason why or provide an explanation in writing so if you need to go You made a certain decision.

We keep copies of each docket, and I do make little notes saying why I thought it was a duplicate. and then I just put them in these five, in this folder and I keep them for reference.

Good because I think that's important like the congressional record you can go back to the Congressional Record and look back 50 years of why a congress I just think it's helpful in the future especially when you have similar dockets that may come up in the and provide that to the council of what you did in the past. You're setting precedent, Mr. Clerk.

Yes we are.

Thank you.

I think one of the issues that you mentioned is if you're faced with a Rule 15 docket, You often approach the sponsor and you ask them to give them the opportunity. The member is offered an opportunity to make an amendment to the docket so that it doesn't Triggerer, Rule 15. And you said we've had 16 Rule 15 issues this year so far, so that's two by two a month, like averaging but two a How many of those were successfully resolved by making an amendment or the person withdrew the docket?

A majority of them, they were amended. The language was changed to make it not to be a duplicate. There were a few occasions where the docket was withdrawn and the councilor would contact of the original, the first filing to become a sponsor to that.

And I know why myself was 15. No, I had a docket and my colleague had She came in five minutes after I did with a very similar docket. We amended the language and we did a joint filing in that case. So there are remedies available to colleagues if we work collaboratively together to address this.

And all of this happens before we even publish the agenda?

Yeah, I really want to thank you for your diligence. I appreciate it. I have a lot of concern about the fact that you are faced with a lot dockets sometimes we have a huge number of dockets and you have to review and put into the system between 10 and 12 on Monday. I think one thing that I will I ask my colleagues to consider is that if there are dockets that are ready to go on Thursday or Friday, then to at least send them over to your office so that your staff can start Reviewing and entering those dockets at 8.30 on a Monday I think if you get all of our dockets At quarter of 10 On a Monday And expect everything to be done for 12 is an unreasonable expectation.

So I think it's on us as councillors and to be respectful of your office, if we have dockets ready to go then let's get them going I know we did that during COVID and that was an extraordinary moment in time. And also just given the sheer number of dockets, like as you mentioned, we are at 1,588 dockets so far This year, and we're only in August. We've still got three full months to go, and it's a huge amount of work for your office, and I appreciate that. Murphy. I thank you both for your incredible work.

Talking through and answering some questions. I think clarity is always important. I have always been a rule follower, maybe to a fault so I do think following the rules are important but As important, I think it has to be consistent and people have to feel as though the rules are being applied consistently across the board despite personalities or any other things. So that is many times the concerns I've had right? Thank you. need to work together, but what you said proves that we already are because most of these Rule 15 cases that you see are fixed before they ever make it to the agenda. The call is what fixes it, and it's what I thought fixed mine in my case

and many times I've signed on with other colleagues also like, hey we're both filing something let's work together. All of that is happening behind the scenes so that number is high and thank you for the work you do in your office to catch it But I do want to be clear to the public and the body that nine times, if not more out of ten we are addressing it and fixing it before it ever comes to the floor. We are working together to make sure that we're not just bickering and for me at least I can say, I'm not filing things just to file them. To me they're very important issues that need to be addressed So looking forward to hopefully continuing to get consistency across the board and thank you for being available to make some clarifications today. Thank you. Councilor Flynn?

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the City Clerk. Thanking to the city council staff director for the important work you were doing for the City Council and for the residents of Boston Let's continue as a body to work together, respect each other. Communicate effectively with each other and do the work of the people that's critical especially during these challenging times We all know that Boston works best when we work together.

Sure. Thank you very much. I mean, I feel like again thank you to the panelists and I think Issues around Rule 15 and issues that we talked about today, I think it's more indicative of issues on the council with councillors effectively working together. So I agree with my colleagues there. This highlights more of that issue than any issues with the clerk's office or Council, or even the language of the rule. So again I hope we use this as a way to work better together so thank you to just echo Councillor Flynn's sentiment.

Thank you.

Thank You. Councillor Culpepper?

Sometimes that organization, we're better together. Just a couple of comments and you may want to respond or may not. We try and have all of our filings We may not file them Friday. My question is, would you rather Us file on Friday, and if Monday morning I'll review them again Monday morning. And if we have amendments would you prefer that we pull that and file the amendment, file the change? Or just leave it there and amend it. What's your preference?

Well, you know if you file something on Friday then you want to change it on Monday that creates more work too for us but I mean, it can be done.

So would you rather we just wait and file an amendment?

Wait until you have the final version.

Okay.

And then we can review it and then... Hopefully you'll be fine. And if you want to substitute, of course, you can do that during the meeting as well.

Right. And where we can, we'll try and get them into it by Friday because usually they're ready by Friday. But, you know, that weekend... Going through the weekend thinking about that file and waking up Monday morning. Thank you, Mr. Clerk.

Thank You, Councilor Culpepper I want to thank you both for being here today. I think this has been a very valuable and informative conversation. I want my colleagues for participating in the conversation. Our goal as a body, Staff and your clerk's offices to have an efficient, well-run council. I appreciate all the great work you do. I think we can make some tweaks and encourage people to file. If there's something ready to go, and it's in good shape, and doesn't need changing, send it to your office in a timely way so that it doesn't get into the bottleneck on Monday mornings and I just want to thank you for your professionalism, and your daily commitment to helping us do our work for the people of Boston every day. And thanks to my colleagues.

He might not realize it, but I take down notes of your prayers so that I take them with me when I leave here this council. So when I look at some of my files I've got certain portions of your prayers in those files, so thank you for those prayers.

That's the other role of the clerk is to stand in for clergy when we don't have clergy and to set the... To set a peaceful and collaborative tone at the beginning of a meeting, so I thank you for that as well.

Madam President, if he uses that in his sermons is that plagiarism? Is that where you get your inspiration? Credit.

I'll give him credit on Sunday morning.

Thank you, everyone. This hearing on Docket 1475 is adjourned.