Needham Select Board, 9/8/26

Thank you.

Good evening and welcome to the Select Board Meeting for Tuesday, September 8th. This meeting is being broadcast by the Needham Channel This YouTube channel, the Needham Observer I believe is recording and via Zoom it will be available for publication and later viewing. so accordance with the open meeting law if anyone else in the room or online wishes to record the meeting they're required to notify the chair first so that we can inform everyone else if there's anyone else who would like to record the meeting please let me know now thank you OK. We're going to get started tonight with public comment. We have one comment that we know about, so I will ask for Louise Miller to join us I'll just remind you to state your name and your address.

Louise Miller, 5 North Hill Avenue. And I am here to make a public comment about the Pollard project. I don't remember exactly When I came to talk to this board about the financing of the Pollard project, but I'm here to urge you again to look at the options that are available within the towns financing policies to reduce The burden on the taxpayers, both residential and commercial in Needham of the Pollard override. There is a policy in Needham that allows for us to designate new growth from projects and designate those to pay for debt service for capital projects.

I would urge you to look at what projects are coming down the pipeline, to identify projects that would be good candidates. to have the new growth that would be added to our tax base instead of being added Be designated for the Pollard project. I think it's particularly important because, for two reasons. One is a lot of residents in the last year had their properties revalued and experienced a very high tax increase just this past year. trying to moderate any potential taxes to residents obviously would be desirable. We also do the maximum tax shift with commercial properties and so commercials, real estate pays 20 some odd dollars per thousand which is almost twice what residents pay.

So as people are using the calculator that was placed online, and thank you for doing that. The commercial is feeling also the burden of any potential override should that override pass. and I think we just need to be aware that we want to encourage commercial activity. We want economic vitality, and for that we really ought to be looking at ways that we can reduce the impact of this Pollard, proposed Pollard override. So that is my statement to you today. Thank you Louise. All right. If you have any questions let me know like last time. Happy to discuss further.

okay the next item on our agenda is the 2026 hispanic heritage month proclamation and for that we will turn to our vice chair certainly

Whereas National Hispanic Heritage Month, known as Mes Nacional de Herencia Hispana which was first celebrated in 1968 extends from September 15th through October 15th each year. And whereas the month is significant as it covers the anniversaries of independence for Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico and Chile. and whereas the rich heritage, arts, histories, food, music and traditions of all Latin American nations span an array of many distinct cultures And whereas this month celebrates, honors and pays tribute to all for their many contributions to our town and to our society. Now therefore be it resolved that September 15th through October 15, 2026 be declared National Hispanic Heritage Month in the Town of Needham. and Needham Select Board encourages all residents to observe this occasion as an opportunity for education and celebration.

Thank you.

Madam Chair, I would move that the board vote to approve and sign the 2026 Hispanic Heritage Month Proclamation.

Second. All right. Any discussion? All those in favor? Aye. Those opposed? Motion passes. Wonderful.

right now. We just got a message from the chair that says there's public hearings.

Yeah, sure. Excellent idea. So we will do that. When Louise was speaking I was hearing a little reverb. Alright, so we'll just recess while we sort our audio. Okay, we're going to get back to work here. Thanks to everyone on the Needham channel and all of the people who contributed to sorting that out. We are going to move on to our public hearing, which is a grant of location for 5 Grant Street. And we have already been joined by Joanne Callender, our Eversource representative

Good evening.

Hi, Joanne. Good, we can hear you. All right, wonderful. So Joanne, can you give us the information? Tell us about this one? Sure.

Sure. Eversource is seeking a grand location to install approximately 43 feet of conduit into Grant Street, and that is to upgrade the service at 5 Grant Street from overhead to underground Crete.

Thank you. Madam Town Manager, is everything in order? It is.

OK. And Madam Chair, just the fact sheet says Wellesley Avenue when it should be Grant Street. I don't think that affects anything.

you're right it does thank you for catching that I think as long as the motion is correct which i would happy to make that the select vote to approve and sign a petition from Eversource Energy to install approximately 43 feet of conduit in Grant

excellent thank you for that motion bill uh this is also a public hearing so i'm going to ask if there's anyone in the room who is here to comment on this matter and if there's anyone on Zoom who is here to comment, okay great. Then there is a motion on the floor do we have a second? Second. All right, and do my colleagues have any questions? No. OK. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Are those opposed? OK, the motion passes. Thank you Joanne that was really fast. Have a good evening. Take it easy. Okay, we're gonna move on now to our next public hearing. This is an application for a transfer of an all-alcohol license from Lo & Jang Corporation doing business as Mandarin Cuisine. So please come on up and have a seat, and maybe we can just start with some introductions.

My name is Chris Coleman. I'm the attorney for the applicant.

Hi, that's nice to meet you.

This is Yu Chan also known as Ryan.

Thank you, hi.

and Jing Chen is to my left. Hi, nice to meet you. She's the sole shareholder.

Wonderful, okay. So tell us what the story is?

This is the location of Old Mandarin Cuisine. I think you're probably all familiar with that location. It's going to undergo a whole rehab, it's an older building and operated by this same owner for 37 years. Very little changes along the way, so they're going to bring that up to snuff. The location is about 4,000 square feet proposed 90 seats with occupancy of 105 82 of those seats from the dining room 8 will be in the bar area The floor plan was provided with the application. The cuisine is Asian cuisine, it's got chicken, seafood and meat dishes along with dim sum and noodle and rice dishes. The proposed hours are Monday through Saturday, 11 a.m. to 12 a. m., and on Sunday, 11a. m. to 11 p. m.. Proposed manager Mr. Chen, he has good restaurant and alcohol experience

from 2015 to 2022 is assistant manager at Sewa Steakhouse that was in Shrewsbury. Actually, he still works there as a part-time fill-in manager as well but primarily from 2022 until now He's an assistant manager at Masaka in Marlborough. He's a US citizen and he plans on being at the restaurant over 40 hours a week He does not have his TIPS training yet, although he looks like he's going to have plenty of time to do that because this renovation is gonna take about eight to 10 months. There's a couple people at the restaurant that are gonna receive training so they're gonna have come in on site and do all the training together, in person. The renovations as I said are extensive they should be about eight to ten months After that, we're providing after the construction is done. The liquor license liability certificates, workman's comp certificates

the business certificates, workman's compensation certificate as well as the certificate of occupancy and certificate of inspection. I'd be happy to answer any questions that you might have

Sure. Can you talk a little bit about the hours? You're going to be open later than most establishments in Needham. closing at 12. Have you had a track record of, has this restaurant seen business at that hour?

This particular restaurant it's been I don't think aggressively marketed over the last year, two or three based on the age of the proprietor. but this is consistent with some of the other restaurants they have. Miss Chen also has a restaurant interest in a couple of other restaurants and that's their opening and closing hours.

I'll open it up to questions.

OK, just timeline this. So you're going eight to 10 months? Correct. OK so liquor license is kicking in plans.

The liquor license will not be used and that will be picked up here until after the construction is done and certificates are delivered. Okay. Then the license will be pick up.

All right. And you're receiving a loan for $450,000? Is that true? From your brother, right? Yes. Okay. Who has no stake in this restaurant, right. Yeah. All right, and the manager of record will be? Yu Chen. OK. I'm so sorry. No, I'm sorry. It's a tough job. You're going to be the manager of record. It is a tough job. OK, and you will be personally liable for patrons who overindulge. And you're in the hot seat. Yes. The time being takes us very seriously. compliance checks, and we do this aggressively. So please be mindful, be careful of the tips.

Training matters according to- Yes, and make sure everybody is fine for not overdrinking especially for that.

and I would just say you know you are located near to a hotel that often hosts events so we would want to just especially in the Late evening, you'd want to make sure that you were very careful during the overflow from those events. The TIPS training is going to happen closer to your opening?

It's more about one of the areas when the construction is enclosed and comfortable climate-wise for them to come in and do it.

So just have a location to do it Okay, we just want to make sure that everyone has got it in their recent memory no license until the certificate delivered yeah okay all right um

I just wanted to piggyback a little on being closed out of the hotel because there's a lot of athletic events in the area and there may be younger people there. So we really are very strict about 21 is 21 and making sure that, you know, we don't serve anybody underage. So we want to make sure – never mind we don�t want anyone over-served. We don't want anyone served who's underage

Thank you. OK, in that case I'd welcome a motion. It's a public hearing. No? I got it. It was close. I'll give you that. Is there anyone in the room who is here to speak on this subject? Is there anyone online?

Okay.

In that case, I would welcome a motion. Madam Chair. I think Bill you already No I did not on this one.

I didn't want to jump the gun again.

Madam Chair, I move to approve the Section 12 Restaurant All Alcohol Beverages License Transfer Application submitted by Lowe & Jang Corporation doing business as Mandarin Cuisine including the appointment of Yu Chen as Manager of Record, and if so approved forward the application to the ABCC for review and final approval. Second.

All right. All those in favor, say aye. Aye. Okay. Congratulations.

Good luck. Good to see you all there. Thank you.

The third in our line of public hearings. We're going to move to the Tree Protection and Preservation By-law, and our presenter will be Gabby Kuehnan, our sustainability manager. Thank you. Gabby was the staff liaison for this committee, and amazing work. So hi again. Nice to see you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. All right, so I'm just going to provide a very brief overview of the proposed protection and preservation by-law regulations for folks. Thank you, Miles. Next slide, please. Thank you. So why are we discussing a draft tree protection and preservation bylaw and regulations? Well because of the value that trees provide to Needham so there's wide variety of values that we could speak about, but a few to emphasize. Mature trees help reduce stormwater-related flooding and also help to mitigate extreme heat. They also support neighborhood character, help support property values as well Folks may already be aware that public trees are regulated by the town under Chapter 87, but Needham does not regulate private trees. Not even during construction.

a GIS assessment of tree canopy loss for our region identified that Needham loses an average of about 14 football fields of tree canopies each year. Next slide, please.

Gabby, just to clarify, Chapter 87 is for public shade trees?

Yes, just for public shades trees. That's correct, not public as a whole. Thank you. So what does the proposed bylaw focus on? The bylaw focuses on trees on private property and again is triggered only by major construction. So this would be triggered if a demolition permit, new construction addition alteration or other local permit that increase impervious surface cover by 25% or more. So if you're not doing one of those construction related activities, this would not apply to you. The By-Law also applies only to trees that are six inches or greater diameter at breast height and are located within the setback areas of a property. The bylaw is designed to be flexible, it does not ban removal, but rather provides three different pathways for mitigation if trees are removed. So that would be

preserving the trees, removing and replacing with new trees or removing and paying into a tree replacement revolving fund for town tree planting. And I'll touch a little bit more on that in the next couple of slides. Thanks Maya. Just a couple of key terms that we're going to talk a little bit more about later. The tree bylaw only applies to protected trees, so when we say protected tree, we mean a tree again, six inches DBH or greater within the tree yard. What's the treeyard? Tree yard is the unbuildable area on the lot that's within the zoning setbacks Overstory trees, we're going to talk about these a little bit more later as well. But those are trees that grow to 40 plus feet at maturity And then finally, DBH or diameter at breast height. That's the trunk diameter that's measured at four and a half feet above the ground.

so what is not covered in this bylaw again the bylaw is really targeting more development related activities it's not focused on homeowners who are are trying to maintain safety for their property. So the bylaw does not cover trees that are identified as dangerous or hazardous, trees that a wetlands jurisdiction area. Those fall under conservation commission, they have their own tree regulations. Town owned public shade trees again those are under chapter 87 and fall under the purview of the town's tree warden Trees that are removed for an emergency situation or trees that are subject to a waiver per the bylaw. So again, there's three mitigation options the bylaws designed to be flexible. So folks can do a combination of all three or two or just choose one.

The first option is preserving trees so keep those existing trees on site. The second option is to replace, so remove existing trees and either plant new trees onsite or an abutting property with the approval of that owner and then finally a payment option. So remove the existing trees, and then contribute into the tree replacement revolving fund for the town. Thank you. So should you choose the mitigation fee option, that third option we just mentioned? the proposal is to pay into a fund. Again, if that's it for placement or preservation is not possible and their rate would be at $300 per DVH inch removed of trees So those funds would go into the Town Tree Replacement Revolving Fund for town tree planting. And again, this is a mitigation option that's designed to account for those lost services that are provided by those trees

So think environmental values, neighborhood values, things like that. Next slide, please. Thanks, Miles. So replacement, so if you choose the replacement pathway that was the second option that we spoke about. Replacement is designed to incentivize preservation and planting in particular of overstory trees. Those are those really big trees that we spoke about earlier so the standard replacement value would be for every one inch of new tree planted, that would count towards 1-inch DBH that had been removed. But if you preserve an overstory tree For one inch preserved, that would count towards two inches of tree that had been removed. and if you planted an overstory on the property or again, on a budding. If given approval one inch of that new overstory planted would count towards three inches

of tree that had been removed. And so the idea is to preserve and encourage the planting of overstory trees, which as we know bigger trees provide bigger benefits So that's a way to incentivize that and was a unique approach that the Trade Committee had developed after discussing this issue at length. So I'm just going to provide a very quick example of what mitigation could look like. So in this scenario, let's say a developer wanted to remove 30 inches DBH total of trees on the property. They might choose the payment option only in which case if they take those 30 inches of trees, multiply that by the $300 per DBH removed ratio. They would pay $9000 into the Tree Replacement Revolving Fund should they choose to replant.

So let's say they're replacing 20 inches of new trees on the property there's 10 inches left that would still have to be accounted for. So again, multiplying by that $300 DBH insured moved ratio they would pay $3,000 into the fund and then finally the preservation option if the developer was able to preserve 15 inches of overstory tree on site with that two-to-one replacement ratio that we spoke about earlier, they would not have to do anything else beyond preservation of those existing 15 inches. So again, this is just one example folks can mix and match depending on what their preference is the idea is to really have that flexibility So with regard to implementation, a review of those potential needs

and discussions with other communities, discussions with the town manager indicates that about nine to 17 hours per week would be required in terms of staff time to support the enforcement of this bylaw. And so, the idea was to really put together a simple clear plan for review process. This work would have to be carried out via part-time certified arborist and Again, the goal is that the enforcement is educational first punitive only if needed focusing again on those minor major violations. and then I will also note that there is a 24-month monitoring period for preserved or replanted trees so if a concern was raised that those trees were not able to

continue to stay healthy for those 24 months, the individual who's responsible for that implementation would follow up with the property owner at that time. Next slide please. So just in summary, the goal with drafting this file was to present a really clear flexible approach to tree preservation. and it aligns with what we've seen in other communities across Massachusetts that have tree bylaws. The goals with this tree bylaw are to support climate resilience, stormwater management in particular. Again trying to address storm water related flooding helping to support the protection of neighborhood character and again trying to pick some of those best examples that we saw from and other Massachusetts communities with tree bylaws, and kind of figure out what are some of the best pieces and what's the best option for Needham. and that does it for me, Madam Chair.

Thanks, guys. That was great. I would just like to add I just want to make it clear what the tree yard is, because as Gabby said, it's a setback area. But for anyone who's not familiar with the zoning terms, this is like the perimeter of your yard where you're not allowed to build your house and the sort of areas next to your property's boundary, and it goes around. And you can really only build your house in the center of your lot. This bylaw doesn't touch the center of your law. It's only concerned with the area where you can't put a house anyway, and that's and many people's trees are. I also wanted to make clear that when we talk about preserving an overstory tree in order get those credits.

That overstory tree can be anywhere on your lot, it doesn't have to be one of the protected trees if you have a tree that's right next to your house and you want to save that and put an addition off the back you know, that tree counts even though it's not in the tree yard. So we're talking about saving the trees or preserving the trees in the you get credit for trees that are in the middle of your yard, that you choose to preserve. This is not really something that other communities do and the idea was really make it in everyone's best interest to save as many of our mature trees, the trees that are doing the majority of the environmental work. as possible. And it's really just to address the clear cutting of loss that's happened in our home replacement, because that's where we're losing the most trees. So it doesn't address every situation. But if you're a homeowner who's not doing any construction and you have a tree that you choose to take down,

there is no change for you. We'd love it if you save the tree, but we understand that there are some times when things have to happen and that's the homeowner's choice. This addresses new construction and major construction. It does not address other situations. So we're trying to get the the area where most of this demolition is happening. So those are my just extra little bits. Anyone else? Josh, do you have any?

I think she said that well. The trees in the tree yard are also the trees that are between lots. So some people like a natural buffer between lots, It's meant to address most egregious situations of clear cutting. So this does not prevent all trees from coming down, but the intent is if trees are going to come down, allow the preservation or planting of other trees.

Anything else? I would just like to add that given the really stunning number of 14 football fields coming down, of Canopy coming down, I think it urges us to act sooner rather than later because this is happening all the time. and I also think this is a very well balanced you know plan that gives a lot of flexibility to property owners which I think is great. And to the extent to which it doesn't do everything, you know, I think it's important to get started and not let the perfect be the enemy of the good so especially given those 14 football fields

Thank you to the committee that worked on this. I was sort of wracking my brain, like how do you make an elegant solution threads this needle so well. And this is complicated, but I get it why it's complicated. I think you absolutely need a certified arborist in those nine hours, 17 hours because I can't imagine how this would happen A few questions. One is earth moving, land moving like the landscape in the stormwater. Does that trigger it as well?

It would only trigger if there was a need to pull, for example, like a street opening permit. So if in that instance there is going to be a change with impervious cover that would trigger it. If there was not, then no.

Okay so it's not just construction, its other projects. Can builders can they trade their ratios? Like if they're working in two jobs, can they say I'll cut this tree down but I'll save something here.

That's not how it's currently drafted.

Okay no, no but sometimes people

I think the only trading that could occur would be for replanting. There was an agreement with an abutting property to plant on their property instead of that individual. But no, it's not included at this time. Yeah.

Also the administration of this requires a tree plan with your construction plan so it's by the parcel

I mean so I'll be on the plot plan yes yes yep okay and then there's a case we had where homeowners building new home. It was cutting the roots off a mature canopy tree of the neighbors, Why would this address this? Because quite frankly, we're at risk of losing that tree. And with this addresses, would there be some incentive for the builder to preserve it

So if the homeowner or developer had to pull a permit, whether it was a demolition or new construction permit on the tree mitigation plan, they'd have to identify all of the trees that are within that plot. So those trees would be on the plan, and then they would have to communicate with the tree warden or their designee what they're planning to do with each of those trees. construction on one property was going to impact another I mean the onus is really on again the tree warden or their does a need to determine if that level of encroachment would be detrimental to the tree and if a mitigation requirement would be needed

okay and some of that discretion is built in mm-hmm and also the tree plan would if Parcel Owner indicates that they're going to save a tree, to preserve a tree. There are mitigation efforts. They have to build a sort of they have to fence off the roots of the tree so that it's not used as lay down space or driven over with a heavy machine, things like that. hopefully that will be dealt with up front so that we don't have any nefarious route cutting okay and are we creating a

I just had a question about overstory. So that's 40 feet, right?

Forty feet plus at maturity.

And so How do you plant an overstory? I can't imagine that someone's going to get a 40-foot tree.

No, no. So the minimum caliper planting is 1 and 1 half inches calipers. pretty small for a minimum planting. It's certainly possible that someone could plant a larger caliber tree, but that's unlikely. So that's actually one of the advantages, I think, of having that ratio for replanting overstory because it's true when you plant those trees they're quite small but they will grow to be quite large.

So it's based on, I think the species of the tree, right?

What it will grow to be at maturity.

Oh yeah, sorry, I misunderstood your question.

But actually that the tree warden educated us that a one and half inch caliper tree is actually most likely to survive. We had sort of been thinking, oh well it would be nice Heftier trees, right. But actually they're not as likely to survive as a one and a half inch caliper so that's the choice.

Like your red maples or white oaks like those really big guys.

Thank you.

Just quickly, one more thing. Do you go over the penalty? The $300 penalty per day How does that work?

Yeah. So the way that the bylaw is drafted, there's an expectation that there's going to be a tree plan that's submitted should that activity require a tree plan. And there's an expectation individual, the applicant is going to comply with what's required for the tree bylaw. There's I believe it's 10 business days after the plan is submitted that the tree ward another designee will review that then if changes are required to the tree plan, the applicant has another 10 business days to respond to those so if that individual is not complying with what's included in the plan and that's determined by the tree warden again, the goal is education first. So there'd be conversations with that applicant.

But ultimately, if they are not complying with what's required with the bylaw up to a $300 fine could be issued by the tree warden per day.

OK, so this is a public hearing. So if anyone is in the room who wants to make a public comment just raise your hand and we'll call you up So we'll start with you. Come on up. Just remember As always, when we do public comment, we're going to just say your name, address and try to keep it to round three. OK. Thanks. Hi.

I'm Nick Hill. I'm 7 Needhamdale Road. I also happen to be chair of the Climate Action Committee, so speaking dual roles. And just to say that as a committee we support The whole process and the proposed changes. And a reminder that we have a climate action plan roadmap, and one of the goals I'll read it is Goal NA1 for natural resources and waste. Public and private landscapes are designed to be climate resilient, manage stormwater. Maximize tree canopy and promote community resilience and carbon sequestration. The first item on that is to protect and enhance The Tree Canopy and Open Space. And the subpart is to develop a tree preservation bylaw.

I'll also say that when we've done and Climate Action Planning Committee tables at the Harvest Fair. It is something people talk to us about that's One of the prime things that people will talk about, the trees. So I've heard a lot about it. And I'll conclude by saying that according to my phone, 14 football fields is 18 and 1 half acres. So that's a lot of land.

I know over here, ma'am you've been waiting for a while. Did you have a comment that you wanted to make? No. Oh, I thought you had your hand up before. Apologies. OK, no worries. Someone else? Les? Come on up.

Hi, I'm Les Kalish, 48 Lake Drive. Generally, I am all in favor of this but I have a couple questions to help me understand it better. So first of all, the retaining and replacing thing. If I have a 30 inch diameter overstory tree if I understand this right and I want to cut it down, I don't want to pay any money. I could say well look I have this 15 inch tree over here that I'm preserving and that would be good enough to you know mitigate cutting down the 30 inch tree with this two-to-one ratio or I could plant a new Teninch Tree, or two fives or four, two and a half trees, whatever. So that's a three to one ratio. So it seems like The bylaw is like valuing a new tree.

If you're going to preserve a tree of a certain size or plant the new tree of the same size, it's sort of valuing the new tree more because you only have to plant a 10-inch tree to replace 30 inches rather than preserve a 15 inch tree. and it seems to me maybe the incentive should be the other way around. I'm just wondering what the rationale is of it seems like keeping a tree that's already established should be sort of valued more than planting a new tree at the same size. Well, that's question one. My other questions are faster. I'm just curious if anyone knows this 14 football fields per year like what that is in terms of percentage of overstory per year that was reduced.

Like, is it 3% per year or 2% per I'm just curious. And then my third question is it seems like the bylaw is regulating the trees by in terms of the diameter of the trunk but what we So it's using sort of the diameter of the trunk as kind of a surrogate for the canopy size, which is what I think we really care about. and you know if you take let's say a 10 inch diameter and a 30-inch diameter tree and you cut them both down the area of the stump

although this one is three times as big diameter the area of the stump of this bigger tree is not three times it's nine times bigger because remember area equals pi r squared because of that r squared and so but I don't really care about the size of the trunk either it's really the canopy. So my question is Is there kind of a rule of thumb if you have two trees, one is three times larger diameter in general, would the canopy area be nine times bigger or three times bigger? Or like is there some kind of rule of thumb in the forestry world about the relationship between the diameter of the trunk and the diameter or the area of you know, the canopy area. So those are my questions.

Thanks, Les. It sounded like you were going to answer at least one of those.

Yeah so I guess first and third. I don't know the second one. So the third I think that the idea of measuring at the diameters, we just need an easy way to measure. Yeah, you know, I agree.

That is the industry standard.

Oh yeah, that too. We don't want drones flying overhead to try and measure the canopy. For the first one, we went back and forth about the ratios to use I think the thinking was saving trees was preferred, actually. And if you have a tree or you have multiple trees that's that is on your lot, it's already there. It's easy to preserve. And so we wanted to make it easier for people to preserve those trees. Whereas if you're planting new trees, By planting new trees, the biomass is less than the trees that you're preserving.

I think there's also an issue that there are only so many trees that can be supported by a given parcel. we can't do a one-to-one replacement because most of our lots are not big enough. And remember, you know, the perimeter of the lot. This is a crowded space already so if you made it a one-to-one and made it little harder so as to encourage preservation instead you will end up with either crowded trees or folks who are trying to do the right thing but don't have the land area to do it and thereby get a very big bill. And so we were trying to thread that needle are both doable. our objective was to have the tree remain because that tree is doing the lion's share of the work. And I will just, I will point out that in the actual text of the bylaw there is like this

Yeah, I saw that.

Crazy old school diagram that talks about the size of the canopy and the drip line and then the size other roofs. and so that's something that will further illuminate that. With regard to this amount of tree canopy, I can't recall the number but I do know that the MWRA is where we got these figures and they did have a

I'm a percentage but i don't recall what it was okay yeah the um the reports uh linked to the tree preservation planning committee website if you wanted to check it out all right thank you thanks les

Anybody else in the room want to comment? Come on up.

I'm Jason Warner. I live in 39 Taylor Street, and everything in this conversation is directly applicable to the house that's being built next door to me right now at 47 Taylor Street. The lot has been clear cut, not a single tree left The privacy issue, even in the wintertime I could not see my neighbors on Laken Street up above me. They're right there now. There's a small area of protected intermittent flooding land that is protected but not just adjacent and I predict that flooding will be a lot less intermittent now because all that water, it's already started.

All of that water is going to run down into and all the people on Ardmore Road, their basements are going to flood more now because of that. The same situation that you mentioned, Kevin, about the roots being cut because the house is so wide. Cut into the side of the hill, and they've now agreed to take down a 60-foot oak tree because they cut off half of the roots. Everything you said in your discussion just applies to this and it's really kind of heartbreaking to me. after 36 years of lots of privacy and cool. Oh, that's the other thing. Last month I paid about $150 more and Electricity, raising my thermostat to 77 degrees.

I still paid $150 more in electricity because my air conditioner was running constantly. So, I would just encourage you all to passed this. So thanks very much. Thank you.

I want to make sure that we have, it looks like we have a comment online.

This is Bellamy Adler.

Hi Bella. Hi, so I have some things I would like to say. Sure. Bella can you just tell us your address please? Yes, 20 Roscoe Street.

Can you turn her up a little bit or no? If the volume on the online participant can go up just a speck, that'd be great.

20 Roscoe Street. Is that loud enough? Thanks, Bella. Go ahead. Good evening members of the select board. My name is Bella and I'm a Needham high freshman involved in environmental advocacy through a student projects called Renew Needham, and I am here tonight to Well, almost kind of tonight to express my support for the proposed treat by law and more broadly for protecting Needham's Tree Canopy. So trees are more than just something that make neighborhoods look nice, you know they absorb carbon dioxide, they provide shade during increasingly hot weather because of climate change. They help manage stormwater, they improve air quality and You know, even more they help pollinators too. It's a big investment which is going to help Needham's environmental future a lot

And I especially appreciate that this proposal focuses on situations where major construction or redevelopment could otherwise result in removal of many trees, like the stat I heard earlier about and the 14 football fields. I never heard about that before. I also think it's important that the bylaw balances tree preservation with homeowners ability to safely develop and maintain their properties. And I also appreciate that when replacement trees cannot reasonably be planted on a property, the proposal provides Tree Replacement Fund as an alternative because this ensures that tree preservation can still benefit the community as a whole.

And lastly, as a student I think it's important for our community to think about the long term effects of decisions we make today. A mature tree can take decades to grow, so replacing another one after it is removed doesn't immediately replace all of the environmental benefits it provided. I hope the select board will continue supporting efforts to protect William Street Canopy while continuing feedback from residents of course and making sure that bylaw is practical fair and effective thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak Thanks, fella.

Thank you.

That was great. OK I see we have another comment in the room. We're going to go to Stephanie first and then you'll let me know if we have more online.

Hello, I'm Stephanie Foreman. I'm at 1022 Webster Street and I really support this project. I think you guys have done amazing work. I've been following it for over a year. I would just love to ask whomever is going to continue with this project, to please keep updating us on how many trees we've been able to replant or how many dollars we've be able to allocate towards our tree fund because I think it's really important to see that the bylaw is actually effective and has some teeth to it, and that people are able to follow it either with replanting new trees or paying towards the fund so I just want to say i'm supportive of it but I would love to see feedback in a year like how it's going and I don't know who that is that will do that

Probably us. OK, probably the town manager. Thanks, Stephanie. All right, thank you. And I guess I want to make it clear what's happening here just so everyone understands the process. We're having this public hearing tonight We're going to put it on the October town meeting warrant. This bylaw will go to town meeting, where town meeting will take a vote and decide if it is enacted or not. So that's the plan of action. Jeff?

Thank you.

Hi. Jeff Heller, I live at 1092 Central Avenue. I also own a couple other properties here in Needham and I'm a tree hugger from way back. This is a long time coming. I think we've lost some magnificent trees way before we even started thinking about this as a process. you know I mean can think of even the one that was at the corner at this split of Rosemary, you know and It was right at that fork there. And one historic house left, and three little ranches went in its place. And the first thing that came down was a big-ass oak tree that I think even was named for that corner. I support all of this work, and I don't think it goes far enough, but I know what the... The fine line you have to walk to make sure you get things to pass.

When I think it does pass, hopefully overwhelmingly, I hope the work doesn't end. because I think that, and I'm going to address some arguments that haven't been made that will probably be made later. I think builders are not going to be happy about it around some of the restrictions. I have saved some trees that were in the building envelope Having had builders and people tell me, oh you took out half the roots. The house was five feet from the tree, digging of the foundation. It will never survive. and not only did it survive but you saw no ill effects of anything dying while that tree had significant amount of roots that were cut. So the example here given of losing a 60-foot oak tree because it's going to be, you know, the roots were undermined. Things live. They want to live. Right?

They don't die just because they were disturbed. and there could be mitigation made to support the tree even after damaging it. So that's a case as well. but I would so I'd like to see the committee continue with its work okay and maybe start to address a bylaw that affects current homeowners because this is only something that's done in response to construction. But if there's a 60-foot oak tree that some neighbor wants to take down, that's on a boundary they can do it without any cause by right, without any intervention by the tree warden or the neighborhood. you know and that trees like that affect the neighborhood.

And I think this should go farther. I mean, I think it's taking consideration what the tree is because someone wants to take down You know, a 30-foot Norway maple. We know it's not a valued tree. It grows fast. and if someone has a plan to mitigate that loss and put something of a native tree in its place, that's great. But I think people have to, even homeowners, have to take into some consideration about losing our canopy. It affects our whole community, it affects the neighborhood so I would like to see the work continue. Thank you.

Anyone else in the room would like to make a comment? Barb, come on up.

I really wasn't planning on speaking about this tonight. Just remember your name and your... So it's Barbara McDonald, and I'm at 147 Pickering Street. So I really wasn't planning on talking about this tonight, but I did hear that the public buildings are exempt from this. So I really think that maybe the bylaw doesn't go far enough and it should include any public buildings. Is that true?

I don't think they're mentioned.

It covers, like there's a tree yard for public trees so currently without this bylaw you're right it doesn't cover that

but trees in setback areas are protected. Whether it applies to other than residential, I don't know.

actually. So trees, public trees or trees that are on for example like town-owned property are exempt from the bylaw as currently drafted and to John's point earlier, public shade trees are covered under Chapter 87

OK. So with that being said, does that mean that the Pollard School, the trees that are planned to come down for the Pollards school are going to be exempted or they're going to included in this?

well under the draft of the bylaw town-owned public trees are exempt but we can give an update on the pollard tree plants in terms of replanting but under the by law

I mean, I think the setbacks are such and the desire to keep significant tree buffer The preservation of the existing trees, if you use this draft bylaw would probably be quite generous.

So because my understanding is there's approximately 350 trees that are coming down. So if somebody could just confirm that figure

Yeah, we'll be doing a tree plan for the Pollard and will update that publicly. I don't have that information here today.

OK. I just want to make sure that that's included in this. Thank you.

That was a good question because actually I didn't realize that. Where in the bylaw does it say that municipal lots are exempt?

Yeah, I don't think it does. It's under the exemptions section which...

The sections still have X's, but section X.3 has... It's in the right of way.

I'm clicking it. Yeah, under applicability, section 3... section 3.2 non-applicability so like where we say hazardous trees, infested trees that are considered public trees yeah

Okay, so we'll work to clarify this. And I think that the Pollard work does include a tree plan. Doesn't it?

The power work does include a tree plan. We can give an update on that, but I just want to be clear that the by-law is drafted and that I would recommend exempts town owned trees so we can get an update specific to the pot. Pollard. Great, great.

Just one second. All right see ya! Okay, does anyone have any other comments about that? The subject that was just brought up. Okay then Jeff come on. Yeah you have to yep.

Jeff Heller again. Could you clarify the reasoning behind such an exemption? I don't understand it. If the Pollard, with all those beautiful trees that are there We don't have the information on the Pollards But just as an example, any trees that have to come down within the building envelope would be exempt from any penalty or incentive. right because of the and it could be a large building an envelope and takes down a lot of trees but anyone outside of that that building envelope that had 14 feet setback and I don't think the setbacks any different from municipal buildings as well, right? Construction. All the 60 feet back. Right setbacks? 60 feet. It's 60 feet?

Yeah and the setbacks are I'm not trying to avoid this conversation, but I and I don't think my colleagues have the the information that is required to answer this question. So what I'm going to say is, I hear you and I hear the concern and I think we need to address it

I might suggest in the two weeks that you have of this public hearing process and that you maybe can amend the bylaw if you see so fit after discussing it. Because if you don't, I'm going to ask on the town meeting floor what's the reasoning and propose an amendment.

We'll for sure have a good answer, okay? Okay, thank you. I promise. Thanks Jeff. All right. Anyone else online? No, okay. Anyone in the room? Okay. All right, then in that case We will close the hearing and move along. Thanks for coming, everyone.

As an aside, is there something else you want to say?

It's a public meeting. Everything's on. There's no asides. No, no, no. But email us and we'd be happy to.

That's fine. I just forgot to say something.

Thank you. Okay, the next item on our agenda is the Stephen Palmer Jurisdiction Memorandum of Agreement for which we will turn to our Town Manager.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The memorandum of agreement before you is unchanged from your last meeting and again this is to articulate the school committee's desire to retain the parcel for the longer term and the school committee's request that select board continue responsibility of overseeing the winding down of the residential use. And so the MOA codifies that.

great and i'll open it up to colleagues does anyone have any comments no just thank the town manager again for doing this this basically allows the select board to um Manage any residential leases that or any residents who are in the building after May 3rd, 2027 when it would go back to the school committee with the land and go back We had this kind of D. Hall, like in terms of jurisdiction where we didn't know what would happen and you know we've said many times that we don't want to be a landlord so in that event we have discussed maybe the possibility of getting a management agreement or a management company but We don't know. This just allows for that possibility.

Yes, OK.

So I would move that the board vote to execute the memorandum of agreement between the select board and the school committee regarding the Stephen Palmer property transition.

Thanks, Bill. Anyone else? Second. Excellent, OK. All right then, all in favor say aye. Aye. Those opposed? The motion passes. Thank you. All right. Next, we're going to have a joint meeting, the Select Board and Park and Recreation Commission. Miles just ran out to get them. Can we move the consent? Yeah, sure. Great idea. All those in favor?

Aye.

Fantastic. All right, so the Vice Chair of Select Board has been working in committee with the Park and Recreation Commission, come on up. Members of which are joining us now and they held quite a lot of interviews We're going to, first can we just start with if you guys don't mind introducing yourself for the public. That would be great and then do you need to call your meeting to order? or have you already done that?

We have not done that. Do we need to do that here? Yeah. So if you want a call to order the Park and Rec Commission meeting on Tuesday, September 8th. I hope it would be September already. That's all I have to say.

All right, fantastic. And everyone just go ahead and say your names

James. Michelle Geddes, the chair of the Park and Rec Commission.

Excellent.

Tim Rosenbaum, vice-chair.

Thank you. Cindy Chastain, commissioner. Thank You. And it's just the three of you this evening right? It is. Okay fantastic. and so the idea here is that we have after interviewing eight applicants jointly with the vice chair, that you have three applicants that have been recommended for appointment and we're here to discuss them and to move forward with making an appointment tonight. I just want to, I feel obligated to stress that this this is important for me to say that typically I don't believe we should be discussing candidates appointing appointment candidates in public. I have said that here before this position is a little bit different than ones that we have discussed in the past and that's because we are pointing a position appointing a volunteer for, a position that actually is an elected office.

So in the normal course of events, a candidate would run for office and that sort takes away any of the expectation of privacy or anonymity that a candidate could expect. And so when we discuss this particular appointment, it is different than the others that this board typically does. So I just want to say that because I know it's been brought up before, I think it was brought up in the interviews that you had at Park and Rec So I guess I'll just turn it over to you. Do you want to walk us through the process?

Thank you. Yes, so there were eight applicants. We interviewed all eight and Michelle and I had four meetings of the subcommittee to discuss the process, the questions that would be asked. And then we interviewed seven of them due to scheduling conflicts. We couldn't get all eight in one room during the same time. But we interviewed 7 of them in a public session with Harkin Rec present, and I know some members of the select board were present as well. And then it was interviewed at a later date with Michelle and I. And then, we were very pleased with all of the candidates. It was actually really hard to choose We can only appoint one, so we had to narrow it down a little bit. We didn't want to come with all eights to the whole board. So these three were very impressed with their backgrounds for different reasons So the names of the three that we're recommending for consideration, Steve Doroyan, Karen Pierce and Stephanie Doherty.

Do you want to say a little bit about them?

Yeah, I'm happy to. And I think we were looking at candidates wanting to look for skills that were differentiated from some of the skills that are currently present with the commission Karen Pierce I think was definitely consistently the first in terms of tiering from the commissioners just coming with a lot of experience direct park and rec experience has worked with pools, has worked the towns, with working groups. Understands the differences between how different Towns operate and can bring a lot of that experience to the commission. So definitely differentiated skills Steve Joran brings very

visible in the town is very like has been involved with a lot of coaching, a lot different teams. could bring a lot of kind of understanding of how like the fields are used and how we work across different teams. So he was another candidate, Stephanie Doherty again more Park and Rec experience. So she had worked in the pool, has been involved in Needham for a long time, has worked as a lifeguard so his understanding of kind of cool mechanics and brings again another differentiated are the three skill set to the commission. So those were the three that kind of bubbled up to the top, but I would say just on behalf I think we felt that Karen was the strongest candidate across the board in terms of the next commissioner.

Great. Any extra commentary from you guys?

No, it was pretty good. I mean all the candidates were good but with her experience, she was clearly ready right now to lead and be a member of the commission.

Great.

It seems like since we're midstream with eight months to go, it's really important to get someone who can come in and understand things right away and she'd be able to make a contribution immediately if she knows that department inside and out, and she knows Park and Rick inside-out. So she is clearly a great candidate.

Great okay it sounds like you all are in consensus on the candidate that is your first choice so I'll open it up to colleagues if you have any questions you want to ask and any of these folks or

I would just comment that in a situation like this where we're replacing an elected person midstream you know the two things that i would look at our first experience because that is something objective you know and that we can all understand when later the prison is going to be elected. And and the second thing would be what you all as the experts in your own area would want so those would be the two criteria that would be most important to me

Madam Chair just to be clear this is an appointment through the annual town election in April so yeah this person is free to run but so are other people yes absolutely and and the person who is appointed will not be listed as the incumbent um

I would concur with Miss Pierce. I think it's great that we had eight candidates, it's really fantastic. It's great to have these top three but unfortunately there is only one spot and I know her from when I was on the Park Rec Commission in a previous life and I know her from that, and I just think her experience would be invaluable to the Commission at this point. And I would recommend any of the others you know to take into consideration whether there is a town election. I think the papers, I wish Louise was still here but I think they'll be available January 2nd. So if you're interested in running for the position, hopefully they will do that.

I'd like to thank everyone who applied. It takes a lot of guts to do it and you know, I watched the interviews and I was surprised we do attract a lot qualified very qualified candidates all of them were great. I think at the end of the day though, you're the ones who have to work with this person so I put a love what do you wish is I think First, my mind is let's get someone midstream who can jump in and make this commission fully working. With that, I would make a motion to select board and the Park and Recreation Commission vote to appoint Karen Pierce to the Park & Recreational Commission until the next town election. Second.

any more discussion do you all have any discussion okay well in that case We do this separately, right? I would do separate votes. OK, well since there's a select board motion on the table, I will ask the select board to say aye if you agree. Aye. Okay, great so we have voted and now you guys can make your own motion to appoint your candidate.

it is it is joint i mean i think the way we did the last time for nha it's a majority of the joint members well then so should we just

you're out of luck because you're in the minority here tonight um yeah so um either way i think you should you should have your own uh motion on the record okay so a motion to vote

to appoint.

Karen Fierce. I would make that motion to appoint Karen Fiers to the unexpired term of Park and Rec Commission until next April.

Second. All those in favor say aye.

Aye. Wonderful. Okay, fantastic. Well, congratulations to you on having a new member. Congratulations, Karen. Thank you. Don't forget to adjourn. Yes, motion. Everyone who participated in this process and all the and the candidates, especially. Thank you, Judge.

Motion to adjourn. Parking Rec Meeting? Second. Second? OK. Hi. I have a motion to adjour for us.

Not yet. Also, I just... No, you guys are good. I think that I neglected to say a very public thank-you to the Tree Committee because they were Phenomenal. It was just so awesome to work with them, I think you'll agree. Gabby led the team but every single person on the tree committee was awesome and I think I didn't say that out loud so I'm saying it now thank you thank you

and we really compromised. It was a lot of good dialogue.

Yeah, it was really good. Okay, thank you. Sorry. Needed to get that off my chest. All right, so now we're going on to the Pollard project update and I think we have lots of players who can all join in. So we're going to have Elisa Skatrud, the school committee chair. I see the superintendent, Dan Gutkhanst, Hank Haff, Meryl Nistler, Dave Davison, Tina Stanislavski and Matt LaRue. And if I missed anyone, say so. Hi gang! All right, so there's been some stuff since we last saw you. So if we can...

walk us through where we are. And I see that we have a fantastic presentation. Who's leading the gang here?

So good evening. So we want to take you through, begin with the educational piece and kind of ground ourselves in that. That's why we're here. And then get into some of the technical design aspects and financing. That is kind of the three big buckets if that makes sense. So I'll get right into it. The Ports of Interim Graduate, I think you may know is the framework that we're using. Next slide. and it's what we use to base our educational plan which is fundamental to the MSBAs acceptance of our program into their process. and it was developed several years ago. And we're keeping it alive with the work that we're doing in our schools, and it's guiding our planning, and our curriculum, and the way we interact with our students. Next slide Miles thank you.

I think you probably understand that teaching and learning is different than it was when we were all in middle school or junior high school, it might have been called. And certainly the needs of students have evolved and this design, I believe as your superintendent really addresses current needs for students and the way we teach in the way they learn today. and it also provides flexibility for future needs which is really, really important. One tiny aspect of that is we're not looking in our design to be and building all kinds of things into the floors and walls, knowing that those things may have to change in future years. So we're really thinking about, in a thoughtful way, a collaborative learning environment for our kids. Next slide. Miles, thank you. and so you understand that this process was developed over a couple of years with many people at the table

I won't read the list of folks but we involved and engaged staff across the district in particular at the middle school. We included parents, students, town public safety folks and others to really help us understand what the middle school experience should be. And how can we best support learning at Pollard? Next slide Project Goals, there were really four to maintain the cluster model which has become kind of a cherished model and provides kind of school within a school feel within our middle school. We wanted to make sure there were right-sized classrooms. So all of the classroom spaces are all larger than what we currently exist at Pollard and at High Rock. And we also wanted to be sure that there were sufficient spaces to meet the program, and also program growth over time. This plan achieves that. And importantly, there's enrichment access for all of our kids. It doesn't happen at High Rock right now. We don't have the space for full enrichment access. This plan does.

provide that in grades six through eight, and importantly it provides opportunity for new refreshed and expanded special education spaces which were sorely lacking in our current facilities. So with that, those are the project goals. A little bit of the educational planning and I think I will turn this over to Matt.

Thanks Dan. Part of the thoughtful decision making that went into coming up with the design and program for the new school was That's the goal of right-sizing spaces. And right sizing means not overbuilding and using up resources that are valuable to the town and to the project. but making sure that we weren't undersizing them and resulting in overcrowding or overutilization of spaces. And so our goal was to really hit that sweet spot of a utilization rate for all of our spaces that the MSBA asks us to hit, which is about 85%. of each space. And so we worked with the groups of teachers to find out how they're going to be using the spaces, We worked with the schedules that developed by the principals to find out where the students were going to be at any one period and made sure there was a space for everybody.

learning and collaborating that are going to go on at all hours of the school day. And through that, we were able to massage the size of the program that we had coming out PSR phase, the feasibility and a few of the things that we did to help manage the size of the schools. We were able to shave some square footage off the gymnasiums We made sure that we had the right number of teaching spaces available for this schedule. We've made sure we have room for an audience or spectators to watch games, and that we had the overrun spaces on the courts to make sure that the games could be played in a safe way. but beyond that, we didn't need more space than that and were able to eek a little bit of square footage out of the gym. We made sure that the classrooms were maximizing their utilization.

That meant not every teacher is going to have their own classroom in Pollard Middle School, In particular, there's world language and art spaces where there is going to be some sharing. It didn't make sense to have spaces that were going to empty for parts of the day just so a teacher could have their own classroom.

Can I ask a question about that?

Sure.

So in the educational plan, so this is something that concerns me. I've been emailing and texting with some members of the school committee I can be more comprehensive later, but specific to arts and world language. In the educational plan it seems like because of this reduced or increased utilization There's probably 44 students per class in the world language rooms and in the visual arts rooms.

No, that's not correct. They're not 44 students in one class. They are up to 28 in a class.

Then why does it say 44 in the educational plan?

I'll have to look at that.

So in particular for arts, there are currently five art rooms across High Rock and Pollard, and it's being reduced to three?

Correct. but they're utilizing also one of the technology spaces will double as an arts room.

This indicates a total number of students who'll be served Williams, who is the assistant superintendent for instruction and innovation was key to developing the education plan. I think that refers to the total number of students being served, not how many sections of students at 44 each.

So the schedule for elective classes is every other day? There's an A-B schedule? So on an A day, students would have their core classes math, science, social studies to ELA and one elective. And then on B day they'd have a different elective so given the AB schedule there would be a total of 44 students Okay, so every other day there are 22 kids per class?

Yep.

Average, it depends on the level of course that they've taken.

Right and what about world language? Is that the same?

It is the same for all the electives so if its instrumental social I mean not social studies sorry wellness

Technology, Engineering, Art, Music

World Language isn't an elective, is it? It is. The teachers help select the level and or the language that they take. We offer three languages right now, French, Spanish Mandarin. Okay. and American Sign Language, four.

And so then on the art question why are there fewer art rooms?

So one of the reasons for fewer classrooms is that we're looking at being more efficient with the schedule. So at High Rock right now, High Rock operates on a trimester with six periods and Pollard operates on the trimester was seven periods. We have to have one schedule for the building. And there is currently at High Rock, I think today's a day, the art room at High I think I have it correct today. He was a, I think he was a B day had four days in which the art room, four periods in which So if you imagine that art room at High Rock on this particular day, four periods there are empty. When we go into the new building, we can take advantage of those empty spaces with seventh and eighth graders.

So we can be more efficient with our use of classrooms at a New Pollard because we have everybody under one roof in a similar way with the staff, instead of having shared staff two principals or two cafeteria managers we can have one so we were very thoughtful about making sure that we could fit a sufficient number of students in those classrooms but also not create excess classrooms Duplicating essentially what we have between High Rock and Pauley because it isn't necessary when they're under one roof.

So it's higher utilization of the rooms?

It's higher utilisation of the room, yes. Thank you for saying that.

When I was on the school master plan extension study, I guess that the need expressed was that the current utilization is too high. But we're going to a model where the utilization is even higher

The utilization is different between both buildings, and High Rock happens to have a different utilization than Apollo does.

But I think one of the differences since the master plan was done has been the evolution of some of our special education programs and moving those programs out of High Rock entirely. There's a group of students that never, as sixth graders, never goes to High Rock they go to Pollard instead and there are some programs at High Rock that were collapsed into one classroom. I think that's where you get these sort of you know, but it's hard to tell a special education kid like okay on Monday your gonna go here if its in the morning but on Tuesday your going to go there if its the afternoon. It just doesn't work So I think that's some of the difference between what was originally studied in the master plan and utilization there, and what we're looking at in terms of utilization totally here.

The master plan envisioned a combined six through eight. That hadn't changed. I think what has changed is the design, but the configuration didn't change. It was envisioned as a six through eight anyway.

Yes, but you're talking about the problem that was identified of overutilization at High Rock because some students no longer go to High Rock. Some of those special education spaces that were evaluated in 2020 don't exist at High Rock right now. So there's a mismatch between 2020 evaluation and the plan that has been designed for today.

also took a very, very deep dive into the education program with the MSBA. Whereas the school master plan I won't say glossed over it, but was not able to get into that depth of analysis related to the education program.

I think it would be helpful to go through some of the next pieces that might answer some of

Just continuing, the cafeteria is a space that we saw. It can be empty other than breakfast and lunch times of the day and how do we make this a more valuable space. And so putting it at the hub of the school makes it more likely that people are going to go there and use it for those kind of impromptu or unplanned educational situations. is connected to the classroom wings. It's the place that's right adjacent to the auditorium and the gymnasium, so those are overflows that can happen in this space. We don't have to build an additional lobby let's say and it's also going to get well used in the after hours of school days. And then we did some paring down of outdoor spaces, and administrative spaces that we found were not necessary

were leftovers from the MSBA template. Next slide, please. And now I'm going to walk you through a few of the key spaces in the building The first one is talking about the cluster itself. And these are made up of four core subject classrooms, this is really the building block for the whole school. So sixth through eighth grade has this configuration, every student will partake in this and live within their cluster to some degree through the school day, more in sixth grade and then less in eighth grade. They are integrated with a a variety of other support learning spaces, small group learning rooms special education spaces science storage

So each cluster has these amenities along with it, and then we've configured this all around a shared open space. We call the learning lab that's that gray area in the center of the photograph This is where a variety of types of learning and assembly can happen within the cluster. It's a space that's open and visible from all the classrooms around it. It has natural light, and I'll get more into that on the next slide. We switch to the next slide now. The learning lab itself is a little bit smaller than a regular classroom, and we can do that and still fit The same number of students in it because we're taking advantage of the hallway space as the circulation space for the lab, as opposed to building another four-walled room which needs its own circulation space within it. And so there's some efficiency that we're realizing in that.

And we're keeping it pretty open and flexible, and using furniture to help configure the space. And furniture that can be moved around in different configurations. The natural light. Sorry if you have a question?

Just the Learning Lab's not a classroom, right?

It's an unowned classroom that can be a second space to move out into for any of the classrooms within the cluster. if there's collaboration between two teachers and they want to bring their classes out together, if they have students who are working on a messy project that they don't want to reconfigure the classroom to do that in. If they have an author coming in from the outside, you can bring students out. And it's also just a great place to get up and move to a different setting because learning happens a lot better when you're not just sitting in the same chair the whole time.

I know the beat on you.

Also, learning happens better when you have good access to natural light which each of these will and a connection to the outdoors that's pretty immediate and available.

Can I ask another question? Sure. I don't know how to judge this, so I'm just asking it because I've heard it. Because it's not enclosed It feels like it's in the hallway. It's among the circulation, so we explicitly try to get kids out of the hallway to have classroom time there. Can you explain how this is different?

Yeah, it's like you're taking that narrow hallway which has to accommodate all of the circulation load and then you're adding some students or maybe even some furniture at the edges and constricting that circulation more. And now, you're pulling it apart and you're using that space, that you've pulled it apart to populate with the things that would be in the way of students circulating around them. But for the most part, this space is going to get used during the class times and not during passing times. So you're not going to have that conflict anyway. In fact, this will help the passing times a little bit because any time there's kind of a bottleneck that might form, pressure relief area where the students can merge into.

Could I comment on this as a recent teacher? That, I love this space like this I would have really liked to have a space like this when i was teaching outside of my rooms because a lot of times when you want to have students doing group work you can do it within the classroom but it can get very crowded and very loud, and sometimes you need to spread out. So you might have a few groups still in your classroom and a few group out of your classroom, and you configure them in different ways but I always did a lot of group work. with my students and I think this would be a great space to do it in. And that, I think is true for many, many teachers. The other thing I would say is with the utilization of the classrooms. I never had my own classroom, it was fine and I think that having classrooms empty just so a teacher can have their own classroom would raise the cost of the whole building for no educational purpose.

So I guess as a former teacher, just speaking in that role, I get this and I think it makes a lot of sense and I would have liked that.

Josh, are you familiar with Sunita floor plan inside the building and those kind of breakout areas? So that's elementary. So that is called a project-based area. same concept. This is for older kids, it's in the middle of the hallway for that gathering whereas an elementary school kind of tucks kids away a bit more so it's the same concept at an older kid level. So that's the reasoning behind it. Thank you.

Next slide, please. The typical classrooms around these learning labs. A depiction of what one of those looks like. It's a bit bigger than either the Pollard or High Rock typical classrooms, and one of the goals here was to again keep it flexible as possible so that even if a portion of this space is fairly square which means you're not Far away from a teaching wall at any one point. We have storage along one side and flexible furniture throughout the rest of the space Natural light's really important. So something we did, we tilt the ceiling that allows us to get the windows to be taller. That means you're going to get natural light all the way into the back of the classroom and where the ceiling is lower on the hallway side is where we put all the ductwork in the building systems.

And then on the classrooms, I guess this is where there are three fewer classrooms compared to current general classroom space?

if you're looking at just general classrooms. But, you have to look at the totality of general classrooms plus the science rooms and we have more science than what they have now so...

We have also more world language as well, ELL and health. So it's equivalent and more than what we have currently.

I think, well there's one more ELL. I thought world language was the same but anyway, I guess the question about utilization is... I asked this before and the answer that came back was because they're larger classrooms, you can fit more students in them. And though the current planning is for 21 to 22 students, they can fit up to 26 students in there. So I guess it's just a trade-off by having fewer larger classrooms. You fit more student in those classrooms, and class sizes could potentially be larger.

But is it really fewer? I just heard you say that there were more science classrooms than you said there are. There are.

Because the cluster model, we're going to have that four classroom module throughout the building. It's making sure that you have the three core classrooms plus science in each module. And so it's hard to break it up and have five less classrooms, because then you don't have a space for social studies in one of the clusters or something like that.

I just want to know a little bit later in the deck there's a space summary table that compares all the spaces and the aggregate so it may be helpful to kind of walk through some of these examples get to that table see where what questions we have

Let's move to the next slide. The library is a really important space in Pollard. The interest here is to have it be active and at the heart of the school, so we've located it next to the main entrance and there's good transparency between inside and outside. When you're outside, you can tell where the library is and go to it in a kind of easy defined way. Within the library, we're sizing it to accommodate the full book collection between Pollard and High Rock. And it's a big book collection comparatively and the librarians have already gone through and made sure they've called out and not have duplicates that would be taking up extra space. So we're pretty solid about what we think we need there

We also are accommodating instructional area for two classes to sit together within the library. One of them is in a flexible, a space that would be closed off, a collaboration space. The other one's in the reading area. And then there's also a smattering of tables and chairs throughout the library that can accommodate up to a whole other class who is doing research or browsing through books, or using media.

And this is where the library's 22% smaller than combined Pollard and High Rock.

And that tracks about what we've been doing on our middle school projects. You just don't generally have the kind of wide needs and uses that happened in a library. back when a lot of these other buildings were built.

The important thing though, we need to add it. We have a really robust K through 12 library program which I'm really proud that the district and the community is committed to and we have kids who some of their teaching involves being in the library, beginning in kindergarten and continuing. What has changed now with library science and what's going on with our library, the adjacent spaces, the collaboration space is media technology. Our librarians are using those spaces as well so while the library is 5,050 square feet give or take. The additional spaces are contributing to what our librarians, our teachers and our students and staff are using which happens right now at High Rock and at Pollard for library and media.

And that media studio space is a space where a class can be taught, an elective class but it also can be taken advantage of by the librarians

Is that media studio space counted in the 5,000 square feet? No. It's outside of it.

So let's try to hold those kinds for the space summary so we can see it all together. I think it would be really helpful to assess

I'll try, but if I have specific questions, I think I want to address them as they come up. Next slide please

and going to the cafeteria again at the hub of the building. Because it's at the Hub, it's a space that people are passing through and circulating to get to each other part of the and it's an open space. It's not walled in, and it is flexible and can be used in many different ways over the school day and after school. there will be three lunch periods we know that one per grade however the size of the classroom the cafeteria is so that they could go to two lunches at the current enrollment if and so chosen. And what that does, it allows if there is an enrollment increase in the future cafeteria can already absorb that you know you can add classrooms on but it's harder to add more cafeteria space so it's already built in here

and this size also means that students really can find the kind of space that they work well in when they're in a social situation like eating lunch. And so there'll be a variety of scales and spaces, some are single height and some are taller spaces. Some are little nooks in the corner There will be high top tables, there'll be group tables and smaller tables as well. So really it's about providing a place for everybody and to pay attention to the wellbeing of each student. Again, I mentioned this is an overflow space for many of the activities that will happen after school. The gym and the cafeteria opening up here. and that now we're coming up on the space summary. This is a table of, is that okay if I go with it? Yeah, go with your honor roll.

This shows the categories of space throughout the school in comparing it to what's existing at Pollard and High Rock today. what's proposed, and then how much of it is deemed eligible by the MSBA for reimbursement. and I think the really good news here is that between core academic and special education which is the big majority of teaching spaces in this school it's almost all eligible for reimbursement. It doesn't always happen, and I think you should be happy that MSBA judged it that way. throughout the rest of the program there's ups and downs in each category compared to what there is today but For the most part, we're getting a bigger building that will accommodate the full uses of this sixth through eighth grade. You want to add anything?

One thing to note is that in the other category, that's what the auditorium is. That will One of the music spaces is going to take place in that category. So even though art and music looks like it's smaller than what you have today, that's because part of that is taking place in the auditorium.

But this is just looking at square footage. So if you count the number of band and chorus rooms, there's three fewer banding chorus rooms in the new design compared to Hurricane Pollard and even, I mean there's one auditorium in the new building so that's...

There'll be three general classrooms as well. Three music classrooms plus the band of course and... in total will be seven spaces including the auditorium, which is more than we have now.

Yeah and they're just for different purposes so like the big banding chorus rooms are used for like big ensembles like sectional breakouts you know the small classrooms could be used for a small class or smaller size group. So in terms of big ensemble spaces, there are fewer.

The auditorium will address the large ensembles. And I think we're going to get back to the utilization of the space again and the schedule and so how we group students based on their ability, their interests, their instrument can be adjusted to make sure that the space works.

Yeah. But with the auditorium, you have one auditorium now at Pollard and one auditorum in the future of Pollard so that you're not getting a new space right?

We'll be more efficient with their scheduling because we'll be under the same roof. Which is not the case now, because we duplicate these rooms and spaces between both buildings so that would be more efficient when it's under one roof.

If you look at the total, and we can circulate this. There's a slide that was used in a different presentation. If you looked at the core academic classrooms and the total enrichment classrooms were down two from the total between Pollard and High Rock versus the new Pollard. And those two classrooms are in the core academic, but it's the world language that we were talking about earlier. A little higher utilization there so we'll send this to you.

Any other questions?

as I think you know we did get approval from the MSBA to the whole team congratulations and they did approve the budget that was submitted. This is a breakdown of the various costs and what are excluded costs I don't need to repeat every single number, but I think it's important to note that the Reimbursement amount we had been talking about total reimbursement of somewhere between 20 and 25 percent at the end of the day. and here we're achieving approximately 24.7% reimbursement on the overall project that includes soft costs and hard costs

some of the elements that are excluded we've talked about before they cap various areas of their reimbursement. So they kept the cost per square foot of the building at $605 per square and as you may recall from our last presentation we're just under a thousand dollars a square foot so that in and of itself is probably the biggest deduction in terms of excluded costs. Likewise there's a cap on building demo, and also a cap on site costs. and all of those lead us to the total excluded costs noted in this table.

Can I just jump in for a second, Hank? I just want to amplify that point. There's no such thing as an MSBA project that gets 100% reimbursement on their eligible spaces every square foot of eligible space on any MSBA project is subject to the cap. And so you're never going to see a full percentage I've seen reference to the MSBA must not like this project because we're eligible for 40 something percent and we only are coming in at 20. The MSBA has been very positive about this project and has approved every change to the guidelines that we've made. The difference is because of the caps on every square foot of the building cost. I just wanted to highlight that. You were doing a great job, Hank, but I think it's a really important point and the source of a lot of confusion in the community right now.

Thank you, Elisa for that clarification. Because the MSBA didn't penalize us in any way. Absolutely not. Based upon the educational program it differed in some ways. So for instance like in the library like the MSBA would have reimbursed more if the space that had been used for what are you calling it? No, not Meridian Labs. But the Media Studio for instance. I don't think the Media studio was reimbursed the same way as the Media Center.

It is for technology space. Oh, for technology. OK.

So that's the thing you need to push and pull because what happens is MSBA gives you this Excel spreadsheet with givens to every community in the state . now it's a template. So you have to push and pull to have that meet the specifics of the district, and with that we're pushing and pulling so for example the typical classroom could be 850 to 950 square feet. We said, hey let's try and keep the building tight to save costs we made it 850 however our learning labs are not listed here and not part of because that's something that our community wants. So the MSBA gave us money for that, so it's a bit of push-and-pull to come at it it's understanding where those happen to make those compensations for the template that doesn't meet our needs.

Right, thank you. Thank you for correcting me. that what they credited for the learning labs was the difference between the 850 and 950. Exactly, yeah. But if you had, if for instance there had been 54 classrooms which was the MSB standard at 850. That would have been more square footage that I think would've been reimbursed but again, I don't know exactly how their calculations work.

It's the push and pull again so another example which I think I've never seen before is the gym. So they have a memo from 1996 or something, but it basically says we will reimburse for one gym. Well, Pollard has two we said this in the educational program, and we're getting most of the second gym reimbursed which is unheard of because they have this guideline. And they're breaking their own rules really so it's understanding how the system works and it's very complicated. And I think the experience of past MSBA projects that HMFH has worked on, that we see what works and what doesn't work I think 84% reimbursement or 84% of spaces being reimbursed is incredible. I hadn't seen that percentage before.

It did seem as though most stuff like 99% of the changes you made were accepted for a reimbursement. Which is surprising, actually. Accepted as an alteration to the guidelines but then also accepted for reimbursements. it sounds like they heard your reasoning and understood and accepted yeah and agreed that your rationale is correct yes but at the top we took a one-third haircut because of their cap on reimbursement per square foot

One third off.

Sure, but that's across... Everybody has that. That's not specific to Needham? Correct. Okay so that's just the rules of the game.

Exactly, exactly. Can you while we're on reimbursement just explain the difference between the 42.68 percent reimbursement and the effective 24.7%. The next slide, I think.

Yeah, next slide. OK. So to get their reimbursement rate, we started off with a base rate of 31%. We had socioeconomic factors of 5.89 added on and then incentive points We got some incentive points because the town maintains its buildings very well. Energy Efficiency, and Indoor Air Quality. We will get those points because we adopted the specialized code Yes, the design team has to work very hard on the specifications but we anticipate getting those extra points.

but when you multiply, you're not multiplying the full cost of the building Times is 42.74%. You're multiplying that amount only by that which they deem as eligible. and so that's getting us to a little over 79 million in their reimbursement, in their base reimbursement. and potential contingency grant of an additional 1.6. And that's how we get to the, these are rounded numbers they're more detailed numbers than the prior page of the potential maximum reimbursement of $80.6 million. Now, when you take that $80 6 million and you divide it by the total project cost

that's when you get to the 24.7 percent roughly so um so we really got the highest rate available it just only applies to part of the project correct

when spread over the entire project, it comes down.

Correct.

Basically the 84% of the project. What I'm hearing is you guys killed it.

you got as much as possible yeah on the part that is reimbursable yes yeah at our last meeting we were socializing 60 to 80 million and we got more than that so it's like 20 to 25 percent is what we were shooting for.

How does the unreimbursable portion compare to other building projects?

MSBA, Apples and Oranges if it's not an MSBA project.

Yeah no like MSB projects so like um if we were if this project were being done in Lowell or other communities that get a higher reimbursement rate as the start, the base factor. They might be getting up to 50% total reimbursement I visited a high school project in Revere where they're putting in geothermal wells. They are getting approximately 50 percent in their total reimbursement that's pretty high.

But we're starting with the 31 as a base rate, they're starting at something much higher to be 70%.

I guess, right. So I'm asking we start at 31 and add 5.89 but basically we go from 42 down to 24.

Because your denominator changes?

because you're building bigger, right? No.

Because your denominator changes.

What's in the denominator?

Well, in this slide if you take $185 million and you multiply it by 42.74 that's where you get to the 79.8 million and assuming we get the potential contingency of 1.6, that brings us to 80.6 million Now, when you divide that $80.6 million by $324.6 which is the total cost of 325.4 excuse me and the total cost of the project, that's where you get 24%.

So the difference between $325 million and $188.9 million is what's being spent but not being reimbursed for?

Correct. Mostly because of the caps. Mostly because of the per square foot cap, like that's the big delta. every square foot of the building is only reimbursed on a six hundred and five dollar square foot basis. Building costs are over nine hundred dollars a square foot so everybody is subject to that haircut because the MSBA wants to spread their money as far as they can so just just to clarify for people who

If the project had cost less, you would not expect that the reimbursement would have been higher.

If the project was a lower square footage, which I mean that is a fantasy hypothetical because then it doesn't fit our educational program. They don't reimburse anything on things that don't fit their educational program but for hypothetical every square foot. You know, if you make it smaller, it's not like all of a sudden they're going to reimburse you $800 of the $900. Every square foot is taking a haircut of a third for every project.

So it's $605 a square foot? for the building, for the cap. They don't reimburse about that for anyone, any community. $42 a square foot for demolition of the building and $73 for the site work. So anything above that is ineligible, basically. That's why no district gets full reimbursement.

and I don't think that they expect in today's construction market that you could build a building for $605 per square foot. That is just the cap and it does increase over time. In fact, its increased substantially over the past decade. We were in 300 Williams. So they have increased it, but it remains a cap.

Is that clear? Because we understand there's been confusion, so we just want to make sure everyone understands.

Let's look at the comparison of the base.

Why don't we jump two slides ahead? I want to go to the next one.

Oh, did I skip a slide?

I'm sorry.

Well, it was a summary of what we were just talking about.

Yes, well covered. We got it.

We think Elisa is going to round out the conversation.

So I think it's really important that the community understands this as well. The project that's on the table, that's been approved by the MSBA is a six through eight new construction building if The override vote does not pass at town meeting and in the community. and we choose what people are calling the cheaper option, that is a base repair. and in addition to High Rock. And I just think it's important that people understand that building a new Pollard is fully estimated, that is all in costs A base repair and a high rock addition will not be eligible for MSBA money.

The cost in the PSR phase for the base repair for Pollard is $152.2 million. That money would essentially be spent to replace the modulars, to do code upgrades, so to put in sprinklers and to put some of the ADA compliant features that are missing. but it does not change the size of the cafeteria, for example. It does not changed the size auditorium so you're still not able to put a classroom in there it doesn't add any square footage. Every classroom in the building is still too small, so it does not solve any of the problems A high rock addition to solve the space problems there when we did the master plan was estimated at about $59 million.

Swingspace for Mitchell, which is another important and needed project. If modulars were that we started to build them in January, they were estimated at $40 million. We don't have a good estimate for what they would be and whatever it would look like if we have to go to this to this option, but this is very conservative and low number. You can see with the MSBA reimbursement you already on the base repair plus high rock addition are over the new Pollard proposal project that's on the table right now. Importantly, again it does not meet the educational plan. The construction phasing would be about 10 years of what they call summer slammers where they're kind they're coming in, in June and doing as much as they can.

And then pulling back out for September 1st it is constant students moving around the building and trying to avoid the construction spaces and again because this plan just replaces the modulars we would need to replace them again in 20 years. there's been some talk in the community about you know vote no now and yes in the spring. There is no yes in plan that will be ready for the spring. And that is a cost that is not in here of just cost escalation as you push out for each additional six or 12 months, it would truly be going back to the drawing board and coming up with this you know as much as we could around this plan

But I find it hard to believe that if the community is not going to approve a new building that meets our needs for $245 million, that they're gonna be particularly happy about spending more and getting less.

I would just add to that, Madam Chair, and then we'll conclude that this repair like this as outlined here affects three generations of middle school students. for 10 years. Additionally, there will be operating costs that are unknown just to maintain a safe environment at both schools and quite frankly at High Rock I don't know where we put kids while you're doing an addition at High Rock. There's so many unknowns in what is supposedly a cheaper option that I think you would need to spend significant time certainly not this spring if this were voted down to come up with a different plan that's going to look very different have different costs escalated cost perhaps and not meet the educational program, which the MSBA concluded was an exceptional educational plan that they supported and were proud to go through.

Can I also confirm, it was my understanding that the MSAA offer is good for 120 days.

That's correct.

So that doesn't get us to spring?

No, and if the community said well we don't want to do this project that's before you, the MSBA will walk away and say then you have to start all over again. they're not going to work with the town for an adjustment to the plan that they voted on. The plan they voted is the plan they will fund. Any deviation from their plan, they will not participate in.

And 89 would be? not available later.

Could I just caution against It feels like there's a bit of a fear campaign. I don't think people like being put in that position. I would encourage you to talk about the merits of this project, and people will vote based upon the merit. The dichotomy that you're presenting between the base repair, and this. Those are the extreme options because we had seven options in betweens

none of those once you move to a six through eight configuration so that you avoid the swing space at Pollard costs and you avoid high rock addition, none of I do hear you and as the person who is often in front of people and talking to them, are afraid right now because there are community members that think we can just go back to the drawing board and get this down to $200 million. That is a fantasy that does not match with current construction costs. And I would love to buy a gallon of gas for $1 and a gallon milk for $150, That is not an available option.

And so I'm not trying to frighten people, but it is really important that there's accurate information out there that this is the plan and We're not going to be able to just go back and shave $20 or $30 million off. That's not an option.

And people have all sorts of reasons for voting one way or another, like you're right cost is one reason. For me it's I'm really focusing on the educational spaces. As I've said, there are three fewer classrooms than existing general classrooms. The media center is 22% smaller, two fewer art rooms than existing facilities and they're smaller, 27% smaller collectively. Five fewer art work rooms, collectively 13% smaller. And three fewer band chorus rooms, 36% smaller than existing facilities. I just want to make sure that what we're building is as good or better than what we already have. That is important to me.

And that's what we presented today. I feel like we addressed that and all those concerns.

and the MSBA I think feels that as well. I mean, I hear what you're saying Josh too but it would be similar for people in the community to say well you're only going to have one principal instead of two so it must not be a good program. you're only going to have one nutrition services cafeteria manager, not two. So it must not be a good program. No, instead we're taking these kids and putting them in a building that meets their needs for a long time of this community and more efficient way. And that's what the scheduling does, that's with the room utilization does and it is expensive I mean there's no doubt about that. It's also, I've heard to echo a bit of what but Melissa said, I hear in the one hand there are too few spaces. On the other hand it's too big. So I guess I want to say well which is it? it's right-sized and the MSBA agrees and says that it's one of the better programs they've seen in a while.

I want to be sensitive to the hour because we still have quite a bit covered this evening. And while this is a very important topic, I think that this discussion we've covered So can I just ask you to tell us about the tax calculator? Needhamma.gov slash Pollard, please.

I'll pivot to taking that slide. And actually, we have our Deputy Town Manager Director of Finance to come up because in addition to the calculator there's a memo in your packet regarding school project financing and estimated tax impact. That's an analysis on the impact to the average single family taxpayer. The calculator is an effort to make sure that Needham residents and property owners are equipped with information about understanding the debt exclusion question that will be before them November 3rd. So it is, the tax impact calculator is available right now on NeedhamMA.gov slash Pollard. I am going for brevity, I think to not walk through the model assumptions in the tax calculator. I'm gonna ask if Dave could walk through his memo because of the assumptions underlying the calculator and the memo line.

Madam Chair, the memo does state how the calculator on the website was created. We look at the total project cost that's been approved by the MSBA. That's $225,405,945. Town has already appropriated $2,750,000. That is how we get to the figure that is going to appear in the special town meeting warrant for 322,655,945. in terms of the cost that taxpayers and Needham will need to pay, on the property tax, we look at what's the total exposure. In that assumption, we assume that 100% of the appropriation will be needed to do the project. and that the appropriation will be fully expended.

and based upon that with the reimbursement, that the effective rate of the reimbursements which we've already talked about but it restated again 24.7%, that means that 75.3% of the total project cost we are borrowing. And that's how we get to the figure just under $243 million. That is the number that we look at in terms of what's the cost of financing that. The next factor is that we're not borrowing all the money at once, The project is going to take many years. Should town meeting approve the article and the voters pass the debt exclusion override, final design work will commence immediately in December

with bid documents going out at the beginning of calendar year 2028 and construction mobilization beginning in this spring, April of 2028. then you'd be looking at about two years for construction for the first phase, which is essentially the seventh and eighth graders sections of the building. and then another approximate two years for the sixth grade in field areas of the project. Then there's a run out for closing out costs, commissioning, punch list making sure that everything it was supposed to work is working. so effectively it's a six-year window. So we'll be borrowing money in increments, not all at once. We'll be borrow as we need to meet vendor bills The building design and construction department working with the consultants have done an estimate of what the cash flow requirements would be based upon this project.

that I've just laid out for you, and that's in the memo. The last page, Appendix A that I provided for you. That is the basis of making those determinations of when the town would need to go out to borrow That is something that I showed you in the memo. It's what I anticipated, that new funds or additional funds are going to be needed to borrow to be paying out to vendors. There are assumptions that we're going to roll over the temporary borrowings at times, and then we'll go to market and issue bonds. No bond will be longer than 30 years, but the total duration from when we borrow the first dollar in the spring of 27 to when the last payment is made in 2062, there will be debt outstanding associated with Pollitt School for 35 years.

so to make that clear, no one bond is more than 30 years but the total length of time is 35 years because we're borrowing money at different times. The length of the bonds are going to be between 28 and 30 years. Why the difference is because we're borrowing with temporary financing, and we'll have it in temporary financing for a period of time that counts towards our 30-year calculation.

Thank you.

also as a strategy will be making some principal reductions before we go to permanent bonding. And by doing that, that will mean it will pay down some of the principal cost at a lower rate of interest for temporary borrowing during this time. The assumption is that it will be 4% that the town will be paying. For the long-term bonds, with the exception of the bond we'd be issuing in 2027 where we're assuming a 6% interest rate. All the other bonds, because of number years before will actually be issuing, we are assuming a 7% interest rates. all that develops of what the required amounts at the town will borrow, how much, how the calculation of the annual debt service is. at no time is the town borrowing for the MSBA share because what the MSPA does as we submit our project cost to them on a monthly basis.

They audit those bills, they identify all the eligible costs and they reimburse the town a few weeks later. So we will not need to borrow for the MSBA share. So with that, we then look at the estimated tax impact In Needham, as the board knows since 1988 there has been a split tax rate that is shifting taxes from residents onto the commercial sectors. Commercial industrial personal property but I'll keep referring to it as the commercial sector Generally, how I have presented the impact has been on the average single-family home with a single tax rate recognizing. I took to heart the cost of this project in the business community saying that it seems like you're always understating the costs to the business committee.

In fact, we had someone at Citizen on Citizen Addressing the Board, mention that very fact. So with this assumption, we are showing what the impact would be on the residential taxpayer based upon current tax policy of the current split, which is a full shift onto the commercial sector as well as what the impact would be on the commercial. So when one goes to the calculator online and types in their property address they will see what the estimated tax impact will be for their property based upon today's values, based on today's shift. as well as the business community will also be able to enter their property address and see what they would be looking at in terms of a tax bill. And that is how the calculator is presented there.

The debt service, as I said is going to be over a 35 year period. There'll be a series of years that the annual amount will be increasing on the tax bill. For the average single-family home, when you take into account both the debt that we're currently paying that's been previously excluded which I then laid out for the board to remind them it's a high school. It's the High Rock and Pollard, it's the Williams School, and it's public safety buildings and those that we're already paying what the estimated cost for the Pollitt School, I've shown those impacts. And then I show that total combined with that we would be looking at an increase in the... In what?

additional taxes a homeowner would be paying, and for seven years in a row it will be increasing. for the average single-family home, for fiscal 28, the increase will be $37 more than they are currently paying. The Paul Wood School itself, the additional tax impact is $77 on that average single family home. But the existing debt is declining by $40 so the true impact to that taxpayer would be a $37 increase. Then you're looking at the $259 increase in 29 additional taxes this is above um the amount that the taxes would increase under prop two and a half the following years 373 433

is the highest year of the highest increase. That's in 2032, then the rate of increase starts decreasing in 2033, it's $264 more. In 2034 which is going to be the peak year for debt service it'll be $66 more and then starting in fiscal 2035 thereafter, it will start declining with a $54 decline in the average single family tax bill in 2035. and that will continue to happen until 2062.

Madam Chair, that's assuming no additional debt is issued? Of course.

That is assuming no excluded debt, correct?

Or even, sorry is this only excluded? This doesn't include any debt within the levy?

Because that's already within the Levy and the taxpayer is already paying it.

So just to be clear, there is an expectation that debt within the levy will continue to be issued?

Yes. Correct.

And debt associated with debt within Is that the correct?

Continue with the 3%, correct.

Sorry, because the budgets generally increase year over year, the value of the 3% increases year over

Yes.

So it's fair to say that this is not the only source of debt that residents will be paying for?

Well, correct. The residents are paying for debt. They're paying for police officers and paying for school teachers to pay for firefighters that paying for roads to paying for water coming the bank for anything that is provided in the town. Correct?

Yeah. Yes.

the in those factors are built into the two and a half percent increase.

But they're not reflected here?

No, because they're paying any more because it's already in the prop 2 1⁄2 amount

not in terms of percentages, but in terms Taxes tend to increase year-over-year as expenses increase.

Yes, this is only to service taxes up and beyond what Prop 2 1⁄2 allows the taxes to be, and this requires a voter approval. This could not happen unless the voters approve it. Yes. Thank you

Excellent.

Madam Chair, on the single versus split tax rate I really do like that there's this split tax when you said in the past using a single tax rate the value of using the single tax is because things do change. I think I remember you saying once that if if commercial went away, then you would effectively have a single tax rate. That is an extreme situation but to the extent that commercial has impacted more under a split tax rate there is a risk that the shift is not as great. In other words, residents So if commercial is impacted and there's less commercial, residents do bear more of that expense than they would otherwise.

That is the fact that if the commercial sector were to decline, that the amount of taxes that the residential properties can be shifted on the commercial would be less. And therefore yes, residents won't get as much of a subsidy.

David, can I just add to that? Because I think it makes an important point that these are estimates and this is a model. And I think what Dave has been outlining are articulation of kind of how we chose reasonable assumptions at this point in time with the information that we have. But, of course estimates and the reality can change for a variety of reasons you've articulated one the interest rate assumptions we've chosen conservatively that could change up or down so just everyone to be mindful that these are based on reasonable assumptions and but of course they're not assumptions Yes, and we're not predictors of all the variables in the future.

Yeah. Great. Dave thank you for all this work. Thank you. We recognize that particularly with the MSBA vote coming late on their schedule, not according to ours. It means that you have had less time to do this and we really appreciate the work that has gone into this memo and the entire process.

Absolutely. Thank you.

All right, unless anyone has closing The closing argument, I think we have covered this and just want to say again thank you for the very thorough explanations on multiple points. and...

Happy to come back at any time with additional information if that's helpful.

Hi. OK, we're going to restart our meeting after a brief recess. And we will welcome up the Director of Conservation and and conservation specialists. Thank you, I'm so sorry. Hey, and Dave, come on up! Sorry, the chair of the commission. All right so just for the record I'm going to ask you guys to go through and introduce yourselves so that everyone understands who's talking and tell us about this new bylaw that you would like to I'm Debbie Anderson, Director of Conservation.

Thank you.

Timothy Popolo, Conservation Specialist.

I'm Dave Harer. I'm the chair of the Conservation Commission.

Excellent, thanks for joining us tonight.

Thanks for having us. Let her in. So we do have a PowerPoint which will go through very quickly because you know it's late. So we are looking to update our bylaw, just kind of four main revisions I guess. some of the other changes are kind of grammatical or just kind of clarification but as far as new things one of the main ones is adding riverfront area to our bylaw so that is an existing resource area under the Wellands Protection Act regulations and so we do oversee that for for the state in our permits that we issue

We've been finding lately that our jurisdiction right now is just the first 100 feet of that 200 feet. and since we don't have riverfront area as part of our bylaw, we're not able to to use our tree replacement policy in that second 100 feet because that's not under our purview currently. because we don't call out riverfront area as one of our resource areas. So that's the main reason that we want to add that, because we do have a tree replacement policy as part of our regulations which is mainly a two-to-one tree replacement if they're removing a tree that's within our jurisdiction. They need to replace it with two. So we're trying to capture that in the second hundred feet of this riverfront area, that we don't currently have under our bylaw.

So it's not a new area as far as being regulated. It is already regulated under the Wellands Protection Act. We're just trying to capture that trace removal specifically under our bylaw so that is one of the main ones we're also adding vernal pools as a resource area Yeah, can you teach us about Bernal Poles? Maybe we can use the slides as an aid. The slides, since Tim worked hard putting together the slides, we should utilize them.

I guess we're on 6.2 jurisdiction, so we'll pop ahead a couple of slides Yeah, so Vernal Pool added to the list of resource areas. They are implicitly protected as an isolated wetland with significant habitat value but on the next slide just basics of vernal pools. It is a wetland that only exists some time of the year, meaning of the year, it may not appear as a wetland and may not have explicit protection unless there was withstanding knowledge that has this function in value. So this is just a way to make sure We can protect these adequately as a natural heritage and endangered species qualified area.

So vernal pools are basically they, vernal you know kind of means spring so they usually show up in the spring. They fill with rain water and there are certain salamander, frog species and other species that utilize these temporary pools to breed and take advantage of them not being fished to eat their eggs and such. So that's why they're important because they are temporary and part of the life cycle of these creatures that live up in the forest for most of the year, but then meet in these pools in the spring. So currently under the Wilderness Protection Act they're not really protected just for the sake of being a vernal pool, they need to be within an additional resource area. So we're calling it out in our bylaw updates so that we can have our own protection of them that isn't covered under the Wellness Protection Act.

So are vernal pools marked someplace? I mean, how would someone know if they had one if it wasn't spring?

Right. So wetland scientists, you can see signs of it at other times during the year if you know what you're looking for but in order to be certified under the natural heritage and endangered species and others who are part of the Wetlands Protection Act. have certain numbers of egg masses and such to prove that they're actually being utilized by these species to breed. So in order to get certified, you need to have the backup information, photos and such. um in order for them to be certified so they're not necessarily protected by the state if they're non-certified but we can protect them under our bylaw

and the state does also have a list of potential vernal pools which is extrapolated through aerial LIDAR so they're able to find depressions that will collect this

And they do show it on mass mapper as a layer of certified or potential vernal pools.

Potential doesn't have protections, but it would tell us to investigate further and that may be an currently uncertified Vernal Pool.

I know everyone has access to those maps, but not everyone uses them. Would a property owner if they didn't use those maps know that they had a Vernal pool?

they may just know that they have a big puddle in their backyard that gets loud every spring.

Right, it's true. So do we have a sense of maybe this is covered? Maybe I should just stop asking questions and let you do your slide. But I guess one thing that I'll be interested to know is if we have an estimate of how many properties this might affect. It seems like the Vernal Pool thing might effect more potentially than the riverfront? I don't know, there's only so much room. No.

The majority of vernal pools in Needham are within the Needham Town Forest.

Right, and we have some at Ridge Hill So as part of, I'm a wetland scientist and Tim's a wetlands scientist in training so we know what to look for on properties. For instance the 128 project we went out to learn about that when they were kind of giving a tour to everyone. And they were talking about isolated wetlands, so I said well you know it could be a vernal pool and you're not going to know that until next spring so you know kind of putting it out there to let them know. So we know what to look for, so if people apply for permits and we go out and do our site visit then we would know if it was a vernal fool but it's similar to just wetlands in general people usually unless they see water

They don't think that they have any jurisdiction on their property because it's determined by soils and plants. So if they don't necessarily see it, so it's difficult to kind of educate the public unless you know it's happening to them and they find out another way that they may have a wetland on their property

OK. I'll let you continue with your presentation.

Oh, sure. Forgive the interruption. No worries.

Because then the next slide gets into the riverfront area

Yep, so this is the 200 foot riverfront area. Most of the time, that 200-foot riverfront area starts at the bank of a perennial stream that flows all year. But sometimes that bank isn't that well defined and the water overtops where that thing would be you know at certain times during the year and that's called mean annual high water so if that occurs in certain areas then that 200 foot riverfront area would start there instead of you know where the bank of the stream would be so we put together the GIS map showing which parcels that this might affect. Once again, they're already affected because the 200-foot riverfront area is under the Massachusetts Wetlands Protection Act. But as far as us accessing that second half

the GIS map, which... Next slide. Right. So this kind of shows for Rosemary Brook, for example is what the map is but it shows parcels within 200 feet of the bank of Rosemary Brooke in this instance which is very channelized, I think as we all know because we have to repair the channels quite often. So about 1435 parcels in Needham fall within the 200 foot riverfront area, which is the red. And of those, 944 also fall within the 100-foot buffer zone. Which is what we have jurisdiction under now is the 100 foot.

So this is just kind of giving you an idea of the minimum amount of properties this would affect, because if that mean annual high water line made that line come out further. then obviously it would be further.

I have a question, maybe you've already answered this in a different way but for these extra parcels of red You said it's mainly for trees, the tree protection. But does it mean that if there was a project on these parcels they would have to come before you and seek

they already do.

Every parcel that's outlined there already does have to file an order of conditions for any type That's state law and the state riverfront regulations are very strict. You're limited to a certain amount of increase on your property, impervious, you have mitigation requirements All of that applies for all of those riverfront properties, but only the ones in the blue, the 100 foot have our local bylaw applied. That also requires tree protection The state has no tree protections, meaning the only difference between functionally the blue and the red are the red ones file the same permit before the Conservation Commission without any tree protection requirements.

OK. And so if the mean water level? Mean annual high water. Mean annual higher water changes, it changes

for everybody statewide.

For everybody statewide, regardless of our local regulations.

This is primarily the numbers here were figured just based off of aerial imagery and not true delineation on the ground to get these figures for a map for you all.

Right. So we're really only just trying to get our tree replacement in the 100-200 foot. That's it?

that's why we're trying to add this to our so that's the main impact and I'm sorry is this you think that it's approximately 1,400 parcels that are affected by the riverfront overall in Needham and sorry do we don't think that there are significant numbers of vernal pools that would impact Parcels? You said those are the market towns.

No, we're talking a dozen or so properties potentially.

All right, and how would people become aware of that?

usually when they're looking to do a project.

File a building permit, demolition permit and we review those.

Right. but honestly I think probably most of the vernal pools in Needham are pretty well known at this point and they've either been certified or

are marked as potential.

Yeah, I don't think there's very many that are kind of.

And so discovering a vernal pool on your property would change your use of that property how? What would you what would change about what you could do with it? Well usually, so for those 12 parcels what changes?

Well, it would be impacted if and when an applicant would propose a construction.

Right, they would have to have erosion control barriers so that nearby work doesn't... Building a teardown or something like that.

Okay but that's sort of in the normal course?

They would have the same protections as a pond would.

Keane.

But it's not an area that's covered under the Wetlands Protection Act unless it's a certain size, which would be something called isolated land subject to flooding. Then it's covered Under the Wetland Protection Act but if it's a smaller pool then it doesn't get any protection from anyone so are we that sounds like weird

are trying to do something that the state hasn't done today. Are we allowed to do that?

Absolutely, that's like the fundamental reason why towns have local bylaws.

That's not exceeding state standards.

That's what we're supposed to do.

The Wetlands Protection Act establishes a floor for local wetlands bylaws to build upon.

yes so we have already there's a hundred foot buffer zone to wetlands or streams and such So we already have the first 25 feet of that as a no disturbance area. That's our local bylaw says that. if we think it is wildlife habitat, we can extend that to 50 foot no disturb. So we're already utilizing that we can have stricter rules then and some towns have a hundred foot no disturb you know there's just each town kind of comes up with their you know, how strict that they want to be with it.

Okay folks sorry I've been like asking a lot of questions please chime in

I think I just want to see the whole presentation then come up with questions at the end.

Fair, fair bill sorry all right no

So next slide. This is just a quick way to illustrate the riverfront area. The dark green is where our local jurisdiction is applied, the light green is the state regulations Levy. State regulations apply to both the 100 and 200, but again if all three of these houses wanted to build a 3-car garage The trees in the dark green by the river would need replacement on the property. Currently, in the light green those trees do not need to be replaced they can be clear cut without consequence and then see the third house, those two trees outside of the riverfront area are outside of The Wetlands Protection Act to begin with. so we're not exceeding the state permitting thresholds already and all three of these houses regardless of our bylaw would need to file a more

there's more so now I guess the easier ones

So currently we don't have a mechanism in our bylaw to require applicants to pay for third party review. and lately with the stormwater bylaw updates. And so we're lucky enough to have an engineer as our chair, He's comfortable with the single-family houses and reviewing that, but we would like to have this added to our bylaw so that in the instance that it's a larger project or something that we would to have a third party review, we'd like the mechanism to do that. So that is what that is about.

oh so this is mainly um we had a requirement that all the different boards needed to be notified or be given a copy of a permit application which we found that most of these boards aren't interested in getting every single one. So, we kind of internally share things between the departments that would be an interest so are kind of getting rid of that requirement as far as needing to circulate it.

I guess I'm on board with everything so far, but this seems unrelated and kind of like a use it or lose it form of feedback. Just because boards haven't given feedback doesn't mean in the future they might not, so I guess I would recommend... not altering this section too much? Because it doesn't seem necessary to do the tree preservation and the environmental protection.

Not sure I'm getting it.

It seems unrelated to the other changes, and it also seems unnecessary to the others.

Well, I think we felt that if we're coming before the select board and hopefully before the town meeting to make some changes that we try to clean up some things don't make sense any longer and the revision I think is more to say that if a board has jurisdiction they'll get a copy of it but if there's no jurisdiction then you know

And email would be an acceptable way for us to share plans with another board where previously it would have to be certified mail or hand delivery only, according to this.

By the applicant to every one of these boards

most of which but as a matter of fact every the two boards that might have jurisdiction would get all the applications first anyway like those EBA and

But I guess if it's just a matter of notification by email, which is a great idea. It's easy. Why not just notify everyone? You're right, I've never commented on a decision by the Conservation Commission. But I wouldn't want to relinquish that ability.

I don't think it does that. It does say other boards. That's just not specific.

Well, other words having jurisdiction. So I guess the select board will not always have jurisdiction it sounds from this language.

Well, I don't think they ever had jurisdiction, right?

So then effectively we'd be giving up our ability to comment on most cases.

No, I think anybody can comment. So there's the ability to come in which everybody has and then there was a notification which every hearing that we have has a public notification.

Yeah, I think just feedback that we've gotten from very it's like if I talk to planning board staff and say do you want to get every single application that we get in sent to you? And it's like, no. We're not even going to look at it. Just let us know if there is something that is under our purview. So it's basically feedback from different boards saying we really aren't interested in getting every application that you get, which is what this requirement is. Could I also add some notifications that the select board does get is if

and a applicant has to notify abutters, and the town is an abutter. Those notifications come to me, and I send it to the select board if its property that we own. so that's an example of a time where like maybe you would have jurisdiction as in abutter and those notifications would continue even under this change but routinely the common viola says the select board will be notified for all

in hard copy, certified mail.

I don't care about the hard copy. Yeah, I like electronic.

We get these good applications that we can have them sent to you.

All of these are public documents and they're all publicly noticed so it seems as though and they're all on our website review them without an email notification necessarily yeah but it's not just about the review that this sentence says the

Commission shall not take final action until boards and officials have had 21 days from receipt of notice to file written comments and recommendations with the commission. So it's just removing that provision, and I don't know why that provision is being removed.

I just think to streamline it, we want to get things done. We don't want to not look at them but we want them in a streamlined process so anything to streamline the process would help.

Are you generally utilizing the 21 days?

We're under a strict 21-day timeline. where we have a legal obligation and if we do not hear an item within 21 days, we can be subject to appeal and court appearances. So having for 21 days and not being able to take action until that, and some lapse in communication where We can't have the hearing because we didn't hear the feedback that we solicited within the 21 days now takes us to court.

Right, I guess I'm just asking The alterations that you're making are to more truthfully make the process match what's actually happening. So practice has borne out the boards who need to be notified are the ones that comment. Exactly.

Does the existing practice work?

Yes, it does when it's something that- Well you probably notice that you don't get

most of the, I mean there's literally one consultant I think that actually follows this. No one else really sends it to all the boards.

But in the spring we sent the water and sewer because it was one that had their interests engineering we coordinate with zoning and planning so it's regular practice and this is to because that's up there streamline modernize and bring practices in line with current practices I mean I think

if the MWRA project was impacted by this for example that's something we'd want to know about but otherwise yep the conservation commission is the agency or the department with jurisdiction and expertise.

Correct, I'd like to think so.

So while we might want to ask questions I feel like the public notification is enough for me.

I think this is separate. This is governance. Like, if it goes to town meeting as a tree protection bylaw, I think it's a simple no-brainer. I think that muddies the waters and

well we just figured since we have the opportunity that we might as well yeah this has been on the to clean up list for years and you don't want to go after the schools again next time but um

And do any other colleagues have, I think you have at least one more slide but does anyone else have a?

Press on.

So I guess the last major revision enforcement

Yes, so this is already in the Massachusetts. It's already a Massachusetts law and I've noticed other commissions, I printed out Dover's bylaw that they have this in there. And so this is basically if someone purchases a property and the previous owner had you know filled a wetland in or clear cut the property or something like that um someone purchases the property within three years they come to us looking for a permit to tear down the house and build a new one and if during that time we notice that there's this violation on the property, at that point you can enforce it through the new owner to remedy the situation. So that's already a law.

It's not we're not making anything up, we're just putting it in the bylaw so that people are aware that this exists.

So there's no nonconformity? like a property that can't be come back? After three years.

Yeah, three years is it like a three-year kind of a blowback. All right.

what the sale triggers, the three-year clock or the work?

The time of violation.

Okay thank you

So those are the main.

Now we're just on to questions.

This red outline does say, though, within three years following the date of acquisition. Right. Never mind. I'm sorry. It is the date or acquisition.

Yes. How would a purchaser know? They probably wouldn't. They probably don't, yeah. So if we would find out if they came to us for our permit within that three years and I'm not anticipating that the Conservation Commission is going to start you know Micro, looking at all of these things. It's more like a big violation

Yeah, we've seen violations.

And this is already on the books.

This is just a way to make it more visible and clear that So every time a property is sold It triggers a new clock, is that how it works?

If it's within Wetland's jurisdiction.

Yep. So it could be a decade after the violation but if it was sold within three years then the owner can be penalized

I guess that depends on the DEP enforcement manual if it is a one-time or ongoing violation. If it was a one time violation 10 years ago, that three year look back won't affect that

right so it's a difference between you know cutting down trees which is kind of a one-time thing but if you're filling a wetland we can find for every day that that fill is in there currently until it's removed you know under our own enforcement that we have now if it's something like that

So owner, you're the real estate guy. I don't know how that works.

It is complicated because it was done 10 years ago and I buy the house today. The way this written, it has three years so we might need to look at that language

It's literally the language taken from the state. We didn't make this up, it's already...

So Massachusetts Wetland Protection Act any person who purchases, inherits or otherwise acquires real estate upon which work has been done in violation of these provisions as the paragraph reads.

So the purpose of adding it to the bylaw is

to make people aware. So if there is an instance that there's a serious violation and someone has purchased a property, We can't go out. Everything goes with the property, so we can't back and chase the previous people. because it's a violation of Llewellyn's Protection Act that needs to be remedied, if we discover within three years of someone purchasing a property then it could be on them to remedy the situation.

okay so buyer beware

Everywhere, which is already the case. This would just make it more visible and clear where the Wetlands Protection Act is very long.

This is a Mass General.

Yeah, that's not the regulations. That's the act itself.

this is the mass general laws, this isn't what was protection act.

There's a 131 section 40.

but it's under the Mass General Laws. Sorry, having a little sidebar .

Okay so is that the end of the slides? Do you have more? Yes I think so.

So this all seems very easy to us. And as I'm explaining it, I'm just like everyone's looking at me like they're not getting it. So I apologize if it's not coming across.

well no, I don't think that's the case. I mean i think we just have different perspectives on it and we're certainly not as familiar with the ins and outs of this as you are so it's new information for us I guess I just want to express that I think that in itself is a little worrisome to me. because I know that you're having a public hearing at your upcoming meeting, like next week?

Thursday.

Thursday this week. but this is typically when we talk about changing bylaws, we do a lot of sort of public exposure to make sure that everyone understands what's happening here and particularly I understand that what you're telling us is that most of this is already written in mass general law and that we are sort of incorporating it into our bylaw. And I get that that's not changing the situation on the ground, with the exception of the tree replanting that you can then enforce. But I am a little concerned that we don't have enough public exposure of this to make it something that folks are gonna understand by October and October town meeting so I'm just throwing that out there. I don't know if any colleagues have any other issues or concerns otherwise that they might want to bring up.

I mean, I love the idea of the tree enforcement obviously but it just seems a little bit fast because this is we're kind of the policy people that should know about this and if we don't then probably means that there are others who don't as well

I think it's, I don't know if it was ironic or fortuitous but we just talked about the tree bylaw today. and it's funny all of that was like, and there is a cut out for Con-Com stuff because they are taking care of their trees. And then you come to us and say there is no protection from your trees.

Not in that second hundred foot there.

So if that passes

that's the zero regulations at all and it all can be cleared up without consequence right the current bylaw cuts out anything that's under The proposed tree bylaw cuts out anything that's under the jurisdiction of the Conservation Commission? Just so that this second hundred feet that we're talking about can be clear cut with no looking back.

from the tree ordinance or our bylaw protections.

Well, that said that way I think makes it a lot more compelling. like i would start with that because that's why you need it because there is this now we have this loophole you know that's really inconsistent I mean, I think the assumption is and I wasn't on the tree committee but you exempted the conservation land. the idea would be it's protected under the conservation law, but if it actually isn't then we're talking about correcting a major loophole.

Well, the extra 100 feet is exempted today. It can't be enforced, right?

Because we don't have riverfront area as a resource area.

But does the tree bylaw end at the 200 feet or the 100 feet? because the 200 feet is under jurisdiction.

The tree life biologist says that conservation can do what they want in their own jurisdiction, basically.

But that does seem to create the loophole, right?

I don't think it creates it. I think it just doesn't solve it.

Well, if someplace in the outer riverfront otherwise have to follow those new things that be exempt from the new one because they're in conservation jurisdiction which would then make it no restrictions at all. They got exempted from the tree protection by law, only to be put into this no man's land with nothing. where the assumption was that be put into another jurisdiction.

And I'm guessing probably 99% of the conservation commissions in Massachusetts have a riverfront area as a resource area.

because they regulate it and it would be good to have local

Does ours just predate? No, I think... Why doesn't it end there? Well, I mean the last update.

The Riverfront Act which is part of the Wetlands Protection Act didn't occur until after the original. the original right we've updated it a couple times but it was never updated for this particular purpose and so like we were talking about we had several applicants who had this you know second hundred foot and they were cutting down trees, and they even said that's not under your jurisdiction.

Mm-hmm. OK.

I mean, that being the case, I personally would like to see it come at the same time as the tree bylaw.

Well, it makes a lot more sense when passed that way. Yeah. it naturally goes together.

Yeah, and I will also say having been on the bylaw committee, I think once you muck around in a bylaw, you do want to do all fixes

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

This has been very educational. Does anyone have any parting thoughts? thank you very much for sharing this with us and teaching us all about it yes sure

In the spring we can all go look for Bernal pools together.

Excellent, thank you. Thank you guys. Thanks. Next up, we're turning to our town manager.

Great. First item is to close the October 19, 2026 Special Town Meeting Warrant and so from this point forward when you close the warrant no additional articles will be added but some may fall away still. So there's still some placeholders, and I will come back to you at your next meeting with any recommended changes based on the current list and just to note, we have three articles related to the Pollard. I just wanted to call out those three The first is the appropriation for the continuation of detailed design and construction that we already spoke about earlier tonight, $322 million. that's the $325.4 million total project costs minus the 2.75 million that was already appropriated for feasibility. The second article related to Pollard is to allow

basically an appropriation of the balance of that 2.75 million if we have any that has remained not spent of the feasibility amount, the 2.7 family if there's a balance this second article would B town meetings approval that we can continue to spend that amount towards the remainder of the project. And I will note that our total project cost does assume that we have fully spent down the 2.75 so we'd like to carry it forward to stay within the proposed budget and then art the third Pollard article is the home rule petition related to article 97 in the use of Warner field and so this is the kind of next step in the local approval process we need to be compliant with article 97 town meeting approval would then advance that home rule petition to the state legislature once we

Can you just give us a very brief overview of what our timeline on this might look like, assuming this is approved by town meeting and the petition goes off? What happens next and what's the timeline for that?

Sure. The legislative session for the state legislature starts back up in January of 27, so they operate on a two-year legislative calendar so this is the start of their next session. So they'll reconvene in January, there will be new members, they have a bill filing in January and then bills get assigned to committees, and legislators get assigned two committees. So we will be in touch with our senator or rep to have this home rule petition filed by our of the state legislature in January of 2027 to start the legislative process at the state level. And I would not anticipate it having a hearing or be moved to passage until much later in the spring, We've talked to the construction team and that timeline keeps us on track with our current construction. So we will obviously

want it to be taken up as early as possible, but just recognizing the legislature's process when they get established in a new session. It takes a couple of months.

Thank you.

and the question on the first article i think i understand the language in here about the energy efficiency renewable energy this is so that any grants that are received don't go into the revolving fund but instead stay with the project is that correct

Correct. For Pollard, any rebates tax credits incentives state federal grants would go directly back towards the Pollard to reduce the debt that we would require and the MSBA does not take like a portion of that third-party funding. We can apply it all.

Thank you.

Yeah. I won't walk through every article but just to say you had requested presentations on some so for any articles you haven't had a presentation on yet those are scheduled for the 22nd we'll have the planning board in on the zoning articles and a few other items and I would appreciate the board's feedback regarding tree, the tree bylaw and the wetlands bylaw that we just heard about there are placeholders for both, and I'd just like feedback on kind of direction of keeping those in versus May. I will also note we can keep the placeholders until the 22nd if you would like to make a final decision about those two articles or any articles. You have one more meeting.

When is the Conservation Commission having their hearing?

This Thursday, the 10th.

I would suggest keeping it in at least until their hearing.

Okay, so moving forward trees and keeping wetlands and we'll discuss the next meeting.

Just while we're on this though Madam Chair you know the special i feel like it's supposed to be a special town meeting so there is some concern that the more articles we have the longer it gets the more it's not as special but can we discuss at the next meeting when we get into the warrant

yeah i mean i think that's legitimate so um we'll see what how we feel about this conservation i'm saying yeah we should keep definitely keep it for now yeah

So I would make a motion that the board vote to close the warrant for the October 19, 2026 special town meeting subject to minor technical corrections to be made by the Town Manager, Town Council and Bond Council.

Did you have any others though that you wanted to mention specifically?

I did not.

I'm just scrolling through the rest of them. Okay. All right, so does anyone else have any comments on the rest of these? All right, then we have a motion on the table. All those in favor say aye. OK, motion passes.

um next up madam chair is select board goal setting for fiscal year 2027 and 28 i want to thank the board for really good discussion on august 15th i find personally those meetings incredibly helpful not just for decisions and prioritization, but to hear your thinking. And I meet back with the team and the project leads to share and what those discussions were so they have context heading into the year. So before you, our two documents there was a discussion regarding the actual goal statements and particularly in the document select board vision and goals FY27 to 28 there was a request that I draft some language for your consideration under goal number six and what is drafted under responsibly governed, the addition of a bullet point

to say that Needham weighs the financial impact of board decisions on residents and businesses. So I'll pause there, and ask the Board to consider adopting with or without that amendment.

it seems like something that we already do. I don't have an objection.

I'm fine. Madam Chair, I move that the such would vote to adopt its fiscal year 2027-2028 vision and goals

Second. And I would just say, I do appreciate that addition. So I appreciated that conversation. Yeah?

Do we have to say as amended since we put that in or?

It's drafted that way so it's good. OK. as presented.

I think in future years, affordability can be expanded. I want to continue having the conversation this way.

All right, all those in favor say aye. Aye. The motion passes.

Thank you. In the second document under this item is the particular initiatives, so there was a robust discussion about what were fixed items that we had to tackle, things that maybe there was a bit more discretion on. We have a list of 33 initiatives and they're not all created equally in terms of time and talent and treasure that will be required for staff or board members. But it's a really important list of priorities, so just in front of you This chart articulates the timeline, so zero to 18 months for items particularly ones that need to get in a budget cycle are categorized there. 0 to 18 months as we can is a new category to try to indicate that we can't do all 33 all at once. So these will kind of, as we get to them pop back up on some of your future agendas

and two items that are related to the budget. And I'll note that, you know, to me, the budget items signal an interest from the board but final budget decisions happen in the budget process in the context of all the other submissions. So our work on these budget items is to make sure that departments are submitting requests on these items so that you have them in front of you and the finance committee has it in front for FY28 budget deliberations. I would ask for your vote if this looks right.

I would just say that, I mean this is kind of stating the obvious but it's so important to prioritize because if you don't otherwise you end up doing nothing. You know what I mean? You can say you're going to do all these things but you can't. Or everything badly. Right or everything bad. It's hard, but I think we did have a robust discussion and we all gave feedback. And it's important to prioritize. Agreed.

There are a lot of things couldn't get to. The conversation was good, but the result was shorter So Madam Chair, I move that the Select Board vote to adopt its fiscal year 2027-2028 initiatives as presented. Second.

All right so all those in favor say aye. Aye.

motion passes thank you great um next is uh speaking of the budget fiscal year 2028 uh budget consultation we are kind of in that time of year where The fiscal year changed over July 1. We're closing out the last year, we're starting a new year, and planning for next year. So I would ask if Dave and Cecilia want to come up briefly? I first want to thank them in advance because the heavy, heavy lifting of our very robust it's driven by these two and a lot of guidance goes in along the way to make sure that we have some thoughtful

budget planning and requests in front of us um i just want to share a couple thoughts but mostly wanted to hear from the board um just any thoughts that didn't come out in the retreat um but big picture i was looking back at the things that were on our mind budget-wise last year, and a lot of them are largely the same. So in the sense of cost trends we had three labor contracts that were expiring last year. We're facing the expiration of three new ones. So this is on your goals list and, of course, this is a number of our employees and their salaries and wages for the next three years so obviously a big budget item as well So we'll be thoughtfully planning for those renegotiations. And we have the compensation and classification study underway for all of our employees except for public safety,

and that will give us a sense of our positions classified correctly relative to the responsibilities that one position has relative to other. but also what is our competitiveness in the marketplace and are wages keeping track trend with comparable communities. We try to do this every five years our last conference class was around the pandemic. So this will be useful information for us to have as we're thinking about the budget. health insurance costs had been going up there's still a point of concern and constraint that we face without a lot of tools available to us so we'll be thinking about that in the year ahead and I would add to that ongoing discussions around tariffs and fluctuations in fuel pricing. Revenue side, the volatility at the federal level and what that might mean to the state budget and to direct grants that the town gets.

Those concerns remain so I don't have kind of anything more to say beyond that but it's just a reflection of things that are on my mind as we're heading into the next fiscal year and wanted to hear your thoughts and the two budget items at the retreat were additional resources to address rats in town. and taking a look at options for the Memorial Park Diamond. But beyond that, if there's any thoughts or questions we're kind of in listening mode.

Well, I know that we flagged it as an area of priority. But the Affordable Housing Trust Fund for me is something An investment in that will yield return for the town. For many years, so I guess I sort of feel like that is one of the items that I'd really like to see accomplished and I'm hoping that we can find a way to find the necessary funding to allow for exploration of that work?

I don't see there's a budget item. And I think we can meet and as the Affordable Housing Trust and do some of that work.

Yes, I know we have differing opinions on this.

I have a question how you plan to allocate the expected revenues? Are you planning to budget for 100% of the revenues. In other words, do expect that the levy will go up to its limit to rise by 2 and 1 half percent And that's the standard practice, right?

That is standard practice and also based upon. would be necessary in order to continue to fund the operations at the same level next year as they are this year.

particularly with rising costs. I mean, health insurance for example.

Notwithstanding that it's just the fact is collective bargaining agreements have been agreed to that go up more than two and a half percent so

but so like taking Ms. Miller's suggestion at the beginning that we allocate new growth for certain projects to the debt stabilization fund, if we did that it wouldn't be available for general fund revenues right?

Actually, what I heard her say is an extraordinary new growth that would happen which has been discussed before and that is still in consideration should some of these major projects come through. that is absolutely in consideration.

So when, in the budget cycle would you need us to make that decision? So like for an existing or a project that would come online in 2020 fiscal 2028 like 100 West Street, for instance. When do you need us to make that decision to do your budgeting?

We will have a sense of even if that will happen by December because new growth is determined on December 31st. And we'll know if any projects have moved along far enough that there will actually be revenue in 2028. I'm not anticipating any substantial new growth for fiscal 28. Fiscal 29, more likely fiscal 30. Some of the initial discussions for the former Muzzy site actually were to come to fruition. That's also, we're looking at 2030 and 2031 which would be an ideal time because that is

also one we'll be looking at some higher debt amounts but maybe we can just have a discussion in November or something about any projects that are expected to come online in 2028

Correct, if something happens. But we basically building season that will impact 28 is almost done.

I don't have a complete picture of what would be there. But it'd be good to see, because I don' want to have to wait until a Muzzy project to be able to use this mechanism. Smaller projects could help defray the costs

But that's extraordinary new growth, not the expected new growth.

Additional rooms being built on the house is not one is needed in order to fund continual operations. Again, we're one of the few communities in the last several years that has not needed an operating override because we work based upon our predictable revenue stream The other factor is they have a meaningful difference. It has to be a significantly large project. A portion of West, depending upon the timing when that can be captured could assist. But again we'll have a better sense in November than we do and Grant that is only eight weeks away, but that's when we'll have a better sense.

Thank you. It's fair to say that this has always been considered for these larger projects, for the Pollard project?

That's been the mantra for years. But we just haven't acted upon it. So I want us to act upon it!

Well, I mean, we haven't reacted on projects that don't exist.

There's been pushback on doing it, the debt service stabilization fund idea that came about a long time ago and then nobody wanted to do it.

Right, so it was enacted two years ago in recent memory.

The Debt Service Stabilization Fund.

The change in the language, the debt service stabilization fund.

It didn't significantly change the concept. I was just making it quite clear that was always the intent but but decisions were made not to do that. Also, say that the money didn't actually get spent either. It didn't get raised.

Thanks Dave. Is that everything or is there more?

I'm addressing your question.

I just want to make sure. I don't want to cut you off. This is very important. All right, well thank you for sharing all of this.

Town Manager report, add briefly two items. A goal that's been on the list for a long time we have finally launched being able to pay for your parking via app in addition to coins, so the coin meters are still available. The app is called Hotspot. So if anyone is interested in no longer utilizing coins they can download the hotspot app and it's been operating under are a soft launch for a couple of weeks. And so far, it's so good. But if anyone has feedback for us, we're all ears and we hope it's an added convenience and benefit. And we know people were waiting for a long time. So thank you for your patience and come visit the Center in the Heights.

Thank you.

in my second item I just want to make sure we note the remembrance ceremony for the 25th anniversary of 9-11 that'll be on Friday September 11 10 a.m at the Public Safety Building and at the corner of Chestnut and School Street. And it's hard to believe it's been 25 years, but really an important moment to mark.

all right so the next item on our agenda is our town manager performance evaluation um we are thrilled to have had Katie King as our Town Manager for the past year. It's the first year in her contract, and the process here is that all select board members fill out this very black and white evaluation form, and submit it. We compile all of the results to provide. And I would just like to say that having worked with Katie this year, this past year as chair and again. It's just been intensely rewarding watching you grow into this position I mean I think

you were spectacularly prepared to be in this position, but it's been just very rewarding seeing you sort of blossom. I think your fantastic. and I think that the feedback that the board provided shows that is of the consensus opinion. Speaking to my colleagues, however , I'm gonna observe as Marianne Cooley might have said, and as she did say several years ago when she was chair that Katie is fantastic. But she is not perfect, as Kate was fantastic but was not perfect and it behooves us as managers to provide her the feedback that she deserves in order to facilitate her work. So I love that everyone thought that she was so fantastic, but it is important

also be realistic and share with her the minor things that you know, meet expectations. I didn't think that I would say this but now that I'm in Mary Ann's shoes I observe that it is much harder to to provide the feedback that I think is really useful if we if we just say that across the board, she is fantastic even though of course that's true. So colleagues as we move forward provide feedback because I think everyone can use the feedback and push to become better at everything that we do. All of us, and Katie as well. So I would, I guess, open it up. I don't know how this conversation is actually managed.

I think that I've ever been in charge of this before because we didn't do this last year because it was Kate's last year. So I don' t know if anyone just wants to to make a comment on either the document or to Katie.

Madam Chair, I will just say that I sleep better at night with Katie as our temperature. and I'm very grateful. And I thought, Madam Chair that you did a great job writing the feedback.

Yeah, I would add The takeaway from this year that was a year of transition, and it went seamlessly. I mean we went from our high functioning town manager and her stepping away left a lot I love unanswered questions or wondering what was going to happen. And I think none of those concerns I think everyone was absolutely fine with it. You stepped in fine, you managed it smoothly and graciously, and you brought some joy to it too. So we did great. If that was the theme of a year of transition, you did really well.

Well done. I think you managed to juggle so many priorities at the same time, and not just things on the goal list but new things that we throw at you that you have implemented and integrated very quickly. The grant that I kind of hounded you about, the quiet zone Thank you. I know I was a pain about that. When we were talking about immigration and how we deal with federal officers, that was new. That was something very different. So I think that they're, I enjoy working with you. There's a lot that I am so impressed by The one thing in my comments that I was really disappointed by was Steven Palmer, and I think

it got to a place, we're now in a place where people have been displaced and we didn't need to get to that place. And I've told you this privately, I guess for future going forward I think that there are ways that we can deal with really big issues and think about alternatives in a way We can arrive at a better place. So that's what I hope for in the future.

Yeah, I would just...I don't want to turn this into a rebuttal. everyone that the direction is set by this left board and Katie's job is to execute on the instructions that we give her. So I hear that you felt there were some issues there but I think that the bone to pick is probably with your colleagues. who gave the direction and that direction was executed.

I'm happy to pick multiple bones, I think here this one like the recommendation did come from the town manager so Bill?

I, being the rookie you know I really appreciate Katie. You know I thought I knew a lot but I don't know that much so it was It's invaluable for me to call up Katie and say, can I set up a meeting with you? Can I set-up a meeting wth you? And she answered a lot of my ridiculous questions. Probably thought what are you doing or how do you not know this? So I really appreciate her helping me out the biggest thing to me that I've seen with you know shifting and doing things is this you know the Pollitt article 97 because to me when that came up it's just like i i i just couldn't believe it blew my mind that this actually is coming up because The field is still going to be the field and everything's gonna be the same. But she just, I don't know how she felt but she just took it and took care of it. And it was very timely and had to be done timely and she just did that. I remember being called on the weekend, I won't tell you what I thought but she knows.

But it was fantastic of her to be able... That problem come up and take care of it so quickly. So, thank you.

I think overall we are incredibly lucky and aware of it so thank you for everything that you do

Madam Chair, I move that the Board vote to approve the Town Manager Consensus Evaluation Overview Document dated September 3rd, 2026. Second.

Excellent. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Okay, so the next thing on the agenda is the select board member committee appointments. so there is a vacancy on the future school needs committee which should be assigned to a sitting select board member as well as expiring appointments for sitting members on the future school needs committee and subcommittee to study the Miniman School. So I guess we're looking for volunteers first off

Yes, and we may have competing interests. Yeah, exactly. Bill and I were speaking, we both are interested in serving on the Future School Needs Committee. I guess I would ask of the members whose terms are expiring is there interest in continuing to serve on those committees as well?

I think it was Marianne, wasn't it? Marianne was one and me.

And you can... I'm happy to serve but if... You know whatever works out but I'm not going to serve.

Are there two members?

Yeah, two members. Two members.

I mean the reason I was interested besides being an important committee, I think that I have not been assigned to any committees yet from the select one. I know there are a lot of those but I thought this would be a good one to do as my first one, so that's why I expressed interest in it.

And I'm kind of interested because I'm the only member of the board with school-age children, so I think that would be good insight and perspective All right, so that knocks off two. So they're meeting twice.

Who's on the Minuteman? I'm on Minutemen, but Marianne was also on Minitemen, so...

but there's only one, is it only one seat on Minutemen that's turning over?

Well I was planning to continue. Oh I understand. And Marianne obviously is not on it anymore.

That seems good to me.

And is this, we had changed a number of our appointments to designees. Does this require a sitting select board member? I'm sorry, what? The subcommittee to study the Minuteman School.

There was a slot board seat so it sounds like we're retaining it.

So there's just one? Yes.

Oh, I'm Sorry, I misunderstood.

We had two people on it.

There is one formal seat. Did you take Marianne's seat?

Well, I'm just confused. Both Marianne and I were both on it. So I'm just confused.

And did you say you want to stay?

I'm happy to stay on it.

Perfect.

But does that mean we don't have an audience?

This agenda item was to reappoint you if you wanted to continue to serve, so I don't believe there's an additional seat.

Yes, I'm happy to continue.

I guess i would move that the board vote to appoint bill dermody and joshua levy to the future school needs committee and kathy dowd to the minute man reappoint subcommittee to study them in school yes

Zach, can we do that one more time? Sure.

Why not?

All right so everybody involved is happy with the situation okay great all those in favor say aye excellent the motion passes thank you for your service on that committee and good luck All right, so committee reports is our last agenda item here. And we'll just start

So I was lucky enough to go to the Y175th anniversary and represent the town. It was pouring rain. but they invited us to go up on the stage. Paula, who's the director of Y was very happy I saw her recently because I think we were the only town that has a Y that had a representative there Oh, really? There was some politicians from the city of Boston that might have been there but she was very happy that we had a representative. So it was a great celebration, great day I just wish the weather would've been better.

Very good. Anything else? No. Okay, Josh?

I attended the Overdose Awareness Day Vigil with many of my colleagues and it was as always a good event. We noticed there was a little less Well attended in the past years. I don't know if that's a good sign or not. I mean, I like that there's a lot of community involvement but it was good to note that deaths are of overdose have been down

Indeed.

Kevin? Charles River Chamber of Commerce Needham Knight and then also went to the housing authority Kim Driscoll announced and Bill Jeremy, and I were there. And we met Kim Driscoll, the Lieutenant Governor. It was great. It's a big secure celebration to see that this one thing finally got funded for the state. So it was great. Incredible.

Kathy? Tea Chalk Met was just a minor reimbursement, but I guess I wanted to echo the fact that the Needham Housing Authority winning this grant is absolutely huge when they only give a couple it's highly, highly competitive and the fact that, the state has continuously told us that the fact Needham has so strongly supported them was strongly in their favor. so I think that we as a town should feel good about it, the fact that we voted that money at Town Meeting on several occasions is what put them over the edge. It's very competitive. So it's a big deal.

There are two thank yous of note at that event. One was to town meeting members, that they support this. And the other one is to Reg Foster because he has done so much heavy lifting. So I don't know how he does it, but he deserves a round of applause. And he got one actually as well.

Well, so I attended Needham Night at TripAdvisor hosted by the Charles River Chamber. along with a bunch of colleagues. And just wanted to say thank you to the Chamber for organizing that, but also to all of the nonprofits who displayed and for the Chamber making that change and having all the nonprofits there share their stories. The overdose vigil, as you mentioned thank you to the organizers and Plugged In and Town Emergency Services they did a little Narcan Demonstration that I just thought was really helpful. I also attended the annual golf course inspection So thank you to the golf course for hosting that and all the town staff and departments who participated. And thank you for my honey, which was collected from the golf club Bees, and their part-time beekeeper.

And then of course thank you to the golf course for their participation in The Quiet Zone. Pilatt, because that is a very important thing for the town. And then just to reinforce that on Friday we'll have the town observance of 9-11 Memorial coming up at Public Safety and just help me. I think it's at 945. 10. OK, maybe 945 is the show up time. So a 10. So we will mark that occasion. I think that's it unless anyone has anything else? all those in favor aye thank you and good night

Thank you.